NHLPA and Jake Dotchin file grievance against Tampa Bay

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Post Karl Malone, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. Post Karl Malone

    Post Karl Malone Gonna cost Sergachev or Point

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    https://www.tsn.ca/nhlpa-dotchin-file-grievance-against-bolts-1.1194366

    Man. If your job is to be a professional athlete....being "vastly out of shape" seems like a ****in dealbreaker to me.
     
  2. tny760

    tny760 Registered User

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    it's probably a good thing overall for this to go through the system. i'm not entirely sure i believe that he was THAT horribly out of shape but i also believe that you should be held responsible under contract to be an athlete
     
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  3. Post Karl Malone

    Post Karl Malone Gonna cost Sergachev or Point

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    I think the bigger issue for TB is that he was suspended last year for the same thing. So you progress through the year and the player shows up again out of shape. So do we just expect TB to suspend him again so he can get his **** together? What happens next year if he does it again? Another suspension? At what point do we put the blame on the player for not being capable of controlling his weight?

    I think it's good that it goes through the system too, but man. How do you argue that showing up out of shape for the second season in a row after you've already been suspended for it isn't a valid reason to terminate a contract?
     
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  4. Silky mitts

    Silky mitts It’s yours boys and girls and babes let’s go!

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    Tampa sure tries to screw over a bunch of players for a team that gets everyone to take a discount
     
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  5. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    I don't know. Every insider is saying "vastly." 30 pounds overweight seems to be the consensus info, and Friedman gave a 25% bodyfat number. That's very, very out of shape for a pro athlete. Sure, there are examples of guys who can get away with that, but Dotchin's not one of them. I think they'll attack it from the double-standard angle, but Dotchin did not look like an NHL player last year, after showing up to camp out of shape, so it's only logical to think the team told him he was on thin ice.
     
  6. newfy

    newfy Registered User

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    yeah but without set guidelines for what is considered out of shape its kinda shady to allow this. Like a guy could show up the same weight every year and it be considered out of shape but finally his play fell off he could be terminated with being out of shape as the excuse. Too much of a grey area without actual protocol set in place
     
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  7. Post Karl Malone

    Post Karl Malone Gonna cost Sergachev or Point

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    Which is fine if you want to sit down and hammer out guidelines for it, but McKenzie reported Dotchin showed up 30 pounds overweight. That's not acceptable, especially after you got dinged for it the year prior.
     
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  8. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    Sure, but what if the team told him to show up in shape, after showing up out of shape the previous season? It's easy to assume that's what happened here. Does the team not have a right to make that demand on a professional athlete? Seems like a reasonable demand. So how many times can a player not live up to it before the team can reasonably cut ties?
     
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  9. newfy

    newfy Registered User

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    Its not acceptable but its a grey area, you cant just terminate a union worker for that. Whats the definition of overweight? Who decides how heavy he needs to be to play his best? Do other players show up that overweight but are just better players? Byfuglien I'm sure has shown up more than 30 lbs overweight but isnt terminated because his talent overcomes it.

    Part of signing guys to multi year contracts is evaluating their character and work ethic. They should've thought about him showing up overweight before they signed him long term with a bad work ethic. Cant just terminate a contract for that
     
  10. newfy

    newfy Registered User

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    What if the team starts to up their definition of in shape. They want to terminate a guy so they tell him to show up at 190lbs when hes been 210 his whole career?

    Its ****ty but the NHLPA cant allow this precedent to be set with a grey area like this. If his contract says a specific weight must be maintained sure, or a certain fitness test that can be repeated and tested must be passed at the start of the year than sure. But not just the coach saying youre 30lbs overweight.
     
  11. Monsieur Gustave H

    Monsieur Gustave H Coming Home

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    True, but Byfuglien was also able to perform his duties in that condition. Dotchin may, or may not have been able to do so.
     
  12. The Head Crusher

    The Head Crusher Unretired

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    Too much Fortnite? ;)
     
  13. SabresSharks

    SabresSharks Registered User

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    Is this "fat shaming"? Trying to understand the required level of outrage.
     
  14. newfy

    newfy Registered User

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    Once again, who judges who can perform his duties? If you just have a coach deciding that you could say that about any bad contract you want to get rid of and terminate it. Whose to say the reason they cant perform their duties is the extra weight and not that they cant process the game as quickly as the season before? What are the duties of a number 6 dman vs what were the duties of Byfuglien? Byfuglien probably wasnt performing up to par for his role but could still go out there and do it. Dotchin after a training camp could probalby go out and play, he showed up out of shape the season before that and still played over half the games

    The union isnt going to let this grey area crap set a precedent for the future
     
  15. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    We can only assume Dotchin performed poorly on a plethora of physical tests the first day of camp. I get that it's a gray area, and, in Dotchin's case, he may well win, but I think teams will ask for safeguards for this type of situation in the next CBA. Because the precedent works both ways. Once players sign, they still have to have some sort of obligation to stay fit for their line of work.

    We can assume he was given a warning by the team because we know this happened last year too. And they must have some sort of baseline to work with, like how Dotchin performed in the team physicals in 2016, when he showed up in shape.
     
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  16. tny760

    tny760 Registered User

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    30lbs doesn't mean much, maybe he put on 10lbs of muscle, 10 of fat and he carb loaded and put on 10 of water weight on whatever day they happened to weigh him.. he could be a better athlete, stronger, with a higher v02 max but he's 30 lbs overweight compared to when they weighed his depleted body at the end of the season. jeff carter(i think) said he lost upwards of 15lbs throughout the season because you're not eating the same way, with the same workouts and same nutrition as you do over the offseason..

    you gotta understand [email protected]'3" is beanpole status for a professional hockey player who's probably squatting double your 1RM. 240 may be a touch overweight but we don't know the results of the physical, much less where we're pulling this "30 pounds" number from
     
  17. newfy

    newfy Registered User

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    Yeah and if they ask for protections against this and it gets put into the CBA, then Tampa can freely terminate his contract. Right now they cant, thats the downside of unions. Lazy people can get in and not work for what their contracts worth and still get paid over other people who would likely work harder. I'm not saying I'm glad Dotchin will get his money but thats how colective bargaining and union protections work
     
  18. Bounces R Way

    Bounces R Way Feaster's Beasters

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    Complacency in sports is a very real thing. Showing up to camp vastly out of shape as a professional athlete is simply inexcusable. I understand going through the PA to try to recoup some money, that's kind of what they're there for, but I really doubt this ends in Dotchin's favour.
     
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  19. VinikToWinIt

    VinikToWinIt Big Bad Lightning

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    Set your outrage meter to 11 please.
     
  20. Barrie22

    Barrie22 Shark fan in hiding

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    Doesn't really matter though. Out of shape is such a broad defintion that can change from person to person depending on who you ask.

    Suspending the player is what should of happened. Once the nhl allowed this breach of contract and his contract to be cancelled opened up a whole can of worms that can't be opened with guaranteed contracts.

    Which brings this to a different issue for 2 years from now. This guaranteed contract could become a huge fight come cba renewal time.
     
  21. SabresSharks

    SabresSharks Registered User

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    It's pegged, mate. Next step is to crawl into bed, adopt the fetal position, pull the covers over my head, and curse a miserable world that would discriminate against a chubby professional hockey player.
     
  22. Barrie22

    Barrie22 Shark fan in hiding

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    It probably will. There are pretty strict guidlines that are there for a team to terminate a guaranteed contract. Just look at the trouble the kings had to go through to terminate richards contract.
     
  23. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    Yeah, I think we might be in agreement. I think you might be right that Dotchin gets paid here, but only because teams aren't protected against this kind of thing. But I think, after this, they're going to want some protection. Especially as long-term contracts become more the norm. (Mind you, Dotchin's contract was short-term, but for the sake of precedent.)

    I don't think it would be a major sticking point in negotiations though. The Dotchin case seems to be kind of extreme, if the numbers are accurate. It's just a matter of figuring out how to establish a baseline for each player, and then how far outside of that baseline they can be before disciplinary action is taken. My guess is cases like Dotchin's will fall outside of what players will be protected from. I don't think a lot of players are worried about what'll happen to them if they get warned about their weight and then show up the next year 30 lbs overweight, because it's so extreme for a pro athlete. That said, I think Dotchin is going to bring up mental health issues, but that's based only on a tweet sent out by Andej Sustr.
     
  24. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    He was suspended for this last year. We can only assumed he was warned not to let it happen again.
     
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  25. Barrie22

    Barrie22 Shark fan in hiding

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    Does not matter. Being out of shape should never be a good enough of a reason to terminate a contract. If it is then the nhl and nhlpa should just lose the term guaranteed contract.

    Lets use lucic as an example right now, whats stopping edmonton (if tampa wins this) from saying lucic is out of shape for the money we are paying him so we will just terminate his contract?
     

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