NHL vs MLS

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by nyrmessier011, Jan 30, 2007.

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  1. nyrmessier011

    nyrmessier011 Registered User

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    Does anybody have some statistics on these two leagues? Attendance comparisons, (NHL arenas hold much less than most MLS venues, but still interested) NBC/VS vs ABC/ESPN tv ratings for playoff games? Average salary comparisons? Thanks
     
  2. azsharkfan

    azsharkfan Registered User

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    T.V. ratings for MLS coverage is not good. ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC broadcast these games on Saturday afternoons, during baseball season. Ratings are extremely comperable to NHL viewership.

    The average salary in MLS is 36,000 per year. Each team has one player that can earn the maximum, which is $286,000.

    Things about MLS:
    -51% of each team is owned by MLS
    -from 1996 to present, Columbus, LA, Dallas, Chicago and Colorado have built soccer specific stadiums (25,000)

    The MLS is the 72nd best league in the world...horrible!

    But, they are not bankrupt. Stadiums have been built and now is their time to take a risk (Beckham) to get their attendance numbers up. Average attendance is 12,000 per game across the league. Problem is, is that 12,000 looks like 1,200 in Giants Stadium, Invesco Field (up to this year), RFK, Arrowhead, etc.

    The game will never attract TV viewership in America. The only hope for it to survive is through ticket sales. Once the entire league is playing in soccer specific stadiums, I think it will stick...but NOT because of T.V.!
     
  3. nyrmessier011

    nyrmessier011 Registered User

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    What are the rankings (72nd) based on? And do you have a list of the top 100? Thanks
     
  4. TorontoSports

    TorontoSports Registered User

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    The MLS can be more successful due to the fact they play in summer rivaling only baseball, while Hockey rivals Football, World Series (albeit a short period of time), Basketball, Lacrosse, College sports etc etc.

    Also they only have a few games a week so once they build a fanbase that lure could take off (then again it might not.. only time will tell).
     
  5. Sean Ruck

    Sean Ruck Registered User

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    I may be wrong but I remember hearing somewhere that the MLS at one point payed ESPN to play their games. Is there any truth in that?

    Heres pretty much what you need to know about the MLS vs. the NHL:
    European hockey players grow up wanting to play in North America
    American soccer players grow up hoping to play in Europe.
     
  6. TorontoSports

    TorontoSports Registered User

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    That's pretty much what it is... ESPN paid no rights for the MLS, but now they do. MLS has a good structure right now and their commissioner Don Garber and the owners are a lot smarter than the NHL owners and Bettman. They want slow and steady expansion and they want the prospective owners to build soccer specific stadiums from here on out. So the owners can get all the revenue from the concerts/other events. Basically their economic model is working and their payrolls are down. Also the league has many more NCAA players in it than the NHL so growth in the future can still be there as one could follow their favorite player through the ranks.
     
  7. DJAnimosity

    DJAnimosity ghosts 'n stuff

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    Seriously, did you just pull all of this out of your ass hoping nobody would call you out on it? You couldn't be more wrong on most of your points here.

    As for team attendance, MLS averaged 15,504 fans per game in the 2006 season, led by Los Angeles' mark of 20,814 per game (sorry for the formatting):

    TEAM ATTENDANCE REPORT
    HOME GAMES ROAD GAMES
    DATES TOTAL AVERAGE DATES TOTAL AVERAGE
    Chicago Fire 16 225,775 14,111 16 213,650 13,353
    Chivas USA 16 317,432 19,840 16 235,605 14,725
    Colorado Rapids 16 192,894 12,056 16 246,340 15,396
    Columbus Crew 16 212,699 13,294 16 220,591 13,787
    FC Dallas 16 239,714 14,982 16 264,307 16,519
    D.C. United 16 291,442 18,215 16 227,088 14,193
    Houston Dynamo 16 302,957 18,935 16 199,553 12,472
    Kansas City Wizards 16 177,322 11,083 16 225,194 14,075
    Los Angeles Galaxy 16 333,016 20,814 16 318,870 19,929
    New England Revolution 16 188,569 11,786 16 347,206 21,700
    New York Red Bulls 16 233,112 14,570 16 232,174 14,511
    Real Salt Lake 16 261,855 16,366 16 246,209 15,388
    MLS Totals 192 2,976,787 15,504 192 2,976,787 15,504

    http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2006


    Each team has a salary cap of approx. $1.2 million, but the new "Beckham Rule" allows a team to acquire one designated player whose salary does not count against the cap. MLS pays $400,000 of said player's salary per year, with the team responsible for the rest (have no idea where this mythical $286,000 figure came from).

    MLS just signed a new deal with the ESPN networks for a rights fee in the neighborhood of $50 million (something the NHL couldn't do) to show one game per week on their new "Soccer Thursday" showcase. ABC will show the All-Star Game and MLS Cup (and likely Beckham's first match).

    The 51% of each team being owned by MLS is patently false. Have no idea where you came up with that. Each team is owned and run by individual owners and entities. MLS controls player allocations and transfers, but they certainly don't own teams.

    I won't even comment on your "72nd best league" comment. Laughable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2007
  8. TorontoSports

    TorontoSports Registered User

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    That's not true I know a few teams are run by AEG and I think two by Lamar Hunt (R.I.P). They bank rolled the teams, but they are always looking to sell em and they have sold a few since last year.
     
  9. DJAnimosity

    DJAnimosity ghosts 'n stuff

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    Yeah, but they're not "51% owned by MLS" as the original poster said. And aren't Lamar Hunt and AEG "individual owners"?? :confused:
     
  10. TorontoSports

    TorontoSports Registered User

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    AEG is a group.. they own the Kings too.
     
  11. DJAnimosity

    DJAnimosity ghosts 'n stuff

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    OK, you're still missing the point - MLS DOES NOT own 51% of each team.

    AEG is an INDIVIDUAL owner, in that the GROUP owns the team (INDIVDUALLY), not the league.
     
  12. TorontoSports

    TorontoSports Registered User

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    I never said anything about 51% I'm just saying that all teams aren't individually owned when they're not. AEG owns the Dynamo and Galaxy I believe. Either way, the league isn't doing nearly as bad as that other poster said.
     
  13. kdb209

    kdb209 Registered User

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    The ESPN/ABC deal is NOT $50M/yr - $50M total over it's 8 year life, maybe. The deal, signed in Aug 2006 pays $7M-$8M/yr through 2014. The total MLS Brodcast revenues are only ~$15M/yr:

    http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6359744.html
    Actually, MLS (AEG) does own multiple teams. MLS was originally a single entity league where the league (and its primary investors) owned all of the franchises and contracts were all centrally negotiated/dictated. Over time, some, but not all teams were sold off to seperate individual owners.

    In 2001, 6 of the 10 teams were owned by AEG. Three have been since sold off, but AEG still owns 3 teams - LA, Chicago, and Houston (formerly San Jose). This led to some rather underhanded dealings in player transfers (see Donovan, Landon). The other major investor, Lamar Hunt, owned 3 teams untill last year when he sold off KC - Hunt Sports still owns Columbus and Dallas. Ownership has diversified a bit - there are now 10 owners and 13 teams.

    MLS revenues are MUCH, MUCH smaller than the NHL.
     
  14. DJAnimosity

    DJAnimosity ghosts 'n stuff

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    Never said it was. :dunno:

    Since when does MLS = AEG? :confused: Again, MLS does not own teams. Individual entities (some owning more than one team, including AEG and HSG) own teams.

    All of you guys are going off on a tangent about "individual owners" - my point was that the original poster was full of crap by claiming that MLS owned 51% of each team. Are we all in agreement on that??
     
  15. TorontoSports

    TorontoSports Registered User

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    The league has been around for like a decade though. Their ratings mirror that of the NHL though.
     
  16. kdb209

    kdb209 Registered User

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    True, the 51% is crap - it's actually 100%.

    The league itself actually owns all of the clubs. The teams owners/investors do not actually own their clubs - they own a certain percentage of the league itself.

    From MLS's own website:

    The single operator model allowed the league to avoid anti trust challenge to their centralized operations - and avoid the need to deal with messy things like CBAs, Players Associations, and Lockouts.

    MLS Players challenged the league organization and rules under US Anti Trust law - and lost - Frasier v. Major leage Soccer

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=1st&navby=case&no=011296

    A description of the MLS ownership model from the 1st Circuit court decision:

     
  17. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    quality post there mate - was looking at the same stuff myself -

    MLS is determined to build a credible league -

    http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/161112/signing-beckham-just-one-of-many-significant-developments
     
  18. nyrmessier011

    nyrmessier011 Registered User

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    Average MLS attendance is ABOUT 15,000, the NHL ABOUT 17,000 (soccer specific venues hold about 25,000, others hold on average 65,000, just throwing some numbers out there, average NHL venue holds 19,000). They're collecting $10 million a year in TV revenues and are on ESPN/ABC, NHL $50 million and are on Versus/NBC. MLS has a cap between $1-1.5 million with one franchise exception, NHL $44 million. NHL might look like they own the MLS, and it does, but there are half as many MLS teams, so the pieces of the pie are cut in half for the NHL team. With the Beckham signing and raised awareness of American soccer, we can expect the MLS to grow even more. For a league that has been around for ten years this isn't bad. Don't want to turn this into another Bettman bashing thread, but the way the NHL is being handled and thrown into the toilet, we need some new people in charge or the MLS is on pace to match the NHL within 15 years. I am talking a worst case scenario here of course so don't start calling names.
     
  19. azsharkfan

    azsharkfan Registered User

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    Average attendance numbers do NOT equate to actual ticket sales revenue.

    NO WAY...NO WAY are they averaging above 15,000 per game.

    72nd...
    Currently, according to IFFHS, MLS is ranked only 72 in the top world leagues:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer

    Salaries:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/mls/longterm/2006/mls.salaries.html

    51% ownership
    http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...f+mls,+51%+ownership&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

    Bottom line...do NOT question my intelligence re: the MLS!
     
  20. TorontoSports

    TorontoSports Registered User

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    Single entity system is interesting to be honest. It doesn't really matter though, the "investors" are still paying for their teams so they are basically owners of the team.
     
  21. kdb209

    kdb209 Registered User

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    Did you actually read that article, or just google "mls 51 ownership"?

    Nowhere in that article did it say that MLS owned 51% of each team - all it said was that the league revenue sharing formula gave the investor operators 49% of gate revenues. That is NOT the same as 49% ownership.

     
  22. lemieux32*

    lemieux32* Guest

    The fact that you use rankings from IFFHS as fact shoots down everything you say. In their current club rankings they have Manchester United #28, behind such clubs as Newcastle, FC Basle, Rapid Bucuresti, Lille, Olympique Marseille, Schalke, etc. Yeah, MLS is worse then league in Oman, Uzbekistan, Angola, etc. Romania above Portugal and Scotland? Jens Lehmann ranked ahead of Cech, Van Der Sar and Casillas???? I could go on but you get my point...it's as joke.
     
  23. jsginsocal

    jsginsocal Registered User

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  24. Hasbro

    Hasbro Can He Skate?! Sponsor

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    In Denver the Rapids are getting a new stadium, which is a third of the capacity of Mile High and will be in Commerce City an unattractive industrial suburb as opposed to the Downtown area with all of the other stadiums.
     
  25. jsginsocal

    jsginsocal Registered User

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    I guess that is what happens when you can only avg 8000 paid tickets a game and virtually no corporate support.
     

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