Niemi of 2010 SCF vs Crawford of 2014 WCF

[Panzerspitze]

I've always been surprised by the bashing Niemi received as the starting goalie of the 2010 Cup-winning team. The bashing increased as Niemi's NHL career faded. Rewatching (reliving) the good ol' days, it seems Niemi made plenty of timely (or "lucky") big saves in the 2010 SCF versus a very deep and talented Flyers team which had mounted historic comebacks against other strong teams such as Boston. Seeing Crawford sporting a 4.50 GAA in the 2014 WCF (per another thread) and how many two-goal leads were squandered in that series, I can't help but think the 2010 SCF Niemi, as badly as he allegedly played in the 2010 SCF, might have gotten past the Kings in the 2014 WCF.

Actually, I might have a hidden agenda with this post, but will keep it hidden for now

Click to read more...

 

[BK]

Niemi had a 88.4% save percentage and a 3.74 GAA in the playoffs and Crawford had a 91.2% save percentage and a 3.74 GAA in the playoffs. Niemi had a .167 QS% and Crawford had a .474% QS%. These stats are from the 2013-14 Playoffs.

Niemi was not good during the Cup run in 2010 and the team won inspite of him in many cases. He had a 91% save percentage.

Niemi is much worse than Crow and we would not have gotten past the Kings based on the facts.

What is this hidden agenda?

 

[piteus]

I've always been surprised by the bashing Niemi received as the starting goalie of the 2010 Cup-winning team. The bashing increased as Niemi's NHL career faded. Rewatching (reliving) the good ol' days, it seems Niemi made plenty of timely (or "lucky") big saves in the 2010 SCF versus a very deep and talented Flyers team which had mounted historic comebacks against other strong teams such as Boston. Seeing Crawford sporting a 4.50 GAA in the 2014 WCF (per another thread) and how many two-goal leads were squandered in that series, I can't help but think the 2010 SCF Niemi, as badly as he allegedly played in the 2010 SCF, might have gotten past the Kings in the 2014 WCF.

Actually, I might have a hidden agenda with this post, but will keep it hidden for now

That 2010 team was so loaded. No disrespect to Niemi as he made some incredible saves, but that Hawks team was a jauggernaut and built for the playoffs.

 

[pvr]

Niemi wasn't a starting caliber goalie, and I was glad to see him go. Crawford at his worst stretch is better than the sum total of Niemi.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Niemi was clearly a starting caliber goalie an he had several good years in SJ after departing Hawks

In 2010 reality was he was adequate thru most of playoffs with some bad moments. To his credit he played great in WCF vs Sharks

 

[Panzerspitze]

Well, I'm not comparing them two overall in their respective careers, or even during those two playoffs. Just the two named PO series.

Had Niemi not made that "lucky" save with his glove in Game 6 (shortly before end of regulation or sometime in OT) while falling prone to the ice, the Flyers would have forced Game 7 with yet another comeback on their belt. Then it'd become a one-game series, albeit on home ice. Anything could happen.

In that Kings series, every time there's a two-goal lead, I just got the feeling "Uh oh, they'd probably get caught sooner or later." based on how every game in that series went.

I just don't buy it that one series' Goals Against(s) were mostly on the goalie, while the other's were mostly on the rest of the team.

 

[Panzerspitze]

Niemi was clearly a starting caliber goalie an he had several good years in SJ after departing Hawks

In 2010 reality was he was adequate thru most of playoffs with some bad moments. To his credit he played great in WCF vs Sharks

He made other big saves in the 2010 SCF too. And he seemed to had the Hawks' number in SJ, even after he faded into a backup.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Niemi was good enough in 2010.

Crow has been a top three player for us since he joined the team other than his lapse in 2012 against the Yotes. He should've gotten the Conn Smythe in 2013, he was solid as well in 2014 though facing major defensive lapses by this point, and his outstanding play in 2015 was only overshadowed by Keith's heroics.

 

[DPHawk]

Niemi wasn't a starting caliber goalie, and I was glad to see him go. Crawford at his worst stretch is better than the sum total of Niemi.

None of this is true. Niemi was absolutely a starting goalie, especially the first couple of years after leaving the Hawks. He's also a career .913 goalie which is absolutely better than the bad stretches of Crawford.

 

[BK]

He made other big saves in the 2010 SCF too. And he seemed to had the Hawks' number in SJ, even after he faded into a backup.

No not really.

Opponent	GP	W	L	T/O	GA	SA	SV	SV%	GAA	SO	PIM	TOI	EV GA	PP GA	SH GA
Chicago Blackhawks	20	8	11	1	55	579	524	0.905	3.05	3	2	1082:34:00	42	10	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Niemi was a decent starter but Crow is much better. You take Crow 11/10 times.

 

[BK]

What is your hidden agenda?

 

[Panzerspitze]

Put it another way, were the 2014 Kings that superior to the 2010 Flyers (ironically both had Jeff Carter and Mike Richards) AND the 2014 Chicago D that inferior to the 2010 D (doubt anybody thinks so), that a [much] superior starting goalie in Crawford ended up sporting a ghastly 4.50 GAA, comparable to the alleged backup-caliber Niemi?

 

[BK]

Put it another way, were the 2014 Kings that superior to the 2010 Flyers (ironically both had Jeff Carter and Mike Richards) AND the 2014 Chicago D that inferior to the 2010 D, that a [much] superior starting goalie in Crawford ended up sporting a ghastly 4.50 GAA, comparable to the alleged backup-caliber Niemi?

GAA is more of a team stat. Crow was not great but he is not at fault for all goals.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Put it another way, were the 2014 Kings that superior to the 2010 Flyers (ironically both had Jeff Carter and Mike Richards) AND the 2014 Chicago D that inferior to the 2010 D (doubt anybody thinks so), that a [much] superior starting goalie in Crawford ended up sporting a ghastly 4.50 GAA, comparable to the alleged backup-caliber Niemi?

Except his GAA was 3.53. 26 GA in 442 minutes (26/442 X 60 =3.529). You are using goals allowed per game, which includes empty netters and ignores OT.


You are really reaching. If Crawford, Niemi or whoever was just a hair better, the Hawks could have won. It was a 7 game series that was decided in OT. What is your point?


As for the Flyers and Kings, the biggest difference was in net.

 

[Blackhawks]

GAA is more of a team stat. Crow was not great but he is not at fault for all goals.

No goalie is at fault for “all” goals so that statement is redundant. Also GAA can very much be a goalie stat alone so saying it’s a team stat is not always accurate. It can be a team stat though but in this situation Crawford played bad hockey especially in the last 6 games of the series and I would say he was directly responsible for at least 1.0 out of the 4.5 which can easily lose a series and it did. Would Niemi do better? The 2010 Niemi would have done better, I don’t know about the 2014 Niemi.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Put it another way, were the 2014 Kings that superior to the 2010 Flyers (ironically both had Jeff Carter and Mike Richards) AND the 2014 Chicago D that inferior to the 2010 D (doubt anybody thinks so), that a [much] superior starting goalie in Crawford ended up sporting a ghastly 4.50 GAA, comparable to the alleged backup-caliber Niemi?

Holy sample size

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I'd easily say that the 2014 Kings were better than the 2010 Flyers regardless, but yes.... small sample size.

 

[BK]

No goalie is at fault for “all” goals so that statement is redundant. Also GAA can very much be a goalie stat alone so saying it’s a team stat is not always accurate. It can be a team stat though but in this situation Crawford played bad hockey especially in the last 6 games of the series and I would say he was directly responsible for at least 1.0 out of the 4.5 which can easily lose a series and it did. Would Niemi do better? The 2010 Niemi would have done better, I don’t know about the 2014 Niemi.

It is not really redundant at all as I was talking about that specific situation. A goalie can 100% be at fault for all goals. If I was talking in general sure but I clearly was not.

GAA is 100% a team stat alone. You can pair it with save percentage to make it more individualized and less of a team stat but alone it is 100% a team stat as it provides very little context.

Niemi was statistically worse in 2010 and while he made some big saves he also let in some bad goals. His QS% was a tad higher though (not enough to really impact it). So based on numbers and what we saw on the ice 2014 would not have been any different. Outside of the WCF (the Hawks shitbagged the Sharks in general), Niemi was pretty bad in the other rounds (SC final he had 1 game over 88% save percentage). Crow had 3 games above 88% save percentage. The fact that we are using 88% and not 92% shows how below average each were.

I still want to know what your hidden agenda is? (Not you Blackhawks, no one cares about your not hidden agenda this is a joke)

 

[Panzerspitze]

Aww, c'mon. Do I really have to reveal my so-called "hidden" agenda, which might not be hidden that much at all?

While I agree the 2014 Kings were better than the 2010 Flyers overall (e.g., the bottom of the Kings' backend was more offensively-gifted, and their center depth was super excellent), I do not necessarily agree 2014 WCF Quick fared better than the 2010 SCF Leighton would have in the same spot. The former only outlasted 2014 WCF Crawford. The obvious agenda of my first post in this thread was I think the 2010 SCF Niemi would have beaten the 2014 WCF Quick. In the end, both were pretty bad themselves but made just enough saves for the OT series winner. So sample size aside, 2010 SCF Niemi > 2014 WCF Quick > 2014 WCF Crawford. How's that?

 

[BK]

Aww, c'mon. Do I really have to reveal my so-called "hidden" agenda, which might not be hidden that much at all?

While I agree the 2014 Kings were better than the 2010 Flyers overall (e.g., the bottom of the Kings' backend was more offensively-gifted, and their center depth was super excellent), I do not necessarily agree 2014 WCF Quick fared better than the 2010 SCF Leighton would have in the same spot. The former only outlasted 2014 WCF Crawford. The obvious agenda of my first post in this thread was I think the 2010 SCF Niemi may have beaten the 2014 WCF Quick. In the end, both were pretty bad themselves but made just enough saves for the OT series winner. How's that?

Oh. I figured it was a deeper tin foil hat agenda that we sometimes see on here (not from you specifically).

I disagree.

 

[Teemu]

Niemi was clearly a starting caliber goalie an he had several good years in SJ after departing Hawks

In 2010 reality was he was adequate thru most of playoffs with some bad moments. To his credit he played great in WCF vs Sharks

The Sharks had one of the league's best defenses at the time (Boyle, Vlasic, Murray, Demers, then added Burns in 2013). It's no coincidence that Niemi's numbers tanked once he left.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I look forward to Panzer's thread about the 2015 Hawks tomorrow. Better days ahead!

 

[JaegerDice]

The Blackhawks don't even get to game 7 against the Kings in 2014 with Niemi in net, let alone win.

Crawford's numbers in that series weren't great... but they were basically the mirror image of Jonathan Quick's, give or take a percent or two.

In a shocking turn of events, when you put the two best teams in the league on the ice and dial the pace up to ludicrous speed, lots of goals are going to get scored.

I blame the defense (particularly Seabrook who probably had his worst playoff series as a Blackhawk that series) and coaching/roster management for the WCF 2014 loss far more than Crawford.

Put it another way, were the 2014 Kings that superior to the 2010 Flyers (ironically both had Jeff Carter and Mike Richards) AND the 2014 Chicago D that inferior to the 2010 D (doubt anybody thinks so), that a [much] superior starting goalie in Crawford ended up sporting a ghastly 4.50 GAA, comparable to the alleged backup-caliber Niemi?

Yes, the 2014 Kings were far superior to the 2010 Flyers. They were essentially the same defensive monsters as the 2012 Kings, but they added a ton of speed and scoring to their lineup with the 70s line and Gaborik. That's what people forget about 2014. They didn't beat the Hawks by roughing them up or defending them, they skated up and down the ice with the Hawks. Better than the Hawks in many games.

As far as the defensive composition, yes the raw talent was better than 2010, but their play and deployment was not. Seabrook was a disaster that series, and Rozsival's lack of speed was exposed big time. Q never went away from the Oduya-Seabrook pairing that got torched every single time they touched the ice, and Rozsival continued getting big minutes even when it was clear that he was getting exposed big time and Leddy's speed would have been a greater asset.

The Blackhawks played a deeper team, a better coached team (as far as roster management), and the goalies basically played to a draw with each other. The better team won a close series. With Niemi in net, the better team wins in 5 or less.

 

[DPHawk]

The Sharks had one of the league's best defenses at the time (Boyle, Vlasic, Murray, Demers, then added Burns in 2013). It's no coincidence that Niemi's numbers tanked once he left.

He was 32 when left and was playing in a timeshare behind a bad defense, a decline was natural. He also threw up a .905 so he really wasn't much off his career average.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Put it another way, were the 2014 Kings that superior to the 2010 Flyers (ironically both had Jeff Carter and Mike Richards) AND the 2014 Chicago D that inferior to the 2010 D (doubt anybody thinks so), that a [much] superior starting goalie in Crawford ended up sporting a ghastly 4.50 GAA, comparable to the alleged backup-caliber Niemi?

How did Quick do in 2014 series? He wasn't exactly stellar himself

Neither goalie played at level expected of them and that was largely result of defensive breakdowns in front of them and the talent both teams possessed