NHL vs MLS

[nyrmessier011]

Does anybody have some statistics on these two leagues? Attendance comparisons, (NHL arenas hold much less than most MLS venues, but still interested) NBC/VS vs ABC/ESPN tv ratings for playoff games? Average salary comparisons? Thanks

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[azsharkfan]

T.V. ratings for MLS coverage is not good. ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC broadcast these games on Saturday afternoons, during baseball season. Ratings are extremely comperable to NHL viewership.

The average salary in MLS is 36,000 per year. Each team has one player that can earn the maximum, which is $286,000.

Things about MLS:
-51% of each team is owned by MLS
-from 1996 to present, Columbus, LA, Dallas, Chicago and Colorado have built soccer specific stadiums (25,000)

The MLS is the 72nd best league in the world...horrible!

But, they are not bankrupt. Stadiums have been built and now is their time to take a risk (Beckham) to get their attendance numbers up. Average attendance is 12,000 per game across the league. Problem is, is that 12,000 looks like 1,200 in Giants Stadium, Invesco Field (up to this year), RFK, Arrowhead, etc.

The game will never attract TV viewership in America. The only hope for it to survive is through ticket sales. Once the entire league is playing in soccer specific stadiums, I think it will stick...but NOT because of T.V.!

 

[nyrmessier011]

T.V. ratings for MLS coverage is not good. ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC broadcast these games on Saturday afternoons, during baseball season. Ratings are extremely comperable to NHL viewership.

The average salary in MLS is 36,000 per year. Each team has one player that can earn the maximum, which is $286,000.

Things about MLS:
-51% of each team is owned by MLS
-from 1996 to present, Columbus, LA, Dallas, Chicago and Colorado have built soccer specific stadiums (25,000)

The MLS is the 72nd best league in the world...horrible!

But, they are not bankrupt. Stadiums have been built and now is their time to take a risk (Beckham) to get their attendance numbers up. Average attendance is 12,000 per game across the league. Problem is, is that 12,000 looks like 1,200 in Giants Stadium, Invesco Field (up to this year), RFK, Arrowhead, etc.

The game will never attract TV viewership in America. The only hope for it to survive is through ticket sales. Once the entire league is playing in soccer specific stadiums, I think it will stick...but NOT because of T.V.!

What are the rankings (72nd) based on? And do you have a list of the top 100? Thanks

 

[OG6ix]

The MLS can be more successful due to the fact they play in summer rivaling only baseball, while Hockey rivals Football, World Series (albeit a short period of time), Basketball, Lacrosse, College sports etc etc.

Also they only have a few games a week so once they build a fanbase that lure could take off (then again it might not.. only time will tell).

 

[Sean Ruck]

I may be wrong but I remember hearing somewhere that the MLS at one point payed ESPN to play their games. Is there any truth in that?

Heres pretty much what you need to know about the MLS vs. the NHL:
European hockey players grow up wanting to play in North America
American soccer players grow up hoping to play in Europe.

 

[OG6ix]

I may be wrong but I remember hearing somewhere that the MLS at one point payed ESPN to play their games. Is there any truth in that?

Heres pretty much what you need to know about the MLS vs. the NHL:
European hockey players grow up wanting to play in North America
American soccer players grow up hoping to play in Europe.

That's pretty much what it is... ESPN paid no rights for the MLS, but now they do. MLS has a good structure right now and their commissioner Don Garber and the owners are a lot smarter than the NHL owners and Bettman. They want slow and steady expansion and they want the prospective owners to build soccer specific stadiums from here on out. So the owners can get all the revenue from the concerts/other events. Basically their economic model is working and their payrolls are down. Also the league has many more NCAA players in it than the NHL so growth in the future can still be there as one could follow their favorite player through the ranks.

 

[DJA]

T.V. ratings for MLS coverage is not good. ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC broadcast these games on Saturday afternoons, during baseball season. Ratings are extremely comperable to NHL viewership.

The average salary in MLS is 36,000 per year. Each team has one player that can earn the maximum, which is $286,000.

Things about MLS:
-51% of each team is owned by MLS
-from 1996 to present, Columbus, LA, Dallas, Chicago and Colorado have built soccer specific stadiums (25,000)

The MLS is the 72nd best league in the world...horrible!

But, they are not bankrupt. Stadiums have been built and now is their time to take a risk (Beckham) to get their attendance numbers up. Average attendance is 12,000 per game across the league. Problem is, is that 12,000 looks like 1,200 in Giants Stadium, Invesco Field (up to this year), RFK, Arrowhead, etc.

The game will never attract TV viewership in America. The only hope for it to survive is through ticket sales. Once the entire league is playing in soccer specific stadiums, I think it will stick...but NOT because of T.V.!

Seriously, did you just pull all of this out of your ass hoping nobody would call you out on it? You couldn't be more wrong on most of your points here.

As for team attendance, MLS averaged 15,504 fans per game in the 2006 season, led by Los Angeles' mark of 20,814 per game (sorry for the formatting):

TEAM ATTENDANCE REPORT
HOME GAMES ROAD GAMES
DATES TOTAL AVERAGE DATES TOTAL AVERAGE
Chicago Fire 16 225,775 14,111 16 213,650 13,353
Chivas USA 16 317,432 19,840 16 235,605 14,725
Colorado Rapids 16 192,894 12,056 16 246,340 15,396
Columbus Crew 16 212,699 13,294 16 220,591 13,787
FC Dallas 16 239,714 14,982 16 264,307 16,519
D.C. United 16 291,442 18,215 16 227,088 14,193
Houston Dynamo 16 302,957 18,935 16 199,553 12,472
Kansas City Wizards 16 177,322 11,083 16 225,194 14,075
Los Angeles Galaxy 16 333,016 20,814 16 318,870 19,929
New England Revolution 16 188,569 11,786 16 347,206 21,700
New York Red Bulls 16 233,112 14,570 16 232,174 14,511
Real Salt Lake 16 261,855 16,366 16 246,209 15,388
MLS Totals 192 2,976,787 15,504 192 2,976,787 15,504

http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2006


Each team has a salary cap of approx. $1.2 million, but the new "Beckham Rule" allows a team to acquire one designated player whose salary does not count against the cap. MLS pays $400,000 of said player's salary per year, with the team responsible for the rest (have no idea where this mythical $286,000 figure came from).

MLS just signed a new deal with the ESPN networks for a rights fee in the neighborhood of $50 million (something the NHL couldn't do) to show one game per week on their new "Soccer Thursday" showcase. ABC will show the All-Star Game and MLS Cup (and likely Beckham's first match).

The 51% of each team being owned by MLS is patently false. Have no idea where you came up with that. Each team is owned and run by individual owners and entities. MLS controls player allocations and transfers, but they certainly don't own teams.

I won't even comment on your "72nd best league" comment. Laughable.

 

[OG6ix]

Seriously, did you just pull all of this out of your ass hoping nobody would call you out on it? You couldn't be more wrong on most of your points here.

As for team attendance, MLS averaged 15,504 fans per game in the 2006 season, led by Los Angeles' mark of 20,814 per game (sorry for the formatting):

TEAM ATTENDANCE REPORT
HOME GAMES ROAD GAMES
DATES TOTAL AVERAGE DATES TOTAL AVERAGE
Chicago Fire 16 225,775 14,111 16 213,650 13,353
Chivas USA 16 317,432 19,840 16 235,605 14,725
Colorado Rapids 16 192,894 12,056 16 246,340 15,396
Columbus Crew 16 212,699 13,294 16 220,591 13,787
FC Dallas 16 239,714 14,982 16 264,307 16,519
D.C. United 16 291,442 18,215 16 227,088 14,193
Houston Dynamo 16 302,957 18,935 16 199,553 12,472
Kansas City Wizards 16 177,322 11,083 16 225,194 14,075
Los Angeles Galaxy 16 333,016 20,814 16 318,870 19,929
New England Revolution 16 188,569 11,786 16 347,206 21,700
New York Red Bulls 16 233,112 14,570 16 232,174 14,511
Real Salt Lake 16 261,855 16,366 16 246,209 15,388
MLS Totals 192 2,976,787 15,504 192 2,976,787 15,504

http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2006


Each team has a salary cap of approx. $1.2 million, but the new "Beckham Rule" allows a team to acquire one designated player whose salary does not count against the cap. MLS pays $400,000 of said player's salary per year, with the team responsible for the rest (have no idea where this mythical $286,000 figure came from).

MLS just signed a new deal with the ESPN networks for a rights fee in the neighborhood of $50 million (something the NHL couldn't do) to show one game per week on their new "Soccer Thursday" showcase. ABC will show the All-Star Game and MLS Cup (and likely Beckham's first match).

The 51% of each team being owned by MLS is patently false. Have no idea where you came up with that. Each team is owned and run by individual owners and entities. MLS controls player allocations and transfers, but they certainly don't own teams.

I won't even comment on your "72nd best league" comment. Laughable.

That's not true I know a few teams are run by AEG and I think two by Lamar Hunt (R.I.P). They bank rolled the teams, but they are always looking to sell em and they have sold a few since last year.

 

[DJA]

That's not true I know a few teams are run by AEG and I think two by Lamar Hunt (R.I.P). They bank rolled the teams, but they are always looking to sell em and they have sold a few since last year.

Yeah, but they're not "51% owned by MLS" as the original poster said. And aren't Lamar Hunt and AEG "individual owners"??

 

[OG6ix]

Yeah, but they're not "51% owned by MLS" as the original poster said. And aren't Lamar Hunt and AEG "individual owners"??

AEG is a group.. they own the Kings too.

 

[DJA]

AEG is a group.. they own the Kings too.

OK, you're still missing the point - MLS DOES NOT own 51% of each team.

AEG is an INDIVIDUAL owner, in that the GROUP owns the team (INDIVDUALLY), not the league.

 

[OG6ix]

OK, you're still missing the point - MLS DOES NOT own 51% of each team.

AEG is an INDIVIDUAL owner, in that the GROUP owns the team (INDIVDUALLY), not the league.

I never said anything about 51% I'm just saying that all teams aren't individually owned when they're not. AEG owns the Dynamo and Galaxy I believe. Either way, the league isn't doing nearly as bad as that other poster said.

 

[kdb209]

MLS just signed a new deal with the ESPN networks for a rights fee in the neighborhood of $50 million (something the NHL couldn't do) to show one game per week on their new "Soccer Thursday" showcase. ABC will show the All-Star Game and MLS Cup (and likely Beckham's first match).

The 51% of each team being owned by MLS is patently false. Have no idea where you came up with that. Each team is owned and run by individual owners and entities. MLS controls player allocations and transfers, but they certainly don't own teams.

I won't even comment on your "72nd best league" comment. Laughable.

The ESPN/ABC deal is NOT $50M/yr - $50M total over it's 8 year life, maybe. The deal, signed in Aug 2006 pays $7M-$8M/yr through 2014. The total MLS Brodcast revenues are only ~$15M/yr:

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6359744.html

The current deals will bring in upwards of $15 million annually. Sources with knowledge of the deals put the ABC/ESPN deal at $7-8 million per year, Fox Soccer Channel at $5 million per year, and HDNet at $2-3 million per year.

Actually, MLS (AEG) does own multiple teams. MLS was originally a single entity league where the league (and its primary investors) owned all of the franchises and contracts were all centrally negotiated/dictated. Over time, some, but not all teams were sold off to seperate individual owners.

In 2001, 6 of the 10 teams were owned by AEG. Three have been since sold off, but AEG still owns 3 teams - LA, Chicago, and Houston (formerly San Jose). This led to some rather underhanded dealings in player transfers (see Donovan, Landon). The other major investor, Lamar Hunt, owned 3 teams untill last year when he sold off KC - Hunt Sports still owns Columbus and Dallas. Ownership has diversified a bit - there are now 10 owners and 13 teams.

MLS revenues are MUCH, MUCH smaller than the NHL.

 

[DJA]

The ESPN/ABC deal is NOT $50M/yr - $50M total over it's 8 year life, maybe.

Never said it was.

Actually, MLS (AEG) does own multiple teams.

Since when does MLS = AEG? Again, MLS does not own teams. Individual entities (some owning more than one team, including AEG and HSG) own teams.

All of you guys are going off on a tangent about "individual owners" - my point was that the original poster was full of crap by claiming that MLS owned 51% of each team. Are we all in agreement on that??

 

[OG6ix]

The ESPN/ABC deal is NOT $50M/yr - $50M total over it's 8 year life, maybe. The deal, signed in Aug 2006 pays $7M-$8M/yr through 2014. The total MLS Brodcast revenues are only ~$15M/yr:

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6359744.html


Actually, MLS (AEG) does own multiple teams. MLS was originally a single entity league where the league (and its primary investors) owned all of the franchises and contracts were all centrally negotiated/dictated. Over time, some, but not all teams were sold off to seperate individual owners.

In 2001, 6 of the 10 teams were owned by AEG. Three have been since sold off, but AEG still owns 3 teams - LA, Chicago, and Houston (formerly San Jose). This led to some rather underhanded dealings in player transfers (see Donovan, Landon). The other major investor, Lamar Hunt, owned 3 teams untill last year when he sold off KC - Hunt Sports still owns Columbus and Dallas. Ownership has diversified a bit - there are now 10 owners and 13 teams.

MLS revenues are MUCH, MUCH smaller than the NHL.

The league has been around for like a decade though. Their ratings mirror that of the NHL though.

 

[kdb209]

Never said it was.



Since when does MLS = AEG? Again, MLS does not own teams. Individual entities (some owning more than one team, including AEG and HSG) own teams.

All of you guys are going off on a tangent about "individual owners" - my point was that the original poster was full of crap by claiming that MLS owned 51% of each team. Are we all in agreement on that??

True, the 51% is crap - it's actually 100%.

The league itself actually owns all of the clubs. The teams owners/investors do not actually own their clubs - they own a certain percentage of the league itself.

From MLS's own website:

INVESTORS:

Major League Soccer is structured as a single, limited liability company (single-entity). In the single-entity business structure, club operators own a financial stake in the league, not just their individual team. The MLS investors are:

• Phil Anschutz & the Anschutz Entertainment Group (AEG): Investor-operator of Chicago Fire, Houston Dynamo, D.C. United and Los Angeles Galaxy (other domestic sports business ventures include the Staples Center, the Home Depot Center, the NBA's Los Angeles Lakers and the NHL's Los Angeles Kings).
• The Hunt Family (Hunt Sports Group): Investor-operator of FC Dallas and the Columbus Crew (other sports business ventures include the NFL's Kansas City Chiefs and NBA's Chicago Bulls).
• Red Bull Company Limited: The Austrian company that produces the world's leading energy drink owns Red Bull New York. Other sports investments by Red Bull include a NASCAR team, Red Bull Salzburg, extreme sports and Formula One auto racing.
• The Kraft Family (Kraft Soccer): Investor-operator of the New England Revolution (other sports business ventures include the NFL's New England Patriots).
• Kroenke Sports Enterprises: Investor-operator of the Colorado Rapids (other sports business ventures include the NBA's Denver Nuggets, NHL's Colorado Avalanche and NFL's St. Louis Rams).
• Dave Checketts & Sports Capital Partners: Investor-operator of Real Salt Lake (Checketts is the former president of the NHL's New York Rangers, the NBA's New York Knicks and Madison Square Garden).
• Jorge Vergara & Antonio Cue: Investor-operator of Club Deportivo Chivas USA (other sports business ventures include soccer club Chivas de Guadalajara in Mexico and soccer club Saprissa in Costa Rica)
• Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment: Investor-operator of Toronto FC (other sports business ventures include the NHL's Toronto Maple Leafs and the NBA's Toronto Raptors).
• OnGoal, LLC: Investor-operator group of the Kansas City Wizards consists of six Kansas City area residents led by Cerner Corporation executives Neal Patterson and Cliff Illig.

The single operator model allowed the league to avoid anti trust challenge to their centralized operations - and avoid the need to deal with messy things like CBAs, Players Associations, and Lockouts.

MLS Players challenged the league organization and rules under US Anti Trust law - and lost - Frasier v. Major leage Soccer

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=1st&navby=case&no=011296

A description of the MLS ownership model from the 1st Circuit court decision:

MLS has, to say the least, a unique structure, even for a sports league. MLS retains significant centralized control over both league and individual team operations. MLS owns all of the teams that play in the league (a total of 12 prior to the start of 2002), as well as all intellectual property rights, tickets, supplied equipment, and broadcast rights. MLS sets the teams' schedules; negotiates all stadium leases and assumes all related liabilities; pays the salaries of referees and other league personnel; and supplies certain equipment.

At issue in this case is MLS's control over player employment. MLS has the "sole responsibility for negotiating and entering into agreements with, and for compensating, Players." In a nutshell, MLS recruits the players, negotiates their salaries, pays them from league funds, and, to a large extent, determines where each of them will play. For example, to balance talent among teams, it decides, with the non-binding input of team operators, where certain of the league's "marquee" players will play.

However, MLS has also relinquished some control over team operations to certain investors. MLS contracts with these investors to operate nine of the league's teams (the league runs the other three). These investors are referred to as operator/investors and are the co-defendants in this action. Each operator/investor has the "exclusive right and obligation to provide Management Services for a Team within its Home Territory" and is given some leeway in running the team and reaping the potential benefits therefrom.

Specifically, the operator/investors hire, at their own expense and discretion, local staff (including the general managers and coaches of their respective teams), and are responsible for local office expenses, local promotional costs for home games, and one-half the stadium rent (the same portion as MLS). In addition, they license local broadcast rights, sell home tickets, and conduct all local marketing on behalf of MLS; agreements regarding these matters do not require the prior approval of MLS. And they control a majority of the seats on MLS's board, the very same body which runs the league's operations. Among other things, the board is responsible for hiring the commissioner and approving national television contracts and marketing decisions, league rules and policies (including team player budgets), and sales of interests.

The operator/investors also play a limited role in selecting players for their respective teams. While the operating agreements provide that the operator/investors will not bid independently for players against MLS, they may trade players with other MLS teams and select players in the league's draft. Such transactions, however, must follow strict rules established by the league. Most importantly, no team may exceed the maximum player budget established by the management committee.

In return for the services of the operator/investors, MLS pays each of them a "management fee" that corresponds (in large part) to the performance of their respective team. The management fee equals the sum of one-half of local ticket receipts and concessions; the first $1,125,000 of local broadcast revenues, increasing annually by a percentage rate, plus a 30% share (declining to 10% by 2006) of any amount above the base amount; all revenues from overseas tours; a share of one-half the net revenues from the MLS Championship Game and a share of revenues from other exhibition games.

The remaining revenues of the league are distributed in equal portions to all investors. Thus, while the investors qua investors share equally in the league's profits and losses, the individual team operators qua operators fare differently depending at least in part on the financial performance of their respective teams. It bears mentioning, however, that neither the league nor, apparently, any of its teams has yet made a profit.

Although the league retains legal title to the teams, the operator/investors may transfer their operating rights, within certain limits, and retain much of the value created by their individual efforts and investments. Investors may transfer their ownership stakes and operating rights to other current investors without obtaining prior consent; transfers to outside investors, however, require a two-thirds majority vote of the board. For its part, MLS may terminate any operating agreement on its own initiative if, by a two-thirds vote of the board, an operator/investor is determined to have failed to act in the best interests of the league. If so, it must still pay such operator/investor fair market value for its operating rights and ownership interest.

 

[mr gib]

True, the 51% is crap - it's actually 100%.

The league itself actually owns all of the clubs. The teams owners/investors do not actually own their clubs - they own a certain percentage of the league itself.

From MLS's own website:


The single operator model allowed the league to avoid anti trust challenge to their centralized operations - and avoid the need to deal with messy things like CBAs, Players Associations, and Lockouts.

MLS Players challenged the league organization and rules under US Anti Trust law - and lost - Frasier v. Major leage Soccer

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=1st&navby=case&no=011296

A description of the MLS ownership model from the 1st Circuit court decision:

quality post there mate - was looking at the same stuff myself -

MLS is determined to build a credible league -

http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/161112/signing-beckham-just-one-of-many-significant-developments

 

[nyrmessier011]

Average MLS attendance is ABOUT 15,000, the NHL ABOUT 17,000 (soccer specific venues hold about 25,000, others hold on average 65,000, just throwing some numbers out there, average NHL venue holds 19,000). They're collecting $10 million a year in TV revenues and are on ESPN/ABC, NHL $50 million and are on Versus/NBC. MLS has a cap between $1-1.5 million with one franchise exception, NHL $44 million. NHL might look like they own the MLS, and it does, but there are half as many MLS teams, so the pieces of the pie are cut in half for the NHL team. With the Beckham signing and raised awareness of American soccer, we can expect the MLS to grow even more. For a league that has been around for ten years this isn't bad. Don't want to turn this into another Bettman bashing thread, but the way the NHL is being handled and thrown into the toilet, we need some new people in charge or the MLS is on pace to match the NHL within 15 years. I am talking a worst case scenario here of course so don't start calling names.

 

[azsharkfan]

Average attendance numbers do NOT equate to actual ticket sales revenue.

NO WAY...NO WAY are they averaging above 15,000 per game.

72nd...
Currently, according to IFFHS, MLS is ranked only 72 in the top world leagues:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer

Salaries:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/mls/longterm/2006/mls.salaries.html

51% ownership
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...f+mls,+51%+ownership&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Bottom line...do NOT question my intelligence re: the MLS!

 

[OG6ix]

Single entity system is interesting to be honest. It doesn't really matter though, the "investors" are still paying for their teams so they are basically owners of the team.

 

[kdb209]

51% ownership
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...f+mls,+51%+ownership&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Bottom line...do NOT question my intelligence re: the MLS!

Did you actually read that article, or just google "mls 51 ownership"?

Nowhere in that article did it say that MLS owned 51% of each team - all it said was that the league revenue sharing formula gave the investor operators 49% of gate revenues. That is NOT the same as 49% ownership.

From an industrial organization perspective, the most important aspect of the new
league structure is the "single-entity" concept. While individual teams have local "owner-
operators," each of these is really an investor who buys into the single-entity league. The
league, in turn, operates as a monopsonist in the labor market (disregarding international
competition) and formally holds all player contracts. A revenue-sharing scheme allows
individual owner-operators to keep just 49% of the "gate" (including ticket revenues, parking,
and other concessions), while the rest passes on to the league. In addition to paying player
salaries and league overhead, these shared revenues fund a national advertising campaign.
Local promotions--from goodwill appearances in youth camps to ads in local newspapers--are
the responsibility of the individual clubs.

 

[lemieux32*]

Average attendance numbers do NOT equate to actual ticket sales revenue.

NO WAY...NO WAY are they averaging above 15,000 per game.

72nd...
Currently, according to IFFHS, MLS is ranked only 72 in the top world leagues:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer

The fact that you use rankings from IFFHS as fact shoots down everything you say. In their current club rankings they have Manchester United #28, behind such clubs as Newcastle, FC Basle, Rapid Bucuresti, Lille, Olympique Marseille, Schalke, etc. Yeah, MLS is worse then league in Oman, Uzbekistan, Angola, etc. Romania above Portugal and Scotland? Jens Lehmann ranked ahead of Cech, Van Der Sar and Casillas???? I could go on but you get my point...it's as joke.

 

[jsginsocal]

This article will give you a good laugh about MLS attendance.

Lets not forget that we can pick up an MLS ticket for $5 or $10 bucks either.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/soccer/20060927-9999-lz1s27goal.html

 

[Hasbro]

In Denver the Rapids are getting a new stadium, which is a third of the capacity of Mile High and will be in Commerce City an unattractive industrial suburb as opposed to the Downtown area with all of the other stadiums.

 

[jsginsocal]

In Denver the Rapids are getting a new stadium, which is a third of the capacity of Mile High and will be in Commerce City an unattractive industrial suburb as opposed to the Downtown area with all of the other stadiums.

I guess that is what happens when you can only avg 8000 paid tickets a game and virtually no corporate support.