NHLPA and Jake Dotchin file grievance against Tampa Bay

HoseEmDown

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Mar 25, 2012
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Does not matter. Being out of shape should never be a good enough of a reason to terminate a contract. If it is then the nhl and nhlpa should just lose the term guaranteed contract.

Lets use lucic as an example right now, whats stopping edmonton (if tampa wins this) from saying lucic is out of shape for the money we are paying him so we will just terminate his contract?

Because Lucic most likely passed all the preseason tests that Edmonton put him through. His weight is also probably similar to what he played at last year. If Dotchin finished the season playing at 220 and came in at 250 while failing his testing that's a lot different than someone like Lucic just deteriorating due to age and wear on the body.
 
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DFC

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Because Lucic most likely passed all the preseason tests that Edmonton put him through. His weight is also probably similar to what he played at last year. If Dotchin finished the season playing at 220 and came in at 250 while failing his testing that's a lot different than someone like Lucic just deteriorating due to age and wear on the body.

Yeah, there are definitely going to be metrics beyond just weight and bodyfat percentage in play here. It'll just be a question of whether or not TB can establish that there's a reasonable standard that Dotchin didn't meet.
 

The Macho King

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Does not matter. Being out of shape should never be a good enough of a reason to terminate a contract. If it is then the nhl and nhlpa should just lose the term guaranteed contract.

Lets use lucic as an example right now, whats stopping edmonton (if tampa wins this) from saying lucic is out of shape for the money we are paying him so we will just terminate his contract?
I don't see how this argument is tenable. One - there's a clause in the CBA which clearly states that it is (whether Dotchin's case raises to that level is a different question entirely). Two - it's a job where one's physical prowess is a necessary condition for success. If you are physically unable (for reasons other than illness or injury of course) to perform those duties, why should you still get paid? He's not an at-will employee, but he still has responsibilities to meet the terms of the contract (that being - be able to play hockey at an NHL-level).

Guaranteed contract means that the money value and term is set in stone(as opposed to bonus-laden or featuring player/team options like other sports), not that once the ink is put to paper it is impossible to get out of.
 

DFC

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Does not matter. Being out of shape should never be a good enough of a reason to terminate a contract. If it is then the nhl and nhlpa should just lose the term guaranteed contract.

Lets use lucic as an example right now, whats stopping edmonton (if tampa wins this) from saying lucic is out of shape for the money we are paying him so we will just terminate his contract?

Because it wouldn't be that hard to prove Lucic is not "vastly" out of shape, while there are likely plenty of numbers to show Dotchin is/was?
 
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God King Fudge

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Oct 13, 2017
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Doesn't really matter though. Out of shape is such a broad defintion that can change from person to person depending on who you ask.

Suspending the player is what should of happened. Once the nhl allowed this breach of contract and his contract to be cancelled opened up a whole can of worms that can't be opened with guaranteed contracts.

Which brings this to a different issue for 2 years from now. This guaranteed contract could become a huge fight come cba renewal time.
Ah. Suspend him and allow him to get into game shape even though he was already previously suspended for not being in game shape. That sound like just the thing to do.

So how many times should a team have to suspend a player for not taking his job seriously and showing up to camp out of shape before we stop pretending like this isn't the players fault? 3? 4? Infinitely?
 
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Empoleon8771

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For people who don't see the problem in this, just wait until a team terminates an albatross contract for fitness reasons to get out of paying them. I bet you won't feel the same way at that point.
 
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me2

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Does not matter. Being out of shape should never be a good enough of a reason to terminate a contract. If it is then the nhl and nhlpa should just lose the term guaranteed contract.

Lets use lucic as an example right now, whats stopping edmonton (if tampa wins this) from saying lucic is out of shape for the money we are paying him so we will just terminate his contract?

1. If Lucic can demonstrate he's not grossly overweight and Edmonton would look like sad losers from try this BS, they would be kicked out of arbitration.

2. If Lucic is grossly overweight then you follow the Tampa example then year 1 suspension then year 2 sacking process. If Lucic was grossly out of shape they would need to suspend him this year, that gives him a year to get his fitness act together.

The Tampa is fair in that a team gives at least one year warning (suspension) and there is an arbitration option.
 

Barrie22

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The one thing that hurts tampas chances to win this is that a team signed him. So he is apparently up to standards for some teams, barely 2 weeks into the season.
 

God King Fudge

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The one thing that hurts tampas chances to win this is that a team signed him. So he is apparently up to standards for some teams, barely 2 weeks into the season.


Training camp opened for TB on September 13th. He just now signed with a team and was assigned to their AHL affiliate for conditioning.

It's not hard to believe that he could drop 20-25 pounds of his weight in more than a month with proper training and dedication, which kind of brings me back to asking why Tampa should have to keep the guy in their organization for a month without him contributing to either their NHL or AHL team so he can get his weight under control?

There's a big difference in being ready two weeks into the season and being ready over a month ago when you should have been.
 
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HoseEmDown

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Mar 25, 2012
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The one thing that hurts tampas chances to win this is that a team signed him. So he is apparently up to standards for some teams, barely 2 weeks into the season.

He was terminated over a month ago, unless he went right back to the couch he was my ost likely training until then. We also don't know what of any tests Anaheim put him through before signing him. They also sent him to the minors because he wasn't in good enough shape to play in the NHL yet. So I can't see how that hurts Tampa? The lightning could've just waived him the first week of camp and let some other team deal with him but they need to show their players and prospects that they need to aft like professionals and that type of behavior is unacceptable.
 

dechire

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The one thing that hurts tampas chances to win this is that a team signed him. So he is apparently up to standards for some teams, barely 2 weeks into the season.
They signed and immediately waived him. That indicates he's still not up to standards yet even after a month. And the CBA doesn't use the start of the season as a baseline for being in shape. It's from the beginnng of training camp. Being in shape 2 weeks into the season would still be 6 weeks late based on the contract he signed. The question is "How is 'in shape' defined ?" not "Is a player required to be in shape ?" The answer to the second question is already yes or at least I think any reasonable person would define "in good physical condition" that way.
 

Leonardo87

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NeverBeNormal

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Mar 27, 2007
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Damn i thought it was impossible to take the Owners side but the NHLPA is doing a great job.

Being out of shape and unable to perform your duties is now on the teams and not your own personal responsibility.

Defending fatties and wifebeaters. Nice.

Tell me about it. I've been pro-Owner since the lockout. It was unbearable listening to players complain about "not getting full value for their contracts" when that was never how their contracts worked in the first place. It was pretty eye opening finding out just how many players have no idea how 50-50 revenue and escrow work.

Other than that they're a typical union. If you do your job well, like not showing up grossly overweight, then the only chance you have of dealing with the PA is if some plug tries to decapitate you. Then all those union dues you paid go towards getting the scumbag back on the ice ASAP.
 

JetsHomer

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Nov 29, 2011
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Tell me about it. I've been pro-Owner since the lockout. It was unbearable listening to players complain about "not getting full value for their contracts" when that was never how their contracts worked in the first place. It was pretty eye opening finding out just how many players have no idea how 50-50 revenue and escrow work.

Other than that they're a typical union. If you do your job well, like not showing up grossly overweight, then the only chance you have of dealing with the PA is if some plug tries to decapitate you. Then all those union dues you paid go towards getting the ******* back on the ice ASAP.
Imagine siding with billionaires that just want to exploit people for as much profit as possible over the actual workers that actually put butts in the seats lmao
 

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