NHL PLAYOFFS 2019 - Part 2

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5ive4Fighting

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- Pierre Dorion on getting a new girlfriend

LOL. I think part of the reason that was so maddening was that the basic analogy does work for the emotional side of fandom. Once you get past the initial disappointment there has to be a reckoning with the fact that these players didn’t want to be here, a place we’re still choosing. Who cares who they’re scoring* with now.

*Ha ha!
 

BonkTastic

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You don't think signing JT was the right thing?

If I was GM with a young roster like Toronto's I do that signing 10/10 times.

The big difference is I would have looked into trading Nylander for a young star defenseman.

I don't think signing JT was an answer to anything that was wrong with the Leafs.

Signing JT offered the Leafs an opportunity to fix holes on their roster if they had moved one of the players JT made redundant (Kadri... heck, even Matthews, which is going to be a hot take I guess but I stand by it from an asset-management and cap management perspective), which they completely squandered.
 
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SPF6ty9

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I don't think signing JT was an answer to anything that was wrong with the Leafs.

Signing JT offered the Leafs an opportunity to fix holes on their roster if they had moved one of the players JT made redundant (Kadri... heck, even Matthews, which is going to be a hot take I guess but I stand by it from an asset-management and cap management perspective), which they completely squandered.

I had the same opinion at first. But I think looking back on things I like the decision from a Leaf fans perspective. If Nylander gets his game back, the Leafs can roll the equivalent of 2 top lines for basically 2/3 of the game. With Rielly breaking out they've built a strong team in the Pittsburgh mold. If they were to truly follow that model, then I guess Kadri would be the one who's on his way out. The cap will likely keep going up giving them some relief with Marner, Tavares, and Matthews on the books; as long as they draft well and can provide serviceable debt to their stars, I would expect them to win a cup at some point.

As for Dubas hate, I think a lot of that stems from jealousy. The guy is in his early 30s and already has one of the top jobs in hockey. He has massive expectations thrust on him and the Leafs are drawing more scrutiny than ever now that they're relevant and every move matters that much more. The only thing I dislike that he did was the timing and structure of the Matthews deal. But at least he got that done, which is more than we can say about our golden boy GM.
 
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TonySoprano11

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The love affair people still have with Erik Karlsson here is unreal. The more I watched him play this season, and this post season, the more I believe the trade was a good thing for this franchise. It is clear that his injuries are becoming a serious issue for him. Yes, he is still a great player in the NHL, and can still put up dazzling performances. Yet, he is no longer the Norris caliber player he used to be and that is a direct result of the multiple injuries he has sustained.

How many times do we have to keep hearing "Can you imagine how much better he would be if he wasn't playing injured?" "Yeah he's only playing OK right now, but thats because he obviously injured or recovering from an injury. We've been hearing that for 3 years now. THREE YEARS!

However, some team is going to sign this guy to a mega 7+ year deal for 11m or more per season. A couple years into that deal, and a couple more injuries and that team is going to start rethinking that decision.

Don't get me wrong EK65 will still be a good player in this league for a few more years, but we'll never see him at his Norris winning days again.
 

coladin

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I had the same opinion at first. But I think looking back on things I like the decision from a Leaf fans perspective. If Nylander gets his game back, the Leafs can roll the equivalent of 2 top lines for basically 2/3 of the game. With Rielly breaking out they've built a strong team in the Pittsburgh mold. If they were to truly follow that model, then I guess Kadri would be the one who's on his way out. The cap will likely keep going up giving them some relief with Marner, Tavares, and Matthews on the books; as long as they draft well and can provide serviceable debt to their stars, I would expect them to win a cup at some point.

As for Dubas hate, I think a lot of that stems from jealousy. The guy is in his early 30s and already has one of the top jobs in hockey. He has massive expectations thrust on him and the Leafs are drawing more scrutiny than ever now that they're relevant and every move matters that much more. The only thing I dislike that he did was the timing and structure of the Matthews deal. But at least he got that done, which is more than we can say about our golden boy GM.
Well, he did say that signing the "kids" was the easy part. He royally screwed up with Nylander. The entire hockey world was saying to him that he should move him. He wants center money. Not only did he sign him and had him come in rusty as hell, he also stated to him and one and all, that he will not trade him. 6 goals. Now what? Let's see how easy it is to sign Marner lol.

I guess part of the hate is the national media fawning over how great the Leafs rebuild has been and how the young genius has it all figure out. They now have three first round losses. They were in control of this series three times. Their coach is tremendously out of tune. I loved the Marleau question last night lol. 8M coach? He hasn't got out of the first round in 6 years!

He got Jake Muzzin. That's it. He and the organization obviously felt they could challenge for a Cup with Muzzin, while being an injury away from Ozhiganov or Marincin. Why would you spend all that money on Tavares, and not get more defensive help...it's the playoffs!

It just never made any sense. Anyways, not our problem!
 

Agent Zub

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The love affair people still have with Erik Karlsson here is unreal. The more I watched him play this season, and this post season, the more I believe the trade was a good thing for this franchise. It is clear that his injuries are becoming a serious issue for him. Yes, he is still a great player in the NHL, and can still put up dazzling performances. Yet, he is no longer the Norris caliber player he used to be and that is a direct result of the multiple injuries he has sustained.

How many times do we have to keep hearing "Can you imagine how much better he would be if he wasn't playing injured?" "Yeah he's only playing OK right now, but thats because he obviously injured or recovering from an injury. We've been hearing that for 3 years now. THREE YEARS!

However, some team is going to sign this guy to a mega 7+ year deal for 11m or more per season. A couple years into that deal, and a couple more injuries and that team is going to start rethinking that decision.

Don't get me wrong EK65 will still be a good player in this league for a few more years, but we'll never see him at his Norris winning days again.

Chill he had a 35-40 game stretch where he was arguably the best player in the league just this season.

Then he had a groin injury and is still playing through it. AND STILL had 9 assists in a single playoff series which is the the 3rd highest total by a defenceman ever.

If he recoups from his groin injury, and there's no evidence he won't, hes gonna be a Norris contender for a long time. Especially since he's adapted his offensive game to rely more on his passing and IQ rather than his skating.

I get the injury concerns but this is arguably his first injury that didn't come from a fluke play.

Imagine giving up early on Alfredsson or a Crosby because of their injuries.
 
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topshelf15

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I had the same opinion at first. But I think looking back on things I like the decision from a Leaf fans perspective. If Nylander gets his game back, the Leafs can roll the equivalent of 2 top lines for basically 2/3 of the game. With Rielly breaking out they've built a strong team in the Pittsburgh mold. If they were to truly follow that model, then I guess Kadri would be the one who's on his way out. The cap will likely keep going up giving them some relief with Marner, Tavares, and Matthews on the books; as long as they draft well and can provide serviceable debt to their stars, I would expect them to win a cup at some point.

As for Dubas hate, I think a lot of that stems from jealousy. The guy is in his early 30s and already has one of the top jobs in hockey. He has massive expectations thrust on him and the Leafs are drawing more scrutiny than ever now that they're relevant and every move matters that much more. The only thing I dislike that he did was the timing and structure of the Matthews deal. But at least he got that done, which is more than we can say about our golden boy GM.
Kadri hasnt grown up,and its cost them....He just needs to go,along with Gardener ...Those two are ruined in Toronto now
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

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The love affair people still have with Erik Karlsson here is unreal. The more I watched him play this season, and this post season, the more I believe the trade was a good thing for this franchise. It is clear that his injuries are becoming a serious issue for him. Yes, he is still a great player in the NHL, and can still put up dazzling performances. Yet, he is no longer the Norris caliber player he used to be and that is a direct result of the multiple injuries he has sustained.

How many times do we have to keep hearing "Can you imagine how much better he would be if he wasn't playing injured?" "Yeah he's only playing OK right now, but thats because he obviously injured or recovering from an injury. We've been hearing that for 3 years now. THREE YEARS!

However, some team is going to sign this guy to a mega 7+ year deal for 11m or more per season. A couple years into that deal, and a couple more injuries and that team is going to start rethinking that decision.

Don't get me wrong EK65 will still be a good player in this league for a few more years, but we'll never see him at his Norris winning days again.

We received nothing of importance in return for him. We saved money that we aren't even really going to spend under this ownership group. I will take the overpaid and injured EK instead.
 
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bert

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A healthy ek is the best player left in the playoffs. The longer San Jose stays in the playoffs the more dominating EK will get imo.

It's a lot to ask for him to be 2017 EK but if he can adapt his play I can see him having a monster series.

Simply not true Mackinnon is better than Karlsson has ever been right now, he is the best player on the planet. Karlsson isnt even a top 10 player right now, he isnt healthy and has been getting absolutely destroyed from a defensive standpoint all playoffs long. He was amazing in game 1 then he obviously tweeked something, he was good in game 6 other than that he did not have a good series. Before everyone attacks me I know how good Karlsson is I am one of his biggest supporters. His raw natural talent is unbelievable he is one of the all time greats. But that doesnt mean other players and teams dont exist. He is injury proned now, his lack of commitment off ice is why. Unless he changes his mind set this will continue to happen.

If you dont believe me just tune into the next round the proof will be right there for you to watch. You will see how good Nathan Mackinnon is.

I didn't see a lot of the series because I work at 6 but what I did see Karlsson got better as it went along. Game 6 in OT he was unbelievable. Only reason they won imo. And then again last night when it mattered he got it done. No defenseman I'd rather have than him.

No the reason they won was Jones and a lucky break on the goal where it changed direction off of Theodores stick.

Their top line disappeared for 2 games,at 3 to 1 if you go to a game 7 then likely you have already lost the series

They had close to 60 shots in game 6 to San Jose's 30 they didnt dissapear Jones stood on his head.

Had no idea how blinded this fan base can be by Karlsson. Its wild.

How many points did he get playing on one leg?

How many goals were scored when he was on the ice? I am all for pumping Karlsson when he is dominating at both ends of the ice if you actually watched the series you would know this was the furthest thing from the truth. Stone was a WAY better player than Karlsson in this series he was the best player in the series. Karlsson wasnt even the best player on his team or even top 3. Couture, Hertl and Meier were all much better.
 

danielpalfredsson

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That San Jose/Vegas game was nuts. Games like that make me believe that hockey is pre-determined like pro wrestling. I get Vegas fans being angry for being jobbed, but as a neutral fan, the entertainment value was incredible.

I will admit that I am pulling for San Jose purely because I want to be a jerk about having their pick next year and subtly bring it up on main board threads while pretending I am actually really empathetic to their situation.

I wonder if Labanc was on the table at all in the Karlsson deal. At the time of the trade, he probably had similar value to Tierney. I've sometimes wondered if the pieces involved changed the day training camp opened up. Pageau got injured really early in the morning, and then there seemed to be a delay in when people expected a Karlsson trade to be announced by (I think 1PM?) and when it was actually announced. I wonder if we took Tierney instead of Labanc or someone else because we lost a center for what we thought would be almost the entire season. Not suggesting Meier or Hertl would have been on the table.
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

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Simply not true Mackinnon is better than Karlsson has ever been right now, he is the best player on the planet. Karlsson isnt even a top 10 player right now, he isnt healthy and has been getting absolutely destroyed from a defensive standpoint all playoffs long. He was amazing in game 1 then he obviously tweeked something, he was good in game 6 other than that he did not have a good series. Before everyone attacks me I know how good Karlsson is I am one of his biggest supporters but that doesnt mean other players and teams dont exist. He is injury prone now, his lack of commitment off ice is why unless he changes his mind set this will continue to happen.

If you dont believe me just tune into the next round the proof will be right there for you to watch.



No the reason they won was Jones and a lucky break on the goal where it changed direction off of Theodores stick.



They had close to 60 shots in game 6 to San Jose's 30 they didnt dissapear Jones stood on his head.

Had no idea how blinded this fan base can be by Karlsson. Its wild.



How many goals were scored when he was on the ice? I am all for pumping Karlsson when he is dominating at both ends of the ice if you actually watched the series you would know this was the furthest thing from the truth. Stone was a WAY better player than Karlsson in this series he was the best player in the series. Karlsson wasnt even the best player on his team or even top 3. Couture, Hertl and Meier were all much better.

I think your criticisms are valid, but I also don't hes been downright awful and admire his effort despite the obvious injury he is dealing with. He looks slow as F compared to healthy Karlsson out there.

I also understand not wanting to invest in a player that could potentially have recurring injuries now, but guess what? Were not investing in ANYONE. Well, we might invest in Cody Ceci. I'd rather take the risk and invest in Karlsson.

I am sure a team with some cash to spend will take the chance on Erik, and if his careers dwindles due to injury he will go on LTIR and insurance will take care of the rest.
 

Agent Zub

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Simply not true Mackinnon is better than Karlsson has ever been right now, he is the best player on the planet. Karlsson isnt even a top 10 player right now, he isnt healthy and has been getting absolutely destroyed from a defensive standpoint all playoffs long. He was amazing in game 1 then he obviously tweeked something, he was good in game 6 other than that he did not have a good series. Before everyone attacks me I know how good Karlsson is I am one of his biggest supporters but that doesnt mean other players and teams dont exist. He is injury prone now, his lack of commitment off ice is why unless he changes his mind set this will continue to happen.

Absolutely agree, this is the worst I have ever seen Karlsson play. I'm not debating that. Mack has been 10x better player this post season.

I would still take a prime Karlsson over MacKinnion because I can't imagine Nate carrying the 2017 sens like Karlsson did. It's not even that Mack isn't as impactful on the ice it's just that Karlsson was playing 35-40 minute games and dominating.

He's the only player in the league who I believe can carry a team to a cup. In part because he's a defenceman and in part because he's Erik Karlsson.
 
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DaveMatthew

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The love affair people still have with Erik Karlsson here is unreal. The more I watched him play this season, and this post season, the more I believe the trade was a good thing for this franchise. It is clear that his injuries are becoming a serious issue for him. Yes, he is still a great player in the NHL, and can still put up dazzling performances. Yet, he is no longer the Norris caliber player he used to be and that is a direct result of the multiple injuries he has sustained.

How many times do we have to keep hearing "Can you imagine how much better he would be if he wasn't playing injured?" "Yeah he's only playing OK right now, but thats because he obviously injured or recovering from an injury. We've been hearing that for 3 years now. THREE YEARS!

However, some team is going to sign this guy to a mega 7+ year deal for 11m or more per season. A couple years into that deal, and a couple more injuries and that team is going to start rethinking that decision.

Don't get me wrong EK65 will still be a good player in this league for a few more years, but we'll never see him at his Norris winning days again.

You’re surprised that a fanbase has a love affair with a defenseman who, by the age of 26, had won two Norris trophies, had put together one of the most impressive playoff performances this franchise has ever seen, and had an offensive skillset that was considered to be among all-time greats like Denis Potvin and Paul Coffey?

Really?

We always hear the, “In a few years the team will regret that contract” but when it comes to superstars, that’s hardly ever the case.

Chicago doesn’t regret signing Kane. Pittsburgh doesn’t regret signing Malkin and Crosby. Washington doesn’t regret signing Ovechkin. Philadelphia doesn’t regret signing Giroux.

You get into trouble when you give big money and term to borderline “at-the-time” top players like Ryan and Lucic.

Not when you sign superstars. What happened in Ottawa was unparalleled.

A team will give Karlsson 7 years at 10 million plus, and believe me, they won’t regret it, Just like Toronto won’t regret signing Tavares.

By the way, “good but not Norris trophy winning” Karlsson has 54 points in 60 games so far this season.

But sure, we're better off with Dylan Demelo, Chris Tierney and the hope that Josh Norris becomes a 2nd line center and Erik Brannstrom can one day QB an NHL powerplay.
 

RealSpartan

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Us fans can complain, but the players who get driven away by it and for whom it is a much bigger part of their life have to suck it up. And if they ever speak ill of the organization than **** em, they should just be sucking it up for our entertainment.


:sarcasm:
They don't have to suck anything up. They can move on (as he and many did) and get rewarded handsomely for doing so.

You just don't ever badmouth your former "employer" (or say anything that can be construed as such) no matter how bad it may have been.
 

DaveMatthew

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How many goals were scored when he was on the ice? I am all for pumping Karlsson when he is dominating at both ends of the ice if you actually watched the series you would know this was the furthest thing from the truth. Stone was a WAY better player than Karlsson in this series he was the best player in the series. Karlsson wasnt even the best player on his team or even top 3. Couture, Hertl and Meier were all much better.

And when it all came down to the end, who made the clutch plays that helped his team win the series? Karlsson. Down 3-0, he was great on that powerplay, and then made a fantastic play in OT.

That's all that matters, getting his team the win. He showed up when it mattered.

I love Stone, but in the the last 3 games, where they could have sent the Sharks home, he had 0 goals, 2 assists and was a -3. When the going got tough, Stone didn't come through. Karlsson did.

Stone was the best player in the first 3 games. But the series was 7.
 
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BatherSeason

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I guess part of the hate is the national media fawning over how great the Leafs rebuild has been and how the young genius has it all figure out. They now have three first round losses. They were in control of this series three times. Their coach is tremendously out of tune. I loved the Marleau question last night lol. 8M coach? He hasn't got out of the first round in 6 years!
The National media isn't fawning over Dubas, they are fawning over their precious Toronto Maple Leafs, same thing they have been doing for years. The National media has a hate on for Dubas because he is a young guy who never played the game and uses analytics as a resource. That's where the hate comes from. Because every "hockey man" has strong takes on Dubas, that trickles down to you and I, where you have decided that he is arrogant, while many other hockey fans have a far stronger hatred than that.

Everything else you mention here is about Babs, not Dubas. Dubas didn't hire Babcock to coach the Leafs, Dubas didn't sign Marleau. Babs is the overrated one. Dubas has only been the GM for one season, let him at least build a team in his mold before he gets kicked down the road.

PS I am not a Leafs fan, just have a hard time understanding the Dubas hatred, dude has more experience as a hockey executive than Pierre Dorion and can actually speak in public
 

topshelf15

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Simply not true Mackinnon is better than Karlsson has ever been right now, he is the best player on the planet. Karlsson isnt even a top 10 player right now, he isnt healthy and has been getting absolutely destroyed from a defensive standpoint all playoffs long. He was amazing in game 1 then he obviously tweeked something, he was good in game 6 other than that he did not have a good series. Before everyone attacks me I know how good Karlsson is I am one of his biggest supporters. His raw natural talent is unbelievable he is one of the all time greats. But that doesnt mean other players and teams dont exist. He is injury proned now, his lack of commitment off ice is why. Unless he changes his mind set this will continue to happen.

If you dont believe me just tune into the next round the proof will be right there for you to watch. You will see how good Nathan Mackinnon is.



No the reason they won was Jones and a lucky break on the goal where it changed direction off of Theodores stick.



They had close to 60 shots in game 6 to San Jose's 30 they didnt dissapear Jones stood on his head.

Had no idea how blinded this fan base can be by Karlsson. Its wild.



How many goals were scored when he was on the ice? I am all for pumping Karlsson when he is dominating at both ends of the ice if you actually watched the series you would know this was the furthest thing from the truth. Stone was a WAY better player than Karlsson in this series he was the best player in the series. Karlsson wasnt even the best player on his team or even top 3. Couture, Hertl and Meier were all much better.
Wasnt really talking about EK just the notion that LV got jobbed by the refs,they had the Sharks down 3 to 1 and couldnt put them away..That on them TBH
 

DaveMatthew

Bring in Peter
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They had close to 60 shots in game 6 to San Jose's 30 they didn't dissapear Jones stood on his head.

And in the first 3 games, Jones couldn't stop a beachball. So did they dominate, or just had it easy with a goalie playing terribly?

Can't have it both ways.
 

topshelf15

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Remember when Bryan Murray tried some last minute finagling with the Leafs at the draft table to try and get Kadri? Glad that didn't work out!
He is a good player ,but he really needs to learn how to agitate and not retaliate ....Just poke him a few times and he does something stupid everytime
 

Agent Zub

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Remember when Bryan Murray tried some last minute finagling with the Leafs at the draft table to try and get Kadri? Glad that didn't work out!

What lol. Kadri is a fantastic player who sometimes can cross the line but is a great player to have. He'd be our best center and our best forward.

Kadri >>≥>>> Cowen
 
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5ive4Fighting

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All these posters who would "take [EK/MS/MD]" over whoever in whatever circumstance are neglecting the fact that they didn't want to be here. We're not a market that can just max out every aspect of every important contract - or frankly any important contract -and cross our fingers and hope it works out for eight years, all on the premise that if we don't, other teams will. We have to offer fair contracts, and players have to want to be here.
 

BatherSeason

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All these posters who would "take [EK/MS/MD]" over whoever in whatever circumstance are neglecting the fact that they didn't want to be here. We're not a market that can just max out every aspect of every important contract - or frankly any important contract -and cross our fingers and hope it works out for eight years, all on the premise that if we don't, other teams will. We have to offer fair contracts, and players have to want to be here.
This argument has already happened over and over and over, no need to rehash it. All would be here still if "circumstances" were different (ie no Melnyk)

Read back, the posts are rather easy to find.
 
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5ive4Fighting

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He is a good player ,but he really needs to learn how to agitate and not retaliate ....Just poke him a few times and he does something stupid everytime

I'm not sure that's something that can be learned at this point. It seems to be kind of a baked-in personality/brain function thing that would require a fairly massive effort to adjust. He's past that point where a natural maturing should have taken care of it.
 
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