NHL move to Winnipeg 'a step back'

[dobiezeke*]

But asked for the government to put money to pay for some of the costs...

You want to post shots on this site please try to at least be versed in what has been reported...

 

[CpatainCanuck]

I don't understand how Winnipeg with a Metro population of less than 700,000 gets a team while Greater Toronto, with a population of almost 10 million within driving distance can't get a second team. Hamilton seems to me to be a no brainer that could easily become one of the 10 most profitable franchises in the league.

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

I don't understand how Winnipeg with a Metro population of less than 700,000 gets a team while Greater Toronto, with a population of almost 10 million within driving distance can't get a second team. Hamilton seems to me to be a no brainer that could easily become one of the 10 most profitable franchises in the league.

Winnipeg already has a rink free (even though it sucks) for the team to occupy until they can get a newer one built.

Also good luck on getting MLSE to give up territory.

 

[Ashe]

Hate to tell you, but I think the provincial government was eager to be involved for their own reasons. We don't even know how much money we're talking about yet.

So wait, The owners want money to make sure they dont lose money in winnipeg.
Just like phoenix wanted and the owner they had lined up.
How is this any different? It isn't.


Now to explain in further.

If Atlanta lost 20million in a year that they averaged 15500 fans. How do you think the jets will do? Thats the stadium cap right there.

So you up ticket prices to 85 bucks a ticket, and maybe break even with the current payroll and expenses.

Then, after the team misses the playoffs after a normal meltdown, and the next year comes.
Then when the islanders come to town, it's minus 40 outside and 10000 people show up, you are doing worse then Atlanta was. Sure, offseat a full game when the oilers come into town. And you are still drawing less then the Thrashers were. Or when players don't want to come to Winnipeg.

Forget "winnipeg is growing and can support a team". Winnipeg's arena is not financially viable to hold a sportsteam, Fanbase or Not. 750,000 People that at least 400k of them have heard about hockey, or watched hockey.

But include skyrocketing living costs, and day to day costs. How is that viable?

38k Annual income for Winnipeg
42k for Atlanta

Average housing price for Atlanta : $223,876
Average for Winnipeg : $241,650

Add in the 5.5 Million population where there is roughly 2 million untapped, oblivious to the game of hockey in general and in Atlanta.
Compared to 300k in Winnipeg. It's a step back, Its several steps back. Not just for the NHL, but for hockey's growth as a sport. It's up to the NHL to grow the league in untapped markets, To make sure stable ownership is there, and not sell off teams because the league is standing with their hands behind their back for 7 years, and in the month the news of the team has to find an owner or be gone, they stand pat.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Winnipeg already has a rink free (even though it sucks) for the team to occupy until they can get a newer one built.

Also good luck on getting MLSE to give up territory.

Hamilton has an arena with a larger capacity that is perfectly usable in the short term.

As for MLSE: Metropolitan New York has 3 teams that compete for viewers with about 10 other Major League Franchises. There is no reason Toronto should be exempt from the same kind of competition.

 

[AugustBurnsRed*]

Winnipeg already has a rink free (even though it sucks) for the team to occupy until they can get a newer one built.

Also good luck on getting MLSE to give up territory.

 

[macavoy]

I don't understand how Winnipeg with a Metro population of less than 700,000 gets a team while Greater Toronto, with a population of almost 10 million within driving distance can't get a second team. Hamilton seems to me to be a no brainer that could easily become one of the 10 most profitable franchises in the league.

crossposted from a hamilton dream thread by me:




Your hugely biased if you think the NHL will profit from being in Hamilton, the only person that will profit will be the franchise owner. The NHL as a whole will not make more money from being in Hamilton as opposed to Atlanta or Winnipeg.

The NHL being in Hamilton would only make ONE FRANCHISE OWNER RICH, the Hamilton franchise owner, the NHL is a business that is in the business of making 30 owners rich, not one.

The NHL wouldn't profit from going to Hamilton. It makes more money by starving the GTA and making money from new markets like Atlanta, Phoenix and Winnipeg. Phoenix has taxpayers subsidizing the NHL, the NHL isn't selling Toronto tickets to Peggers,

keeping the NHL out of southern ontario makes more money for the 29 other owners in the NHL.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

crossposted from a hamilton dream thread by me:




Your hugely biased if you think the NHL will profit from being in Hamilton, the only person that will profit will be the franchise owner. The NHL as a whole will not make more money from being in Hamilton as opposed to Atlanta or Winnipeg.

The NHL being in Hamilton would only make ONE FRANCHISE OWNER RICH, the Hamilton franchise owner, the NHL is a business that is in the business of making 30 owners rich, not one.

The NHL wouldn't profit from going to Hamilton. It makes more money by starving the GTA and making money from new markets like Atlanta, Phoenix and Winnipeg. Phoenix has taxpayers subsidizing the NHL, the NHL isn't selling Toronto tickets to Peggers,

keeping the NHL out of southern ontario makes more money for the 29 other owners in the NHL.

That makes no sense: No owners are making money from franchises that receive revenue sharing. In fact viable frachises are paying money out to these failing franchises.

 

[Jeremy Hronek]

So wait, The owners want money to make sure they dont lose money in winnipeg.
Just like phoenix wanted and the owner they had lined up.
How is this any different? It isn't.


Now to explain in further.

If Atlanta lost 20million in a year that they averaged 15500 fans. How do you think the jets will do? Thats the stadium cap right there.

So you up ticket prices to 85 bucks a ticket, and maybe break even with the current payroll and expenses.

Then, after the team misses the playoffs after a normal meltdown, and the next year comes.
Then when the islanders come to town, it's minus 40 outside and 10000 people show up, you are doing worse then Atlanta was. Sure, offseat a full game when the oilers come into town. And you are still drawing less then the Thrashers were. Or when players don't want to come to Winnipeg.

Forget "winnipeg is growing and can support a team". Winnipeg's arena is not financially viable to hold a sportsteam, Fanbase or Not. 750,000 People that at least 400k of them have heard about hockey, or watched hockey.

But include skyrocketing living costs, and day to day costs. How is that viable?

38k Annual income for Winnipeg
42k for Atlanta

Average housing price for Atlanta : $223,876
Average for Winnipeg : $241,650

Add in the 5.5 Million population where there is roughly 2 million untapped, oblivious to the game of hockey in general and in Atlanta.
Compared to 300k in Winnipeg. It's a step back, Its several steps back. Not just for the NHL, but for hockey's growth as a sport. It's up to the NHL to grow the league in untapped markets, To make sure stable ownership is there, and not sell off teams because the league is standing with their hands behind their back for 7 years, and in the month the news of the team has to find an owner or be gone, they stand pat.

You realize alot of the tickets were freebies right? or of reduced value.

 

[peter sullivan]

what does 'taking a step back' mean?

why is the goal always to 'sell' hockey to disinterested people?....what is the purpose of this strategy?......is baseball looking to teach the game to new markets?....

why is the NHL always trying to sell the game?

in my opinion a step forward means taking your weakest franchises and moving them locations where they will no longer be weak....that would be the measure of moving forward for every other league...every other business for that matter....why in the NHL is that considered a step backwards?...the NHL is not losing a giant tv market...it isnt losing a big fan base.....it will be increasing both with this move.

for me, that is a step forward....what happened in 1995 in quebec and 96 in winnipeg was the step backwards.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Is there any reason for this thread to still be open? This is just a rally point for pissed-off people to gripe and trash Winnipeg.

 

[zimmy61]

I don't understand how Winnipeg with a Metro population of less than 700,000 gets a team while Greater Toronto, with a population of almost 10 million within driving distance can't get a second team. Hamilton seems to me to be a no brainer that could easily become one of the 10 most profitable franchises in the league.

MLSE.

 

[Street Hawk]

Add in the 5.5 Million population where there is roughly 2 million untapped, oblivious to the game of hockey in general and in Atlanta.
Compared to 300k in Winnipeg. It's a step back, Its several steps back. Not just for the NHL, but for hockey's growth as a sport. It's up to the NHL to grow the league in untapped markets, To make sure stable ownership is there, and not sell off teams because the league is standing with their hands behind their back for 7 years, and in the month the news of the team has to find an owner or be gone, they stand pat.

Factor in MLB, NFL, and NBA into the equation in ATL and that eats up the population positive for ATL. Add in College sports for the Georgia Bulldogs and GT Yellowjackets and that cuts into it more.

What were the Thrashers charging for tickets? Lots of promos just to get people into the rink.

Non-traditional markets comes down to ownership. Without an owner who cares about the team, and the ASG doesn't care about the hockey team. Care about the NBA team and the arena only.

Can they find someone to own the team in ATL? That's why the NHL has to do a good job of approving the sale of a team. Don't want to see another Koules/Barrie situation in TB. 2 years, that's all they had the Lightning for. If no one steps up, what are your options at that point?

 

[zimmy61]

Winnipeg already has a rink free (even though it sucks) for the team to occupy until they can get a newer one built.

Also good luck on getting MLSE to give up territory.

Get a newer one built? You do realize that MTS Centre is five years newer than the ACC don't you?

 

[peter sullivan]

why is there this false notion that when it gets cold in winnipeg, people no longer go out?....weather will have no effect on attendance in any way....it will probably have less effect than the nice weather in atlanta and phoenix does...who wants to sit around a sheet of ice when its sunny and 25C outside?....-30C in winnipeg is good indoor event weather.

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

Get a newer one built? You do realize that MTS Centre is five years newer than the ACC don't you?

With a hockey capacity of around 15000, which is less than Phoenix draws vs certain opponents.

 

[macavoy]

That makes no sense: No owners are making money from franchises that receive revenue sharing. In fact viable frachises are paying money out to these failing franchises.

Actually Revenue sharing is a zero sum game. Next year, Toronto and Montreal will be force to share just as much revenue as they were this year. The only difference is the $5m that went to Atlanta last year, $2m goes to team zzzz and $1m goes to team cccc and $0.5m goes to team qqqqq and $0.2 goes to team jjjjjjj.

The rules of revenue sharing mean they have to share the same amount every year, moving Atl to Peg only changes who gets what, but money still gets shared.

 

[Doc Scurlock]

why is there this false notion that when it gets cold in winnipeg, people no longer go out?....weather will have no effect on attendance in any way....it will probably have less effect than the nice weather in atlanta and phoenix does...who wants to sit around a sheet of ice when its sunny and 25C outside?....-30C in winnipeg is good indoor event weather.

I know. I'm in Edmonton and when it's cold out you put on your winter jacket and you go out there. Honestly, from my experiences people who don't have the winters like we do just can't wrap their minds around this fact that life goes on even when it's freezing cold.

 

[Jet]

Before I X out this thread so I don't have to have my browser polluted by more anti-Winnipeg TRASH I will say my piece.

Moving to Winnipeg is far from a step back. Having a market with a beloved fan base for the sport, team and league is NOT a step back.

Having a team that can be self supporting is NOT a step back.

For me the mistake was that this should have been the Coyotes moving, a market that will NEVER EVER WORK. Atlanta if it was run even half assedly well could have been a real feather in the NHL's cap and I hope it returns.

Phoenix, or Florida are 2 teams that need to move or be contracted out. It would be amazing if one went to ATL and the other to QC.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Actually Revenue sharing is a zero sum game. Next year, Toronto and Montreal will be force to share just as much revenue as they were this year. The only difference is the $5m that went to Atlanta last year, $2m goes to team zzzz and $1m goes to team cccc and $0.5m goes to team qqqqq and $0.2 goes to team jjjjjjj.

The rules of revenue sharing mean they have to share the same amount every year, moving Atl to Peg only changes who gets what, but money still gets shared.

I don't know the rules of revenue sharing, but given your scenario 4 teams would be happy with the move: zzzz, cccc, qqqqq, and jjjjjjj. Even if Toronto and Montreal were not.

 

[Duckhole]

Before I X out this thread so I don't have to have my browser polluted by more anti-Winnipeg TRASH I will say my piece.

Moving to Winnipeg is far from a step back. Having a market with a beloved fan base for the sport, team and league is NOT a step back.

Having a team that can be self supporting is NOT a step back.

For me the mistake was that this should have been the Coyotes moving, a market that will NEVER EVER WORK. Atlanta if it was run even half assedly well could have been a real feather in the NHL's cap and I hope it returns.

Phoenix, or Florida are 2 teams that need to move or be contracted out. It would be amazing if one went to ATL and the other to QC.

I wish there was a giant x I could hit to make anti-phoenix TRASH disappear.

 

[macavoy]

why is there this false notion that when it gets cold in winnipeg, people no longer go out?....weather will have no effect on attendance in any way..

who has ever said that the weather will affect how many peggers attend the games? I don't think there has been a large number of people saying that.

read my last post, I said peggers are use to cold weather and will adjust. just like the people that have been there a long time, will learn to love the city.

but that doesn't mean, that someone who doesn't live there, will want to live there, that has been my point. I lived in winter climates and I'm use to the cold but I would honestly never want to live in the extremes of winter than winnipeg has.

Just like I would never want to live in the extremes that Jamaica has. Just because I don't want to live in an extreme hot tropic like Jamaica doesn't make it bad, it just means, the very large majority of people who didn't grow up in extreme tempature markets, don't want to live there.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Everyone has an opinion so here is mine. The NHL returning to Winnipeg is a step in the right direction. It will be followed by a team in Quebec City as soon as next year and likely another team in southern Ontario a few years after that. Hockey is important to Canadian culture so having a few more teams in the country of its birth is definitely a step forward and a step in the right direction!

Not to mention it will be good for business too. Put hockey teams where people care about the sport. A novel idea? Not really, but one that makes a lot of sense.

GHOST

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Before I X out this thread so I don't have to have my browser polluted by more anti-Winnipeg TRASH I will say my piece.

Moving to Winnipeg is far from a step back. Having a market with a beloved fan base for the sport, team and league is NOT a step back.

Having a team that can be self supporting is NOT a step back.

For me the mistake was that this should have been the Coyotes moving, a market that will NEVER EVER WORK. Atlanta if it was run even half assedly well could have been a real feather in the NHL's cap and I hope it returns.

Phoenix, or Florida are 2 teams that need to move or be contracted out. It would be amazing if one went to ATL and the other to QC.

It is very dicy if Winnipeg can be self supporting in the long term. Obviously for the first few years they will have a lot of support because the team is a novelty. It will take 5 years or more to judge whether the team can be successful long term.

As an example, Edmonton is having trouble being profitable, and they have a bigger population and more disposable money than Winnipeg.

 

[Doc Scurlock]

With a hockey capacity of around 15000, which is less than Phoenix draws vs certain opponents.

I think this has been said so many times but it isn't how many fans you bring in but how much they're willing to pay. For example I'm just throwing out some numbers, say the average ticket price in Phoenix is $35 and the average ticket price in Winnipeg will be $65. Who is making more money?

Hell, lets just say Phoenix has a freaky season where they sell out consistently and yet they still bring in only around $600,000 per game whereas Winnipeg brings in around $975,000. Of course, there are other factors but this is a basic idea.