League News: NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) Vol. 6

[marcel snapshot]

And this Babcock story is ridiculous. Had that team won game 7 last year, no one would give a damn what he told the team about Marner. Just collective beatdown of a man who didn't meet the media's expectations.

Also possible that a key reason the team has never gotten out of the first round is that Babcock's pre-historic methods and so perpetually-hypertense-it-looks-like-all-his-blood-vessels-could-pop-at-any-moment manner turned guys into uptight, stressed-out, stuck-in-their-head-while-they-think-about-the-stupid-detail-Coach-is-obsessing-on-this-week headcases when it most counted. Sure that team is built in a highly questionable manner - but the Babs stuff with Franzen back w/the Wings and Marner (and this stuff is like cockroaches - if there are 2 such stories, there's a bunch more we don't see) raise real questions about his ability to lead a team built around some young guys that are just not going to respond to that troglodyte shit anymore.

 

[txpd]

On this hand Babcock. On the other hand Trotz. Where does Scotty Bowman and Al Arbour and Glen Sather fall into this? How about Coach, just scratch Kempny, Quennville?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

we talkin bout practice?!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

On this hand Babcock. On the other hand Trotz. Where does Scotty Bowman and Al Arbour and Glen Sather fall into this? How about Coach, just scratch Kempny, Quennville?

Scotty B, while a great coach, was not a nice man. I heard him scream at fans asking players for autographs once.....total dick.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm not an authority, that's my opinion and I guarantee you I can share it with anyone while looking equally "tough" behind a screen with a made up name or in real life. What these people gain from this stuff is obvious. They get attention, become relevant in their own way while they were absolutely irrelevant beforehand and these are things that are easily monetized in today's life. They'd had nothing to gain from it at the time when that bad stuff happened to them aside from self respect but of course self-respect is not appealing enough to risk it all and step forward. Instead you do it years later when it's cool and popular and ruin someone's life just because you didn't have the balls big enough to handle the problem with someone you didn't like. Especially embarrassing for a guy of Aliu size who could have easily put anybody in their place if he wanted to. Now that everyone knows that you're a bad hockey player and all you can do from this situation is gain something, not lose, you go out there and play a hero, courageous guy who speaks up his mind on big social matter. Just lame all around.

careful our resident social activists will out you for victim shaming.

I agree somewhat with the piling on aspect, but it’s very easy to suggest powerless employees stand up for themselves and much harder to actually do it.

 

[txpd]

Scotty B, while a great coach, was not a nice man. I heard him scream at fans asking players for autographs once.....total dick.

I heard from players on those teams that Bowman would go the entire season without speaking to many of his players. I am pretty sure that I heard Rod Langway say that.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

Sharks fans can be extremely conceited. I know a few on the main boards too who are very arrogant about their team and aren't willing to acknowledge that the Sharks aren't any good. Every year it is the same crap from them. They never, ever criticize them.

That, plus Thornton taking Oshie out with a DIRTY hit as well as Kane on Gudas, and there is no reason for me to cheer for San Jose.

It is "popular" to "cheer for Caps West" because they " struggled in the playoffs like the Caps did" yet San Jose has repeatedly won playoff series (with or without the assistance of officiating which is another reason to detest them) and has made the Western Conference Final twice in the last 5 years.

Yep and many would say the Caps West is the St Louis Blues. I always viewed the Blues as our Western Conference cousins.

 

[txpd]

careful our resident social activists will out you for victim shaming.

I agree somewhat with the piling on aspect, but it’s very easy to suggest powerless employees stand up for themselves and much harder to actually do it.

I am always interested to see that outing someone for shaming you or harassing you or attacking you doesn't at the same time destroy your own reputation or at the minimum taint you. People doing this kind of thing thinking the attention is positive are mistaken and there is a lenthy track record to show that ahead of time. Ive been thru it myself and kept my mouth shut and paid the price. Had I spoken out I might never have worked again.

 

[g00n]

Is everyone talking about the same thing?

There's a big difference between being thin-skinned about criticism vs. someone flat out abusing you based on non-work-related aspects of your personhood.

Talking now about adult coaches using some of the stuff I've read as an example (maybe I don't know enough to make a good analysis, fwiw):

• A coach being a little hard on a player to motivate him can be called a style of coaching.
  
• A coach humiliating a player for his performance in front of peers can also be a tool, however effective or ineffective.
  
• A coach using a rookie's confidential analysis of his peer's work habits to shame him and others is questionable as a tactic and most likely creates resentment and distrust rather than the desired effect.
  
• A coach blasting you in the locker room by using racial slurs should not be acceptable, even if it's only exposed years later.

Does anyone think Peters is being punished just for that one act, or that he's changed from age 43 to 53 regarding his use of those slurs?

What's the difference between the player standing up then (and possibly losing his career right at the start) vs. speaking out later when everyone's had a shot at making some money first? Isn't the delayed punishment really BETTER for Peters than some kid "being a man" and confronting him 10 years ago?

I don't get how anyone can think Peters is the victim because his career was extended 10 years longer than it maybe should've lasted.

Do you know how many jobs I would've lost if I'd confronted every racist or clearly wrong comment made by bosses over the years? EVERYONE who's been through that knows how it goes, and it doesn't stop with one boss or one job.

Chances are your only options are anonymous whistleblowing (which may or may not get the coach fired, and in small groups will not really be anonymous) or keeping your head down. Then when you're at a safer distance personally, emotionally, and financially maybe you can deal with the fallout and save other people the same pains.

Why is the young AHL player the one who should be held accountable for his choices in dealing with a boss probably twice his age, and who holds that player's career in his hands? If you don't want to have your "life ruined" then maybe don't use racial slurs when dressing down your employees.


If you can't work as a firefighter without burning down houses and getting your buddies killed, don't be a firefighter.

If you can't work with people without using racist or sexist insults, don't take a job working with people.


Pretty simple, and a lot more reasonable than expecting everyone else to just put up with your racist shit.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

I'm not an authority, that's my opinion and I guarantee you I can share it with anyone while looking equally "tough" behind a screen with a made up name or in real life. What these people gain from this stuff is obvious. They get attention, become relevant in their own way while they were absolutely irrelevant beforehand and these are things that are easily monetized in today's life. They'd had nothing to gain from it at the time when that bad stuff happened to them aside from self respect but of course self-respect is not appealing enough to risk it all and step forward. Instead you do it years later when it's cool and popular and ruin someone's life just because you didn't have the balls big enough to handle the problem with someone you didn't like. Especially embarrassing for a guy of Aliu size who could have easily put anybody in their place if he wanted to. Now that everyone knows that you're a bad hockey player and all you can do from this situation is gain something, not lose, you go out there and play a hero, courageous guy who speaks up his mind on big social matter. Just lame all around.

Honest question: do you think people wait around for 10, 15, however many years holding this stuff in saying, "I just can't wait to make myself relevant again and am looking for the right moment to do it?" And you say they had nothing to gain but self-respect? Maybe they were ashamed or confused and talking about would have had the complete opposite effect of gaining self-respect. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten any respect because it wasn't acceptable for people to speak about these issues before. And maybe they had everything else -- careers, reputations, money -- to lose. For a player like Aliu, if he spoke up then maybe people say, "he's only saying this because he's a shitty hockey player." It's lose-lose most of the time in these scenarios.

Another question: do you think the gymnasts abused by Nassir were just looking for notoriety when they finally spoke out? Or the guys in the Sandusky case? You're spewing a ton of generalizations so I want to understand your position on when it's ok to speak out.

Just for the record: I am not a fan of the cancel culture or piling on people when they're down just to get a leg up or feel important. The blue checkmarks on Twitter looking for likes and retweets drive me nuts. That said, I think brushing all of these cases with a broad stroke and judging their "toughness" as you're doing is why people don't speak out in the first place, or why the feel bad about speaking out later.

Last point: physical stature has nothing to do with this. The point of abuse or belittling people is to transfer power and bigger dudes often feel the most shame because people think they should pop someone in the mouth. Just food for thought.

 

[Melkor]

Honest question: do you think people wait around for 10, 15, however many years holding this stuff in saying, "I just can't wait to make myself relevant again and am looking for the right moment to do it?" And you say they had nothing to gain but self-respect? Maybe they were ashamed or confused and talking about would have had the complete opposite effect of gaining self-respect. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten any respect because it wasn't acceptable for people to speak about these issues before. And maybe they had everything else -- careers, reputations, money -- to lose. For a player like Aliu, if he spoke up then maybe people say, "he's only saying this because he's a ****ty hockey player." It's lose-lose most of the time in these scenarios.

Another question: do you think the gymnasts abused by Nassir were just looking for notoriety when they finally spoke out? Or the guys in the Sandusky case? You're spewing a ton of generalizations so I want to understand your position on when it's ok to speak out.

Just for the record: I am not a fan of the cancel culture or piling on people when they're down just to get a leg up or feel important. The blue checkmarks on Twitter looking for likes and retweets drive me nuts. That said, I think brushing all of these cases with a broad stroke and judging their "toughness" as you're doing is why people don't speak out in the first place, or why the feel bad about speaking out later.

Last point: physical stature has nothing to do with this. The point of abuse or belittling people is to transfer power and bigger dudes often feel the most shame because people think they should pop someone in the mouth. Just food for thought.

My stance on this is pretty simple: if you feel that you got humiliated by somebody in any way be it verbal assault or physical altercation or rape or whatever you have to do something about it right away no matter what some random douchebags with microphones or those who attacked you would say about you. You got personally attacked - do something about it, period. If you didn't at the time then that either wasn't insulting enough for you to clap back with literally anything or you just soft as a butter and is not prepared for this life at all because there's a ton of bad stuff that would happen to you literally anywhere anytime and you can't just rely on media to have your back when shits going down.

 

[Melkor]

Wow this guy is at it again.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

My stance on this is pretty simple: if you feel that you got humiliated by somebody in any way be it verbal assault or physical altercation or rape or whatever you have to do something about it right away no matter what some random *****ebags with microphones or those who attacked you would say about you. You got personally attacked - do something about it, period. If you didn't at the time then that either wasn't insulting enough for you to clap back with literally anything or you just soft as a butter and is not prepared for this life at all because there's a ton of bad stuff that would happen to you literally anywhere anytime and you can't just rely on media to have your back when ****s going down.

Edit: Couldn't disagree more w/ this take. A ton of false bravado here.

 

[g00n]

Edit: Couldn't disagree more w/ this take. A ton of false bravado here.

Ayup. The world is far more complex than "react now or shut up forever". Hard to even contemplate how that could be considered a valid ethos given how complex the adult world is, and how petty people can be in retaliation.

 

[Melkor]

Edit: Couldn't disagree more w/ this take. A ton of false bravado here.

False for who? You? I'm not arguing that. It's obviously just my opinion from my own experience. It's actually funny that something you disagree with automatically qualifies as "false". "Things are more complicated than that", dude. Best of luck to all the heroes battling with their enemies decades after the actual fight.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Ayup. The world is far more complex than "react now or shut up forever". Hard to even contemplate how that could be considered a valid ethos given how complex the adult world is, and how petty people can be in retaliation.

It's not a valid ethos; it's misplaced machismo.

 

[twabby]

Imagine saying a rape victim needs to come forward immediately or else they’re weak. [mod]

 

[Calicaps]

Imagine saying a rape victim needs to come forward immediately or else they’re weak. [mod]

I'm just gonna add here that rape is the extreme. I don't know a single woman, including myself, who's never been insulted or made deeply uncomfortable by the conduct of a male superior at some point in their careers. That's not to say everything rises to the level of harassment, but either way you let it go because the professional risks of making a fuss are too great. But I also know women who've passed on a job offer because they knew something from friends, prior experience, or professional acquaintances about a man who would become their superior. Not to even speak of the hundreds (thousands?) of times in life that a woman is hollered at by some guy on the street and just walks a little faster while staring at the sidewalk.

Point being, power dynamics are real, and they have a huge influence on how people handle situations in the moment and even years after the fact.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Ayup. The world is far more complex than "react now or shut up forever". Hard to even contemplate how that could be considered a valid ethos given how complex the adult world is, and how petty people can be in retaliation.

not saying he’s right, but what’s that saying?

There are sheep and there are wolves...

standing up for yourself is tough. Some people aren’t built for it and never will. Cruel world.

 

[txpd]

not saying he’s right, but what’s that saying?

There are sheep and there are wolves...

standing up for yourself is tough. Some people aren’t built for it and never will. Cruel world.

When standing up for yourself gets you blackballed for life you are a sheep if you don't?

 

[Calicaps]

When standing up for yourself gets you blackballed for life you are a sheep if you don't?

Precisely. Why stand up for yourself if it’s likely only to add insult to injury? But at some future time when you’re more insulated, telling the truth could help spare someone else the same misery. I can’t understand why people think that’s a bad thing.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

When standing up for yourself gets you blackballed for life you are a sheep if you don't?

There's no singular answer....so it depends?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Precisely. Why stand up for yourself if it’s likely only to add insult to injury? But at some future time when you’re more insulated, telling the truth could help spare someone else the same misery. I can’t understand why people think that’s a bad thing.

Principle? Pride? Self worth? Self respect? Strong belief in what's right? Preventing others from suffering the same or similar if not worse fates? There are plenty of reasons to on both sides of this issue it's hardly worth going into. I'm not saying there aren't potential scenario's where standing up for yourself isn't entirely painful if not unbearable for some.

 

[Calicaps]

Principle? Pride? Self worth? Self respect? Strong belief in what's right? Preventing others from suffering the same or similar if not worse fates? There are plenty of reasons to on both sides of this issue it's hardly worth going into. I'm not saying there aren't potential scenario's where standing up for yourself isn't entirely painful if not unbearable for some.

Worked well for Caepernick, no?

 

[txpd]

There's no singular answer....so it depends?

That's right. Even the wolve runs when there is a bear threatening