NHL to play (games) in Russia?

Barclay Donaldson

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The KHL was created out of the old Russian Super League to compete with and overtake the NHL. They announced their plans to do two things:
  1. Stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific with upwards of 60 teams
  2. Prevent the best Russian and European players from leaving for the NHL
They obviously failed in both regards. All but one of their European teams failed and the best players from Europe and Russia still leave for the NHL. Not only that, but every team loses a significant amount of money to the point that their owners (mostly Russian government-owned companies like Gazprom, OAO, <MOD>) have referred to them variously as "social donations" and "burdens they wouldn't wish upon their own children." Jokerit is the team with the third best financial statements, and they lose more than 10 million euro every season.

I will be surprised to see the day that the NHL plays the KHL, whose sole reason for creation was to overtake the NHL and have spent literally hundreds of millions of dollars in trying to overthrow the NHL. I'll believe it when the games are scheduled and not a moment before.
 
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kaiser matias

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The KHL was created out of the old Russian Super League to compete with and overtake the NHL. They announced their plans to do two things:
  1. Stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific with upwards of 60 teams
  2. Prevent the best Russian and European players from leaving for the NHL
They obviously failed in both regards. All but one of their European teams failed and the best players from Europe and Russia still leave for the NHL. Not only that, but every team loses a significant amount of money to the point that their owners (mostly Russian government-owned companies like Gazprom, OAO, <MOD>) have referred to them variously as "social donations" and "burdens they wouldn't wish upon their own children." Jokerit is the team with the third best financial statements, and they lose more than 10 million euro every season.

I will be surprised to see the day that the NHL plays the KHL, whose sole reason for creation was to overtake the NHL and have spent literally hundreds of millions of dollars in trying to overthrow the NHL. I'll believe it when the games are scheduled and not a moment before.

You recall the Hurricanes played SKA Saint Petersburg in Petersburg back in October 2010?
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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You recall the Hurricanes played SKA Saint Petersburg in Petersburg back in October 2010?

Yes. That was in 2010, 2 years after the KHL was formed. The KHL was still essentially the RSL. The expansionist, anti-NHL, international Russian propaganda machine didn’t begin until the summer of 2012 when the KHL expanded into Europe with Lev Poprad, Slovan Bratislava, along with the unsuccessful attempts like Crowns and the rest.
 

tony d

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Interesting. Got to think if they do play games in Russia Ovie and the Capitals would be one of the teams involved.
 

Yukon Joe

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I suspect the league is more thinking about taking the global series to Russia, with the NHL playing a regular season game in Russia, ratehr than going over to play exhibition games against the KHL.

There are a variety of sanctions in place against Russia though, many focused on the oligarchs who control KHL teams (and thus their arenas). I suspect it would be hard to pull off games in Russia without running afoul of the sanctions.
 

LadyStanley

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Alluded to this on Twitter the other day, but the NHL is not giving up on attempts to hold regular-season games in Russia. There was a desire to do it for next season, but logistical challenges will prevent that from occurring. However, the league will try for 2021–22. The NHL would not confirm the teams, but, if it were to have happened next season, it looked like St. Louis vs. Washington. It would be incredible to watch, something that someone born in 1970 (like myself) never thought they would see in their lifetime.

#MemoryOfColdWarDivisions
 

Exarz

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I suspect the league is more thinking about taking the global series to Russia, with the NHL playing a regular season game in Russia, ratehr than going over to play exhibition games against the KHL.

One thing doesn't happen without the other, that's for sure
 

Exarz

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The KHL was created out of the old Russian Super League to compete with and overtake the NHL. They announced their plans to do two things:
  1. Stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific with upwards of 60 teams
  2. Prevent the best Russian and European players from leaving for the NHL
They obviously failed in both regards. All but one of their European teams failed and the best players from Europe and Russia still leave for the NHL. Not only that, but every team loses a significant amount of money to the point that their owners (mostly Russian government-owned companies like Gazprom, OAO, <MOD>) have referred to them variously as "social donations" and "burdens they wouldn't wish upon their own children." Jokerit is the team with the third best financial statements, and they lose more than 10 million euro every season.

I will be surprised to see the day that the NHL plays the KHL, whose sole reason for creation was to overtake the NHL and have spent literally hundreds of millions of dollars in trying to overthrow the NHL. I'll believe it when the games are scheduled and not a moment before.
To be fair, that's not really the league's plan (any more). Sure, the league established in order to fill a non-existing competition with the NHL and failed to do so (especially after 2014), but they've created a completely new strategy that includes cutting costs, decreasing the amount of teams etc. We'll see which path the league will take with the new league president, but I really doubt they would get any more "hostile" towards the NHL.

The only thing "stopping" players from moving across the pond is pretty much development now, where both the KHL and the RHF embrace players to stay and develop their game a few extra years in Russia before moving to North America (something I think more European players should do in their respective league)
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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To be fair, that's not really the league's plan (any more). Sure, the league established in order to fill a non-existing competition with the NHL and failed to do so (especially after 2014), but they've created a completely new strategy that includes cutting costs, decreasing the amount of teams etc. We'll see which path the league will take with the new league president, but I really doubt they would get any more "hostile" towards the NHL.

The only thing "stopping" players from moving across the pond is pretty much development now, where both the KHL and the RHF embrace players to stay and develop their game a few extra years in Russia before moving to North America (something I think more European players should do in their respective league)

They’re still upset that the NHL takes their best players and gives the rejects back. While the hostility has died down some, the next president will decide a lot.

Also, Russian players cannot leave until their contract is expired. And considering most of those contracts are multi-year, they try to hold on to their players for as long as possible.
 

Exarz

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They’re still upset that the NHL takes their best players and gives the rejects back. While the hostility has died down some, the next president will decide a lot.

Also, Russian players cannot leave until their contract is expired. And considering most of those contracts are multi-year, they try to hold on to their players for as long as possible.
I would also like the best players of my favourite team to stick around as long as possible, that's just business. I don't have the direct source, but if I remember correctly, the RHF stated that the best time to move over to the NHL was around the age of 23, which might explain why most of the top prospects come over during that year. Right or wrong, I believe it goes both ways. Some players would maybe have a direct impact on their NHL team, but the majority would probably move too early when they could've developed their game better in Russia, which is a lose-lose situation.

And since the KHL is moving to a smaller ice surface, I lean more towards letting home-grown players develop their game at home and more or less be NHL ready players once they sign with a team – instead of letting them struggle in the AHL (not only with their game but also the social adjustment that needs to be made)
 

Barclay Donaldson

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I would also like the best players of my favourite team to stick around as long as possible, that's just business. I don't have the direct source, but if I remember correctly, the RHF stated that the best time to move over to the NHL was around the age of 23, which might explain why most of the top prospects come over during that year. Right or wrong, I believe it goes both ways. Some players would maybe have a direct impact on their NHL team, but the majority would probably move too early when they could've developed their game better in Russia, which is a lose-lose situation.

And since the KHL is moving to a smaller ice surface, I lean more towards letting home-grown players develop their game at home and more or less be NHL ready players once they sign with a team – instead of letting them struggle in the AHL (not only with their game but also the social adjustment that needs to be made)

The only issue I have with all of that is not everyone develops at the same pace. So players are either forced to move away from home very quickly to play North American in order to avoid being tied up in the contract, like the Svechnikovs, Kucherovs, Kostins, and Abramovs, or they get tied up in the contract and aren't able to leave because of it, like the Romanovs, Sorokins, etc. It's the same thing as the NHL/CHL agreement, there is no standard development style that can be applied to everyone.

Regardless of the KHL moving to the smaller ice surface, the style of play is different. The smaller ice surface will not change how much more physical and demanding the North American game is. It's another reason why so many Russian players are now playing major junior, so they don't have to adapt when they turn pro. It's easy to see the talent difference between two players like Abramov and Kravtsov with Kravtsov clearly having more talent, but Abramov is more prepared and more fit for the North American game.
 
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Rigafan

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The only issue I have with all of that is not everyone develops at the same pace. So players are either forced to move away from home very quickly to play North American in order to avoid being tied up in the contract, like the Svechnikovs, Kucherovs, Kostins, and Abramovs, or they get tied up in the contract and aren't able to leave because of it, like the Romanovs, Sorokins, etc. It's the same thing as the NHL/CHL agreement, there is no standard development style that can be applied to everyone.

Regardless of the KHL moving to the smaller ice surface, the style of play is different. The smaller ice surface will not change how much more physical and demanding the North American game is. It's another reason why so many Russian players are now playing major junior, so they don't have to adapt when they turn pro. It's easy to see the talent difference between two players like Abramov and Kravtsov with Kravtsov clearly having more talent, but Abramov is more prepared and more fit for the North American game.

Maybe not every player in the world wants to go to North America, learn an new language and fit into a new culture?

Maybe they are happy to play for their home town team earning hundreds of thousands, even millions and living a nice easy life?
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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Maybe not every player in the world wants to go to North America, learn an new language and fit into a new culture?

Maybe they are happy to play for their home town team earning hundreds of thousands, even millions and living a nice easy life?

I strongly disagree with you. Then get rid of the requirement that forces players to honor their contracts. That is the only thing that is keeping players like Sorokin, Romanov, Denisenko, Podkolzin and many others in the KHL.

Every post-Soviet era European player who could play in the NHL has at least tried. Even for Mozyakin, they told him they wanted him to develop first and then move up, like we have seen since with varying success with Grigorenko, Shestyorkin, Shipachyov, Voynov. Mozyakin said something along the lines of "first line or nothing" and he got nothing, much like Filatov and the rest. Every single good European player at least makes the attempts.
 

vorky

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I strongly disagree with you. Then get rid of the requirement that forces players to honor their contracts. That is the only thing that is keeping players like Sorokin, Romanov, Denisenko, Podkolzin and many others in the KHL.

Every post-Soviet era European player who could play in the NHL has at least tried. Even for Mozyakin, they told him they wanted him to develop first and then move up, like we have seen since with varying success with Grigorenko, Shestyorkin, Shipachyov, Voynov. Mozyakin said something along the lines of "first line or nothing" and he got nothing, much like Filatov and the rest. Every single good European player at least makes the attempts.
No thanks. We, Europeans, do not need that bold part.

On the contrary, all teams & leagues, including the NHL, should honor players contracts in other leagues in all world. No transfer agreement with NHL in its current form. If you want to sign a player, go to his team, agree on a transfer fee and sign him. Or honor his deal & wait for him for years. All, easy and simple. Of course, the NHL does not want it.

All that "ged rid of honoring contracts" has taken European club hockey to hell. You can read how SHL player re-signed in SHL for a few seasons, just to sign in KHL a few weeks later for a free contract because he has "KHL opt-out clause." That rules are ruining European club hockey. And we can "thank" to Swedes, the biggest NHL colony ever, for that rules.

End of story.

Btw, hats off to Swiss & the KHL for fighting for the interests of their leagues. They are sole European leagues not signing the horrible NHL Transfer Agreement.
 

Jussi

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Or honor his deal & wait for him for years.

More like year or two tops. No smart agent allows his client, a young player with NHL on his mind, to sign a long contract outside Russia. European clubs are financially much better off getting money than not getting money.

European hockey is doing quite well too, CHL is becoming more and more popular, new teams making the finals, Finland becoming World Champions with no NHL players. We're doing just fine without doing something stupid like not having a transfer agreement.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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No thanks. We, Europeans, do not need that bold part.

On the contrary, all teams & leagues, including the NHL, should honor players contracts in other leagues in all world. No transfer agreement with NHL in its current form. If you want to sign a player, go to his team, agree on a transfer fee and sign him. Or honor his deal & wait for him for years. All, easy and simple. Of course, the NHL does not want it.

All that "ged rid of honoring contracts" has taken European club hockey to hell. You can read how SHL player re-signed in SHL for a few seasons, just to sign in KHL a few weeks later for a free contract because he has "KHL opt-out clause." That rules are ruining European club hockey. And we can "thank" to Swedes, the biggest NHL colony ever, for that rules.

End of story.

Btw, hats off to Swiss & the KHL for fighting for the interests of their leagues. They are sole European leagues not signing the horrible NHL Transfer Agreement.

Thank you for actually providing evidence in my favor. You want to protect the league's talent because you know that they will always leave for the NHL. The KHL would not need the transfer protection if their players did "not every player in the world wants to go to North America, learn an new language and fit into a new culture? Maybe they are happy to play for their home town team earning hundreds of thousands, even millions and living a nice easy life?" as Rigafan stated word for word. If they weren't interested in leaving, that contract protection wouldn't be needed

We, as Europeans, understand that the KHL wants (or wanted, they spectacularly failed with that European/ world power adventure) to become the dominant power and take the good players. They wanted to be the ones that rule in every country. The KHL and you wanted to protect your best players and take everyone else's. It would be trading one super power for another. I would only take the KHL because team's aren't ruled by government-owned companies, and have millions in subsidized losses, and aren't trying to put teams everywhere and anywhere in order to compete.

The only good solution is ensuring that every league is independent, individually strong, and able to stand up for themselves like in football. You know, like it is right now after the KHL European failure. Everyone getting behind the KHL will solve nothing.
 

vorky

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Your traditional insulation of the European club hockey, as usual.

My point is as follows. All leagues and clubs, especially small clubs/leagues, should be protected from big leagues/clubs. Hence, honouring the contracts of every player in any league around the world. Unfortunately, that is not the case in hockey.

Of course, your narrative is typically American - every individual has a right to move anywhere anytime anyhow. We should not respect the interests of society because individual rights are above society.

We in Europe have a different point of view. Yes, an individual has his rights, but we need to keep an eye on the society as well. Society is something more than an individual person. In Russia, it is even more clear in favour of society.

By society I mean a league, especially financially & all weak league
By individual, I mean a player

Nobody would be happier than me if Swedes, Finns, Czechs & other Europeans invested billions or trillion of dollars/euro into clubs hockey in Europe. Sadly they do not care.
 

Barclay Donaldson

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Of course, your narrative is typically American - every individual has a right to move anywhere anytime anyhow. We should not respect the interests of society because individual rights are above society.

We in Europe have a different point of view. Yes, an individual has his rights, but we need to keep an eye on the society as well. Society is something more than an individual person. In Russia, it is even more clear in favour of society.

I am European, and I agree politically that the interests of the many outweigh the interests of the few. I also correctly pointed out that the many is the players trying to go play hockey in North America. This goes back to you hating the NHL because they take the best players, it's just that it is later rather than sooner. The individuals are the ones who choose never to go to North America, the many are the statistically proven more that try and go over. This is players only. Although with the large numbers of Europeans traveling early to play NCAA and CHL, that might change.

By society I mean a league, especially financially & all weak league

You mean the KHL? Needing every single team to be subsidized by the government in order to exist?
 

Rigafan

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I'm not going to quote as I want to answer in general and not seem like it's directed, cause it's not.

'Hating the NHL'. I don't think I've ever met any hockey fan who has hated the NHL? I've met a lot who hate the KHL however, which is interesting. I just think that not everybody wants to go to the top. Not everybody is built for the big league. Look at the Swiss for example. A Swiss player can play all his career for his hometown team and earn a hell of a living. I use Swiss because they are relatively few players that go to the NHL.

Plus the NHL needs the Euro leagues. Especially the players who don't make the NHL. There'd be plenty more unemployed people in Canada if the Euro leagues didn't exist, where would all their players go to play?

The NHL being its own thing, away from the IIHF is clearly the issue for the Euro teams. They don't have to respect anything, fair enough, and usually try to make their gentleman's agreements. Either way the contract situation is a mess. Not even just in the NHL. Teams in the UK/France for example will do all they can to sign a decent standard import.. just for him to leave a week later cause a team in Germany wants him!

My other point is, maybe it needs it's own thread who knows. When anything is mentioned about the KHL people always go back to the "well it's funded by the government and business loans". Why does that matter? Who cares? In a way it's safer, isn't it? These teams don't need to worry about bad results or bad economies as they will always be funded. Where as most other leagues rely on a certain number of fans coming each week or the team dies.
 

vorky

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I will quote just one paragraph by @Rigafan

The NHL being its own thing, away from the IIHF is clearly the issue for the Euro teams. They don't have to respect anything, fair enough, and usually try to make their gentleman's agreements. Either way the contract situation is a mess. Not even just in the NHL. Teams in the UK/France for example will do all they can to sign a decent standard import.. just for him to leave a week later cause a team in Germany wants him!

That is really a big issue. I have counted a few such guys in the Swedish SHL. They have recently signed for upcoming seasons, but all have the KHL-out-clauses. Likely free-out-clauses. And SHL clubs can do anything with it.

The same happens with the NHL.

I have always advocated the balanced transfer system rules. Unfortunately, such rules are not a case in hockey. And there is one league who started this unbalanced transfer system years ago. Sadly, the IIHF could do nothing with it.

And even worse is that some (ohh ... vast majority) Euro hockey officials have no objections against the current transfer system rules. They even do not care to do anything with it. Sadly.
 

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