Player Discussion Nikolay Goldobin Pt. II

[PG Canuck]

A player is just as likely to play with more intensity and move his feet sitting out vs. actually playing?

Profound logic here people.

If I am Goldobin, I am definitely VERY happy to sit out and watch games. What player doesn’t LOVE to sit and watch games and “learn”?

What kind of backward ass logic is this? You learn the game by playing. You learn anything by doing it.

 

[Melvin]

Someone should make a GIF compilation of goalies making desperation saves on Goldobin.

 

[Bleach Clean]

If I am Goldobin, I am definitely VERY happy to sit out and watch games. What player doesn’t LOVE to sit and watch games and “learn”?

What kind of backward ass logic is this? You learn the game by playing. You learn anything by doing it.

While I don't discount the use of the whip over the carrot as a teaching tool, the utilization of each has to be tailored to the player. The whip doesn't seem to be working for Goldobin, it seems. He didn't respond in any noticeable way.

When he was going, Green cut him down in the media. Then reduced his ice time. Then scratched him. That's a downwards trend overall. This signals to me that Green doesn't know how to handle this player.

 

[VanJack]

Canucks desperately need scoring wingers, and seems apparent that neither Goldy nor Jake fit the bill. Both guys with multiple glorious scoring chances in this game, but just can't finish. This isn't a one game thing. It seems they need at least six great chances just bury one.

Goldy is supposed to be an offensive winger, but six goals on the season says otherwise. Really the only reliable guy they have is Boeser. And with Baertschi gone, the lack of scoring on the wings is a black hole.

 

[strattonius]

While I don't discount the use of the whip over the carrot as a teaching tool, the utilization of each has to be tailored to the player. The whip doesn't seem to be working for Goldobin, it seems. He didn't respond in any noticeable way.

When he was going, Green cut him down in the media. Then reduced his ice time. Then scratched him. That's a downwards trend overall. This signals to me that Green doesn't know how to handle this player.

The signal is that hes just not that good of a player.

So instead, you blame Green.

I'll never understand this logic.

 

[valkynax]

While I don't discount the use of the whip over the carrot as a teaching tool, the utilization of each has to be tailored to the player. The whip doesn't seem to be working for Goldobin, it seems. He didn't respond in any noticeable way.

When he was going, Green cut him down in the media. Then reduced his ice time. Then scratched him. That's a downwards trend overall. This signals to me that Green doesn't know how to handle this player.

These guys just use stick and carrot as an excuse.

Pathetic.

 

[strattonius]

Canucks desperately need scoring wingers, and seems apparent that neither Goldy nor Jake fit the bill. Both guys with multiple glorious scoring chances in this game, but just can't finish. This isn't a one game thing. It seems they need at least six great chances just bury one.

Goldy is supposed to be an offensive winger, but six goals on the season says otherwise. Really the only reliable guy they have is Boeser. And with Baertschi gone, the lack of scoring on the wings is a black hole.

100%.

Hes utilized as a scoring winger that just cant score. The excuses keep piling up though.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The signal is that hes just not that good of a player.

So instead, you blame Green.

I'll never understand this logic.

What's your logic for determining he's "just not that good of a player"? Advanced metrics? His points rate among his peers on the roster? Something else?

I blame Green because his handling of Goldobin does not seem smart to me.

Canucks desperately need scoring wingers, and seems apparent that neither Goldy nor Jake fit the bill. Both guys with multiple glorious scoring chances in this game, but just can't finish. This isn't a one game thing. It seems they need at least six great chances just bury one.

Goldy is supposed to be an offensive winger, but six goals on the season says otherwise. Really the only reliable guy they have is Boeser. And with Baertschi gone, the lack of scoring on the wings is a black hole.

Goldobin is an offensive winger, he's just not a shooting winger. He's a playmaker.

This is also Goldobin's first full NHL season and he's the 4th leading producer on the team.

I can't believe I'm defending this player because I disliked the trade, but the logic to criticize Goldobin here is weak. Primary points matter more just as much as goals, and he's been fine in that regard.

When trying to project a young player, I look back on his history. In the AHL, he's had multiple seasons where he was pacing for higher than 25 goals over a full schedule. Usually, over time, these patterns bear themselves out. Now, do we have the patience to see where he settles or are we pulling the chute on this player?

 

[whoshouse]

He isn't a good enough play maker to be so inconsistent defensively and so weak on the puck. The fact that some posters on here can't see the difference in how well he's playing now compared to how he was before he was benched is mind numbing. I think he actually played decent this game. He was more tenacious and willing to battle for the puck. I don't mind if he misses a goal here and there as long as he's as noticeable as he was this game. But it's embarrassing that some posters on here fail to acknowledge that there's a difference in his play.

I guess it's hard for people to see things when they're so married to the ideas they formulated 2 years ago.

It's almost like they've never played a competitive sport before. Sometimes you can't just play a player game after game and expect a different result. The only way to teach new habits is by pointing out wrongs right when they happen. And punishing a player when they keep failing to do the things required of them.

Also, no one is bringing up the fact that Goldobin just has an average to mediocre IQ. I would love to be proven wrong and see him become a meaningful top 6 player but the more games we see from him, the less I think he can be a top 6 winger on a contending team.

Or maybe we can just blame his IQ on Green too.

 

[Melvin]

What's your logic for determining he's "just not that good of a player"? Advanced metrics? His points rate among his peers on the roster? Something else?

I blame Green because his handling of Goldobin does not seem smart to me.

Goldobin is an offensive winger, he's just not a shooting winger. He's a playmaker.

This is also Goldobin's first full NHL season and he's the 4th leading producer on the team.

I can't believe I'm defending this player because I disliked the trade, but the logic to criticize Goldobin here is weak. Primary points matter more just as much as goals, and he's been fine in that regard.

When trying to project a young player, I look back on his history. In the AHL, he's had multiple seasons where he was pacing for higher than 25 goals over a full schedule. Usually, over time, these patterns bear themselves out. Now, do we have the patience to see where he settles or are we pulling the chute on this player?

Goldobin has 8 primary points at 5v5 this season, fewer than the much-maligned Granlund and Eriksson. Most of his point production is based on secondary assists.

He has not had a primary point at 5v5 since December 27th against Edmonton. He might be the coldest player in the league in this regard. He has 1 goal and 2 primary assists at 5v5 in his last 21 games

Even if you want to include his PP production, his 15 total primary points at all strengths is fewer than Roussel, Virtanen, and Eriksson

 

[Bleach Clean]

Goldobin has 8 primary points at 5v5 this season, fewer than the much-maligned Granlund and Eriksson. Most of his point production is based on secondary assists.

He has not had a primary point at 5v5 since December 27th against Edmonton. He might be the coldest player in the league in this regard. He has 1 goal and 2 primary assists at 5v5 in his last 21 games

Even if you want to include his PP production, his 15 total primary points at all strengths is fewer than Roussel, Virtanen, and Eriksson

Ok, fair enough, but at least you're away from just goals.

So comparables: You listed Roussel, Virtanen and Eriksson. Good point. Do you consider Eriksson, Virtanen and Roussel better players than Horvat? I just want to get a sense of what you are willing to conclude off of primary points.

Next, here is a list of players that are at a P1/60 of 0.95 and lower (Goldobin is at 0.9):

Borgstrom
Patrick
Tierney
W. Karlsson
Cogliano
Pearson
Fabbri
DeBrusk
Grabner
Burakovsky
Steen
Heinen
Roslovic
Cirelli
Hartman

And so, are we willing to condemn Goldobin's NHL future in the here and now given that list of his peers? This is his first full NHL season. Let's remember this.

 

[strattonius]

What's your logic for determining he's "just not that good of a player"? Advanced metrics? His points rate among his peers on the roster? Something else?

I blame Green because his handling of Goldobin does not seem smart to me.

Hes a one-dimensional forward that can only be slotted in to a couple places in our line up. Is there any wonder why he gets benched? Hes utilized as a scorer and lacks any finish. And for being considered a creative player, I only see very small flashes of it. Hes weak in all zones of the ice - often turning the puck over in the neutral zone or making a poor percentage play offensively.

The only reason he gets ice is because we are so pathetically weak with scoring wingers.

Hes still young and hes definitely improved this year - but for me, this isnt a core piece nor does he have any value on the market. A literal fine a dozen winger. We can find better.

I know I come across very hard on him, but I honestly believe moving ahead with Goldobin is a mistake. I think we can find a much better player that plays this type of role.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Hes a one-dimensional forward that can only be slotted in to a couple places in our line up. Is there any wonder why he gets benched? Hes utilized as a scorer and lacks any finish. And for being considered a creative player, I only see very small flashes of it. Hes weak in all zones of the ice - often turning the puck over in the neutral zone or making a poor percentage play offensively.

The only reason he gets ice is because we are so pathetically weak with scoring wingers.

Hes still young and hes definitely improved this year - but for me, this isnt a core piece nor does he have any value on the market. A literal fine a dozen winger. We can find better.

I know I come across very hard on him, but I honestly believe moving ahead with Goldobin is a mistake. I think we can find a much better player that plays this type of role.

If Benning could find better, he would have already brought that piece here. In 5 years, this is what we have to try. So I say, why not try?

He's not a core player.

He's one-dimensional.

He lacks finish, true.

Yes, I wonder why he's benched. Considering what else is here, I would be benching other options before benching Goldobin. You said it: This team is weak enough at wing to give him a shot. I don't care if he flames out of here, but at least give him the shot to flame out. A real shot. None of this garbage about not playing well enough to stick in the line-up when you're icing players like Schaller, Granlund and even Motte. You can find a spot for Goldobin given that rotation.

 

[Bleach Clean]

He isn't a good enough play maker to be so inconsistent defensively and so weak on the puck. The fact that some posters on here can't see the difference in how well he's playing now compared to how he was before he was benched is mind numbing. I think he actually played decent this game. He was more tenacious and willing to battle for the puck. I don't mind if he misses a goal here and there as long as he's as noticeable as he was this game. But it's embarrassing that some posters on here fail to acknowledge that there's a difference in his play.

I guess it's hard for people to see things when they're so married to the ideas they formulated 2 years ago.

It's almost like they've never played a competitive sport before. Sometimes you can't just play a player game after game and expect a different result. The only way to teach new habits is by pointing out wrongs right when they happen. And punishing a player when they keep failing to do the things required of them.

Also, no one is bringing up the fact that Goldobin just has an average to mediocre IQ. I would love to be proven wrong and see him become a meaningful top 6 player but the more games we see from him, the less I think he can be a top 6 winger on a contending team.

Or maybe we can just blame his IQ on Green too.

I challenge your assumption that he played better this last game than in games before. What's embarrassing is your attempt to dismiss the opinion of those that disagree with you on this.

Your next assumption is in supposing that Goldobin learned something while sitting out that he would not have learned while playing. Or, did not learn while being given paltry minutes and/or benched in 3rd periods. A lot of learning going on there.

Anyway, this is a coach prone to using the stick/whip rather than the carrot. It's not working with Goldobin. I think they should trade him after a few games played because I don't think Green is the coach to bring the best out of him. He hasn't shown that ability to me.

 

[DonnyNucker]

I challenge your assumption that he played better this last game than in games before. What's embarrassing is your attempt to dismiss the opinion of those that disagree with you on this.

Your next assumption is in supposing that Goldobin learned something while sitting out that he would not have learned while playing. Or, did not learn while being given paltry minutes and/or benched in 3rd periods. A lot of learning going on there.

Anyway, this is a coach prone to using the stick/whip rather than the carrot. It's not working with Goldobin. I think they should trade him after a few games played because I don't think Green is the coach to bring the best out of him. He hasn't shown that ability to me.

You always play the victim card with Goblin. He has had enough chances to know he isn’t an NHL player. It was a decent trade at the time but he has failed. Green can’t give the kid a heart transplant. He is simply uninterested in providing a consistent effort

 

[Bleach Clean]

You always play the victim card with Goblin. He has had enough chances to know he isn’t an NHL player. It was a decent trade at the time but he has failed. Green can’t give the kid a heart transplant. He is simply uninterested in providing a consistent effort

Goldobin is the victim of uneven coaching. When you have fringe NHLers like Granlund, Schaller and Motte given roster spot armour, and Goldobin is sat, something is wrong in pleasantville.

If you want to make the argument that those three players are legit NHLers and Goldobin is not, let’s hear it. If even one of them is fringe, and we recognize Goldobin as also being fringe, then how does he get scratched and they don’t? I’ve seen Granlund in particular have some pretty atrocious stretches of hockey. What’s the excuse?

 

[Melvin]

Ok, fair enough, but at least you're away from just goals.

So comparables: You listed Roussel, Virtanen and Eriksson. Good point. Do you consider Eriksson, Virtanen and Roussel better players than Horvat? I just want to get a sense of what you are willing to conclude off of primary points.

Next, here is a list of players that are at a P1/60 of 0.95 and lower (Goldobin is at 0.9):

Borgstrom
Patrick
Tierney
W. Karlsson
Cogliano
Pearson
Fabbri
DeBrusk
Grabner
Burakovsky
Steen
Heinen
Roslovic
Cirelli
Hartman

And so, are we willing to condemn Goldobin's NHL future in the here and now given that list of his peers? This is his first full NHL season. Let's remember this.

you're the one who brought up primary points, saying he's been "fine" in that regard. I'm just telling you he really hasn't been. Primary points has been a serious struggle for him since November.

 

[Bleach Clean]

you're the one who brought up primary points, saying he's been "fine" in that regard. I'm just telling you he really hasn't been. Primary points has been a serious struggle for him since November.

Fair. My thought was that we are isolating goals for a playmaker... why?

He's not doing well in P1/60 either. It's not much better. I'm not sure where that leaves him in terms of fringe player/NHL player? What I know is that on this roster, scratching him consistently will raise eyebrows considering who else is still playing.


Edit: Just to add further data here: Goldobin's p1/60 last year was 1.55. This places him in the top90 among forwards playing at least 400 minutes. 38 game sample to 46 games this year.

 

[Melvin]

Fair. My thought was that we are isolating goals for a playmaker... why?

He's not doing well in P1/60 either. It's not much better. I'm not sure where that leaves him in terms of fringe player/NHL player? What I know is that on this roster, scratching him consistently will raise eyebrows considering who else is still playing.

I don't think it's correct to be sitting him, but the "4th on the team in points!" has been masking some pretty piss-poor offensive production that has been going on for awhile now.

Since December 1, Goldobin has three (3) primary points at ES. He is tied with Jay Beagle and Adam Gaudette. That's one goal and two primary assists, if you're wondering. In two months. There are 292 forwards in the NHL who have more. He's sat a few games but in the games he does play, he typically plays with Pettersson at ES and gets deployed in an offensive role.

The stuff about his defensive play and the moaning about him being scratched has really obfuscated the real story, which is that his production, his primary offensive production has been really, really, really bad. I don't think he deserves to sit over Granlund and Schaller, but typically when a guy is a pure offensive player whose production is buoyed almost entirely by PP play and secondary assists it's a red flag, and for some reason virtually everyone has blinders on about it because "GREEN HATES HIM CAUSE DEFENSE." Like, no, he's a purely offensive "scorer" who can't produce anything at ES.

Green, when asked about it, has made comments that he's basically unplayable when he's not being carried by Pettersson, and you can't play in the NHL if you're that dependent on one guy. I don't always agree with Green but he's right about that. Goldobin is 23 years old, has played 106 games and has shown almost no ability to put up good enough numbers when he's not playing with one of the best players in the game.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I don't think it's correct to be sitting him, but the "4th on the team in points!" has been masking some pretty piss-poor offensive production that has been going on for awhile now.

Since December 1, Goldobin has three (3) primary points at ES. He is tied with Jay Beagle and Adam Gaudette. That's one goal and two primary assists, if you're wondering. In two months. There are 292 forwards in the NHL who have more. He's sat a few games but in the games he does play, he typically plays with Pettersson at ES and gets deployed in an offensive role.

The stuff about his defensive play and the moaning about him being scratched has really obfuscated the real story, which is that his production, his primary offensive production has been really, really, really bad. I don't think he deserves to sit over Granlund and Schaller, but typically when a guy is a pure offensive player whose production is buoyed almost entirely by PP play and secondary assists it's a red flag, and for some reason virtually everyone has blinders on about it because "GREEN HATES HIM CAUSE DEFENSE." Like, no, he's a purely offensive "scorer" who can't produce anything at ES.

Green, when asked about it, has made comments that he's basically unplayable when he's not being carried by Pettersson, and you can't play in the NHL if you're that dependent on one guy. I don't always agree with Green but he's right about that. Goldobin is 23 years old, has played 106 games and has shown almost no ability to put up good enough numbers when he's not playing with one of the best players in the game.

I'm not sure if you saw my edit before posting, but Goldobin's P1/60 number was far better last year at 1.55.

My main defense here is that sitting him over Granlund, Schaller and/or Motte is unacceptable. He's a fringe NHLer like them, but doesn't get treated like them. Whether it's offense only or defense only, fringe is fringe. If you are not good enough to play, you're not good enough to play regardless of style. I don't think that holds with Green though.

I agree with the assertion that it's actually a lack of offense that is putting him in this predicament, not a lack of defense. If he scores a bit more we're not having this conversation. Now, he's in that dangerous middle ground where he's not producing enough and he's not good enough defensively. So what does he do? Listen to the coach or ignore his coach to try and score above everything else?

You can say it's 106 games, but what was Virtanen after his first 100 games?

Goldobin has paid his dues in the AHL and this team isn't deep enough for the coaching to turn up its nose at this player. Play him or get rid of him. Scratching him in misguided effort to get him going is not the answer.

 

[Melvin]

But Schaller has sat plenty of time and Granlund is sitting now. Don't get me wrong I would have never signed granlund after last season but I'm not seeing the inconsistency as green rotates these players.

Virtanen was drafted the same year as Goldy and has been able to out produce him at es without the benefit of Pettersson. And he's still considered a disappointment.

Ironically, Green has arguably done this player some good by taking almost all of the attention off him and taking the blame.

 

[Bleach Clean]

But Schaller has sat plenty of time and Granlund is sitting now. Don't get me wrong I would have never signed granlund after last season but I'm not seeing the inconsistency as green rotates these players.

Virtanen was drafted the same year as Goldy and has been able to out produce him at es without the benefit of Pettersson. And he's still considered a disappointment.

Ironically, Green has arguably done this player some good by taking almost all of the attention off him and taking the blame.

It's completely inconsistent in that Granlund is only now sitting. Schaller has sat, yes. Actually, he could make a Goldobin like case here as well. Motte though has somehow played 51 games...

Yes, Virtanen is outproducing Goldobin at ES this year. I was referencing his first 100 games that sandwiched a 65 game AHL vacation.

Green has done Goldobin no favours. If Green really wanted to take the heat off of him, shelter him, then he wouldn't be stupid enough to put the heat on him in the first place. Green chose to single Goldobin out in the media when it was thought that he was having a good stretch of games. He chose to do that and it helped nothing.

 

[Melvin]

It's completely inconsistent in that Granlund is only now sitting. Schaller has sat, yes. Actually, he could make a Goldobin like case here as well. Motte though has somehow played 51 games...

Yes, Virtanen is outproducing Goldobin at ES this year. I was referencing his first 100 games that sandwiched a 65 game AHL vacation.

Green has done Goldobin no favours. If Green really wanted to take the heat off of him, shelter him, then he wouldn't be stupid enough to put the heat on him in the first place. Green chose to single Goldobin out in the media when it was thought that he was having a good stretch of games. He chose to do that and it helped nothing.

He *has* sheltered him. He plays mostly with EP40 and gets a ton of offensive zone faceoffs with Petey, along with PP time. That *is* being sheltered. His production has been terrible, especially since November, and he has absolutely bled shots and goals against whenever he's been on a line that doesn't have a guy named "Elias Pettersson."

So yeah, Green sits him every now and then, and then takes all of the heat for the grave injustice of not playing such a lousy player in every game.

You can say there is a style bias but I could accuse you and many of the rest of the fans of the same. When a player is overall lousy but kills penalties (like Motte, Granlund, Schaller) fans just detest these players, but when a player is bad but can play on the PP (like Goldobin) fans can't get over the injustice of playing one of the former players instead. As you say, bad is bad and they are all sitting games here and there so who really cares.

And just to re-iterate, I don't think Goldobin should sit in favour of Schaller or Granlund but I just don't get making such a fuss over it. He has, overall, been given a ton of opportunity playing on a top line with elite players in what is his make-or-break year and he's mostly been a failure.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Hes a one-dimensional forward that can only be slotted in to a couple places in our line up. Is there any wonder why he gets benched? Hes utilized as a scorer and lacks any finish. And for being considered a creative player, I only see very small flashes of it. Hes weak in all zones of the ice - often turning the puck over in the neutral zone or making a poor percentage play offensively.

The only reason he gets ice is because we are so pathetically weak with scoring wingers.

Hes still young and hes definitely improved this year - but for me, this isnt a core piece nor does he have any value on the market. A literal fine a dozen winger. We can find better.

I know I come across very hard on him, but I honestly believe moving ahead with Goldobin is a mistake. I think we can find a much better player that plays this type of role.

I don't get this line if thinking.

Is it because people like to watch "hard work" and get frustrated while watching talented player "not working hard" and "wasting" their talent?

The time of having 2 scoring lines a checking line and a line of goons is history. Obviously our bottom 6 is looks like a museum in this regard. If we didn't have two stone handed players with zero vision as our centers on the bottom 2 lines we could actually ice players like Goldobin in a lesser offensive role on one of the bottom lines.

You can say there is a style bias but I could accuse you and many of the rest of the fans of the same. When a player is overall lousy but kills penalties (like Motte, Granlund, Schaller) fans just detest these players, but when a player is bad but can play on the PP (like Goldobin) fans can't get over the injustice of playing one of the former players instead. As you say, bad is bad and they are all sitting games here and there so who really cares.

If by "kills penalties" you mean he is on the ice when the Canucks are shorthanded, then yes.
If by "kills penalties" you mean is actually useful on the ice when the Canucks are shothanded, then most certainly not.

 

[Bleach Clean]

He *has* sheltered him. He plays mostly with EP40 and gets a ton of offensive zone faceoffs with Petey, along with PP time. That *is* being sheltered. His production has been terrible, especially since November, and he has absolutely bled shots and goals against whenever he's been on a line that doesn't have a guy named "Elias Pettersson."

So yeah, Green sits him every now and then, and then takes all of the heat for the grave injustice of not playing such a lousy player in every game.

You can say there is a style bias but I could accuse you and many of the rest of the fans of the same. When a player is overall lousy but kills penalties (like Motte, Granlund, Schaller) fans just detest these players, but when a player is bad but can play on the PP (like Goldobin) fans can't get over the injustice of playing one of the former players instead. As you say, bad is bad and they are all sitting games here and there so who really cares.

Granlund hasn't sat as much Goldobin. Neither has Motte. You are attempting to level something that isn't level.

You could have accused myself and fans of style bias had Green clearly not shown Motte and Granlund favour. With their usage and scratch frequency compared to Goldobin, you'll be in tough to do so.

Green introduced the heat that you are somehow propping him up as a stalwart for creating. Weird. Green hasn't sheltered Goldobin from his own criticism. He hasn't sheltered him from his own bias either. Goldobin has been benched for making mistakes on more than one occasion. How many mistakes has Granlund made? Motte? Schaller? Virtanen? Sutter?

Let me ask you: If Goldobin's production is the issue, why is Green harping on is defense and about playing hard? Why not keep pushing the message about his production instead?

Edit: Here's a second question for you now that I'm thinking on this further: Sutter just picked up his 2nd primary assist on the season. Now, unless Sutter has been godly on defense this season, why are you not calling for Sutter to be benched? Does your criticism vis a vis production hold for him too?