NHL's return to Winnipeg certain says analyst

[Magnus Fulgur]

Metro Winnipeg is 702,400. Is that enough?

 

[Resolute]

If Winnipeg gets a team, would they be called the Jets? Would they use the same uniforms? Does anyone own the rights to the name still??

I think the NHL itself owns the name and colours. I believe the NHL took the names and colours of all defunct teams for it's vintage jersey line (who the hell would buy a KC Scouts jersey?). In this case, Winnipeg would simply need the NHL's permission to take it's name and colours back.

I could be wrong on that though.

 

[jamiebez]

You are the first person who has mentioned the possibility for more luxury boxes. I've heard a lot of people who have said there is no room to expand though. Do you have a link mentioning the possibility of adding more luxury boxes? Trusting that there is room though, I can't see there being enough room to add 50 more luxury boxes opposite the press level. Though I havent been to that arena yet, so I could be wrong.

This is somewhat speculative on my part, but I believe True North mentioned this in one form or another as the only form of possible expansion using the existing architecture. If you look at the "levels" diagram of the Arena on their website, it certainly looks possible.

It's also worth noting that it would be theoretically possible to expand the seating by raising the roof, but the cost of this would be in the tens of millions.

On the topic of television rights, Calgary and Edmonton do not have local TV deals. Costs too much for such small metro areas. I would doubt Winnipeg, who's metro is only 80% of Edmonton and 70% of Calgary would be likely to have a local deal. The problem with Sportsnet is that the west region is already split two ways by the Flames and the Oilers. For a new Jets' sake, I would hope they could get a regional deal on TSN instead, because there just arent enough available days to broadcast games on RSN as it is.

I believe the RSN deals are considered "regional deals", since Sportsnet isn't a national rightsholder.

I find it surprising to hear the the Flames and Oilers don't have local TV deals. I know Ottawa has one (A-Channel) over & above their RSN deal. Even the old Jets used to have 20 or so games on CKND (Global Winnipeg).

There is also the problem of Manitoba being one of the most oppressive tax jurisdictions in North America, and Alberta being one of the friendliest. Chances are extremely high that the new Jets would be paying much more tax than the Oilers do, and that Winnipeggers wont have as much disposable income as Edmontonians do.

Actually, the Moose/True North pay exactly zero business tax, and the amusement tax is rebated to them. As well, they pay no property tax on the new arena (IIRC, can't find a definitive source to make sure) and the land on which it was built was essentially given to them by the city, as well as the necessary sewer, water and road improvements.

It's also worth noting that Winnipeg mayor Sam Katz cut business taxes by 2% for businesses in the downtown core (where the MTS Centre is located) in an attempt to draw more business to the city centre.

There are a great many challenges facing Winnipeg in it's hopes of landing a team.

Of course, this argument of mine, which is way too long already is moot until the first, and greatest, challenge is surpassed: Winnipeg needs to find an owner with enough money to outbid any group looking to bring a team to Houston, KC, Portland, etc and who is willing to put up with the difficulties of playing in the NHL's smallest arena in the NHL's smallest market.

I agree with you here, but let me leave you with this: there's more money in Winnipeg than people think, and not every deal is negotiated in the light of day. Let's not forget the efforts to save the team in 1996 by the community and local businesses was unprecedented, and the financial possibilities have only improved since.

Time will tell....

 

[Resolute]

On TV deals: You are right, RSN's deals are regional. TSN has the national cable deal, but it also has the Leafs regional deal. It shows those Leafs games in Ontario, and something else (wrestling last night) across the rest of the country.

How a new Jets team would work regionally is something I am not sure of. Logically, the Jets' region would be Manitoba, and possibly Saskatchewan. Alberta would be off limits to them, and Manitoba would be off limits to the Flames and Oilers. However, Calgary and Edmonton's regions overlap completely, with the only blackouts occurring if one team is on TV while the other is playing a home game. If those two teams can overlap regions, then I could see the Jets overlapping as well. Three teams in one region when they cannot broadcast games on Saturdays (CBC) or Wednesdays (TSN) because of national exclusivity would be far too much for one network (RSN) to handle. That is why I think a new Jets would need a regional deal with someone else - TSN or the Score.

Good to know the Moose have a good tax deal. I just wish the fans had a better tax deal.

As far as there being money, I don't disagree. Is there enough money though? Is there enough to outbid Houston? It is not impossible, but I continue to maintain that people like Bloom are selling Manitobans on a dream.

 

[Golden Ducky]

well I wish Canwest buys out the Score or better yet create a superstation like TBS.

 

[ItzaGonga]

Off the topic slightly, but do you think there are other Canadian cities that can support NHL teams, besides Winnipeg? I'm thinking of Quebec City, Hamilton, Halifax...?

 

[joepeps]

Hamilton is too close to Toronto..

I would say

Canada

Winnipeg then Quebec

for the states

Utah then Portland

 

[RedSoxNation]

for the states Utah then Portland

I could be wrong but I believe Utah is a state and Portland a city

 

[Roke]

Actually, the Moose/True North pay exactly zero business tax, and the amusement tax is rebated to them. As well, they pay no property tax on the new arena (IIRC, can't find a definitive source to make sure) and the land on which it was built was essentially given to them by the city, as well as the necessary sewer, water and road improvements.

Stupid city... one of the most publically subsidised arenas in North America and they let it be privately owned.

 

[dekem]

Hey Resolute, the KC Scouts jersey is a classic. Out of my 30 something jerseys, people seem to like it as one of the best.

 

[Hawker14]

Stupid city... one of the most publically subsidised arenas in North America and they let it be privately owned.

compared to what ? all the arenas and stadiums provided to nhl/mlb/nba/nfl teams in the states with governments contributing hundreds of millions ?

what has been contributed for the mts centre is alot, but pales in comparison.

 

[Resolute]

well I wish Canwest buys out the Score or better yet create a superstation like TBS.

While they certantly could, I do not see what purpose that would serve. A CanWest superstation would not offer any programming we dont already get on other channels, and there certantly is not any kind of national interest in watching a new Jets - even assuming they could get by the television restrictions. If there was, the Leafs would already be on a national superstation.

CanWest Global is going to do what makes sense from a buisness perspective. That might even include staying well away from a new Jets, and the NHL altogether. Especially if other stations bid more for TV rights than it is willing to pay.

 

[joepeps]

I could be wrong but I believe Utah is a state and Portland a city

thanks I know that...

fell better is I say Salt Lake ????? and Oregon..

 

[AEKaki]

What about Quebec city guys?

 

[Crusher20]

I would love the have Quebec and Winnipeg back.. but its only a dream.

 

[LadyJet26]

While they certantly could, I do not see what purpose that would serve. A CanWest superstation would not offer any programming we dont already get on other channels, and there certantly is not any kind of national interest in watching a new Jets - even assuming they could get by the television restrictions. If there was, the Leafs would already be on a national superstation.

CanWest Global is going to do what makes sense from a buisness perspective. That might even include staying well away from a new Jets, and the NHL altogether. Especially if other stations bid more for TV rights than it is willing to pay.

I believe David Asper (billionaire and owner of CanWest Global) has shown interest in bringing back the NHL, but I'm not sure on this one.

And the economy isn't bad in Winnipeg, far from it. And population has nothing to do with whether the NHL is viable or not. MTS Centre was ok'd by the league before building began, it's enough, especially with the 700 000 people in Winnipeg. Plus not only would people from Winnipeg come to the games, but so would people from Anola, East & West St. Paul (richest areas outside of Winnipeg), Stonewall, Steinbach, the list goes on and on.

 

[HansH]

The problem with the size isn't the LEAGUE approving it, it's the financial bottom line of profit and loss that any prospective ownership group would have to look at. Either a group that currently owns a team is going to have to believe that they will make more profit in Winnipeg than they would in Houston, Portland, or KC, or some Winnipeg-based group will have to shell out more money for a franchise on the block than groups in Houston, Portland, or KC would do... and with a 15k-seat arena, the economics are VERY much in play, because that caps a major revenue stream -- a cap which wouldn't exist (or be MUCH higher) in the three aforementioned markets.

 

[LadyJet26]

The team would also get revenue from concerts, all the concession from their games, something that they NEVER had when the Jets left.

Arthur Griffins (on mojo right now) has even said it's time hockey goes to markets the NHL knows will have the support. The last season in Winnipeg everyone knew the team was leaving, and why would they pay any money for a team that's moving in the crappiest arena IMO in North America?

 

[go_leafs_go02]

Team i could see moving now:

Washington Capitals.

They have no bright future there..attendance is averaging about 12,600 per game (10,000 roughly for everygame except home opener) which averages to basically 2/3rds capacity (67.6%)

However, it is still early, so we'll have to see what it looks like in a few weeks. Many teams just played their home opener last night..so while their stats looks good right now, they can go downhill very quickly (Boston, Anaheim)

info from: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?sort=home_capacity_avg&year=2006

 

[Cawz]

They were talking about this on the Score (or was it Sportsnet?) yesterday and saying that Winnipeg will never get a team back because they wont sell elsewhere.

Sure its great for rivalries with Calgary, Edmonton etc, but they sell out anyways. How about down in the states where most have no clue where Winnipeg is. Games against them would be the games added to multi-game pack with the popular team, since they likely wouldnt sell well.

You can argue that some of those teams shouldnt be in the league, whatever, but thats the reality of the NHL now.

 

[Gnashville]

Here what everyone is not considering in this relocation talk is the current arena deals teams have. Nashville (which is always mentioned in these type of articles) has a ironclad deal with the city. Season tickets must drop below 10k (lowest point so far has been around 12k) for 3 strait years before the team can consider relocation, if the team breaks this deal the city get millions of dollars, so why would a owner pay a few million to move to a city like Winnipeg when it wouldn't be a huge improvment over what he has already. Winnipeg would have to basically give the city away to get a team to move. Expansion is probably the only option at this time.

 

[jamiebez]

They were talking about this on the Score (or was it Sportsnet?) yesterday and saying that Winnipeg will never get a team back because they wont sell elsewhere.

Sure its great for rivalries with Calgary, Edmonton etc, but they sell out anyways. How about down in the states where most have no clue where Winnipeg is. Games against them would be the games added to multi-game pack with the popular team, since they likely wouldnt sell well.

You can argue that some of those teams shouldnt be in the league, whatever, but thats the reality of the NHL now.

That's actually pretty weak reasoning, since it's going to be a weak drawing team that moves, anyway. We're not talking about relocating the Habs or the Red Wings, here

What's the difference to the Rangers, for example, if they have Florida (as an example ONLY, Panthers fans) coming in to MSG as opposed to Winnipeg? Either way, they're not a draw unless they're a very good team, and if they are, they'll draw on the road no matter where they call home.

 

[LadyJet26]

No one was mentioning Nashville as the possible team moving... Washington, Carolina are the ones being talked about more so.

Winnipeg is and will always be a hockeytown. Fans will always be there.

 

[Cawz]

That's actually pretty weak reasoning, since it's going to be a weak drawing team that moves, anyway. We're not talking about relocating the Habs or the Red Wings, here

What's the difference to the Rangers, for example, if they have Florida (as an example ONLY, Panthers fans) coming in to MSG as opposed to Winnipeg? Either way, they're not a draw unless they're a very good team, and if they are, they'll draw on the road no matter where they call home.

Ya, that was Al Stachans argument last night (saying that they wouldnt draw on the road). I didnt want to admit that I was posting his argument.

 

[jamiebez]

Ya, that was Al Stachans argument last night (saying that they wouldnt draw on the road). I didnt want to admit that I was posting his argument.

Ah, it was Strachan's point.... Now, it all makes sense