NHL Making Contingency Plans for Arena-less Coyotes? (All Relo Speculation Here)

[BattleBorn]

Why would I, as a network, want to broadcast a game that is going to show 7,500 empty seats? I believe that when people see poorly attended leagues/sports on TV they are less inclined to watch. There have been studies done that support this.
I've watched some WJHC games in Europe where Canada is playing to about 120 people. It's hard to watch. Like the Ghost-game in Baltimore, it was neat....but really sucked the life out of the game for viewers.

I'd really like to see a study on this. It really runs counter to what we see in a lot of these college football bowl games. Half of them are played in front of half full (if they're lucky) stadiums, and yet they keep on adding them because the game is what people want to watch. I can't think of a time I've ever changed the channel because of a crowd. Heck, I tuned in to an Orioles game earlier this year just to watch a game without a crowd, lots of people did.

Image plays a role in this too, a big one. If tickets are hard to get everywhere....tv audiences are seeing nothing but full arenas...merchandise is flying off the shelves, broadcasters and sponsors will take notice. If it appears to be a hot ticket...it becomes a hot ticket.

I don't know man. While I agree that scarcity makes something more desired in most cases, I don't see the connection between that and television viewership. The crowd is nice and it acts as a soundtrack to the game, but it's not the reason people won't watch. ESPN recently experimented with having their commentators off site for some games (college basketball if I remember correctly.) Good crowd, people just didn't like it due to the lack of noise.

They're lumped in there in that they would be growing new fans, like you stated about Quebec - everyone there is already watching the NHL on TV and aside from ticket sales the league is already getting revenue from that market without a team. Las Vegas isn't like that...neither is Phoenix or Miami. There is so much room to grow, that doesn't mean you want lots of markets like this though. Just like you don't want a roster full of prospects, you don't want a league with too many of them either.

I agree. There should be a few frontier/growth teams. I figure it's sustainable to have 20% of the league in those locations, especially given the upside if they start taking off or the networks really value the ratings they're providing. However, those teams don't stay frontier or growth teams forever due solely to their location. Tampa is probably not a "frontier" market anymore and I don't think Nashville is either.

 

[aqib]

Has anyone in the PA besides Don come out and talk about mistakes the NHL has made? And why do you think that is? What is stopping them?
I never said that I have my pulse on all things us, you need to stop with that as a talking point. Besides, I'm pretty sure most people wanted to keep the Devils in town. Was that best option? Well attendances ebbs and flows, and the response to the rock has been neutral. The Islanders will do better at Atlantic Terminal, you know that and I know that.

Of course I did, I was 15 but I knew the game even then. You basically can say he made a mistake or his family didn't agree. It's the latter because Edmonton went to the cup.
Excuses. The dollar was not bad for all the 90's. The Oilers traded for Corson and then he wanted the hell out not too long after. Cujo? Come on, it has been more then 25 years of ineptitude. In that time before the lockout, Toronto which was in the same country signed Mogilny, Roberts and Joseph. The Leafs have a much longer cup drought. You mention, Calgary, I didn't because their never on these lists. Why? Calgary is a much better city the Edmonton. Banff is much closer. Edmonton also has a crime problem Calgary does not. Edmonton is the most northern city with 1 million people. Come one something has to give. It's been 10 years since the Oilers did anything. And there is no indication McDavid won't run back to Toronto when he hits FA. Fact is the younger canadian guys have been running for canadian markets except Toronto and Vancouver, and now no Canadian team has won the cup in 22 years. That can't all be on just Gary Bettman. BOG and players own that. I'll say this quickly about the NBA. Brand and Miles got sick. Carmelo did not want to opt out of his contract.
We would have more. And here's why: both the NHLPA membership and the NHL BOG have been paying lip service to the Canadian fans for 2 and a half decades. That's been my point all along. They probably should have kept Atlanta and moved the coyotes to Winnipeg, but they had little options.


I'll agree and I'll add this. The NHL will find it's self fighting NASCAR for number six if it keeps having blow ups like the Coyotes during the league finals. Just embarrassing all around not matter what side you're on.

Do you not know how Don Fehr runs things? No one talks. He keeps everyone in line. That's how he kept MLB as the one sport that doesn't have a salary cap. He kept hundreds of baseball players in line when they canceled the world series and when they were being hauled in front of Congress.

You call them excuses. I call it giving the complete picture. You can easily cherry pick a couple of Canadian teams that were struggling on the ice and weren't able to sign people and say it proves your point that no one wants to play there. However, there are reasons why that argument doesn't hold water, because at times that they were competitive they did sign guys. In Edmonton's case you can site Corson and I would tell you to ask Bill Guerin what it was like to play there and he isn't even Canadian. While it didn't work out for Pronger he did CHOOSE Edmonton over at least 4 other teams St Louis had deals in place with, and if his wife didn't find out about his other activities he probably would have stayed. But Kevin Lowe has been all kinds of garbage in the salary cap era so you can't say its because its Edmonton and not the Oilers organization, unless you just have an agenda. Your point about Connor McDavid is simply an assertion. Yes there is no evidence he won't leave when he is a free agent but there is no evidence that he will either. Its a long time between now and then. I could say "there is no evidence you don't fornicate with farm animals" but that doesn't actually prove anything. Players make decisions about where to play for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with geography. Why is it teams in the same sport in the same market have at various points had different degrees of success in terms of signing players? The Clippers couldn't sign guys while the Lakers got Hall of Famers like Gary Payton and Karl Malone to play for near minimum salary when they played in the same building because one was a well run org and the other was garbage. In the late 80s early 90s the Mets could sign anyone and the Yankees couldn't give their money away. Then the roles flipped. Did Queens suddenly become a worse place? You point on Carmelo is factually wrong. He was in his last year of his Denver deal, the Nets who were about to move to Brooklyn agreed to a trade he said no. The Knicks agreed to a trade he said yes. Both teams in the same damn city. I could write 50 pages on this to prove geography isn't the end all be all with players especially when you consider how little time they actually spend in the cities they play in. BTW who did your precious Atlanta ever sign?

Glad you brought up NASCAR. Why doesn't NASCAR have races in the NYC area. If I followed your logic, NASCAR should take races out of the south and put them in NYC for the purpose of growth. Because if 40K New Yorkers went to the a NASCAR race that would be better than 100K in a southern market because people in the south are already NASCAR fans, while a lot of people in NYC don't even own cars. Does that sound ridiculous?

Your last point about the Coyotes blow up hurting the NHL's popularity in the US, is built on the false assumption that the many Americans are even away that this is happening. How much coverage do you see of it since you are currently here? Go ESPN.com or SI.com or Foxsports.com or any other site its barely mentioned its not a blow up its a ripple.

 

[snowmobile]

NASCAR races at Watkins Glen New York . actually nascar is a good comparison to the NHL. Nascar moved races from two north Carolina tracks that were loved by all but very old/ small markets. They built huge tracks in ft. Worth, Chicago, LA, Kansas city to try to broaden the audience and a lot of fans including myself would like a return to the roots of nascar.

Nascar had huge attendance in early 2000's but now most tracks are removing seats to numbers that would work in the small NC tracks that they left in the first place

 

[Melrose Munch]

Do you not know how Don Fehr runs things? No one talks. He keeps everyone in line. That's how he kept MLB as the one sport that doesn't have a salary cap. He kept hundreds of baseball players in line when they canceled the world series and when they were being hauled in front of Congress.

Regardless you have no actual proof beyond the fact Fehr said the NHLPA should not pay for the NHL mistskes, which he is right about. Yet surveys these agents have done say otherwise. You have no proof he that way beyond the coyotes.

You call them excuses. I call it giving the complete picture. You can easily cherry pick a couple of Canadian teams that were struggling on the ice and weren't able to sign people and say it proves your point that no one wants to play there. However, there are reasons why that argument doesn't hold water, because at times that they were competitive they did sign guys. In Edmonton's case you can site Corson and I would tell you to ask Bill Guerin what it was like to play there and he isn't even Canadian. While it didn't work out for Pronger he did CHOOSE Edmonton over at least 4 other teams St Louis had deals in place with, and if his wife didn't find out about his other activities he probably would have stayed. But Kevin Lowe has been all kinds of garbage in the salary cap era so you can't say its because its Edmonton and not the Oilers organization, unless you just have an agenda. Your point about Connor McDavid is simply an assertion. Yes there is no evidence he won't leave when he is a free agent but there is no evidence that he will either. Its a long time between now and then. I could say "there is no evidence you don't fornicate with farm animals" but that doesn't actually prove anything. Players make decisions about where to play for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with geography. Why is it teams in the same sport in the same market have at various points had different degrees of success in terms of signing players? The Clippers couldn't sign guys while the Lakers got Hall of Famers like Gary Payton and Karl Malone to play for near minimum salary when they played in the same building because one was a well run org and the other was garbage. In the late 80s early 90s the Mets could sign anyone and the Yankees couldn't give their money away. Then the roles flipped. Did Queens suddenly become a worse place? You point on Carmelo is factually wrong. He was in his last year of his Denver deal, the Nets who were about to move to Brooklyn agreed to a trade he said no. The Knicks agreed to a trade he said yes. Both teams in the same damn city. I could write 50 pages on this to prove geography isn't the end all be all with players especially when you consider how little time they actually spend in the cities they play in. BTW who did your precious Atlanta ever sign?

This isn't about Atlanta, as they are not my team. The bad organization thing only goes so far. Yes people want no part of bad orgs. But were talking about when orgs are good. And the proof is right here: 23 years without a cup. They're excuses. Canadian teams (besides Toronto and Vancouver) have done poorly in FA since the millennium. You should be mad at the players, you mention guerin and weight, the oilers traded them because they could not afford them. Having said that, everyone on this board except for you (and I can find the threads) admits its either the cold weather, taxes, Language (quebec) or fishbowl media(this most common reason) why.

Glad you brought up NASCAR. Why doesn't NASCAR have races in the NYC area. If I followed your logic, NASCAR should take races out of the south and put them in NYC for the purpose of growth. Because if 40K New Yorkers went to the a NASCAR race that would be better than 100K in a southern market because people in the south are already NASCAR fans, while a lot of people in NYC don't even own cars. Does that sound ridiculous?

I don't know. But they aren't the biggest racing again because they didn't expand. Indy had a down period (thanks Tony George) and now they're back. There will be a race in NYC next year too.

Your last point about the Coyotes blow up hurting the NHL's popularity in the US, is built on the false assumption that the many Americans are even away that this is happening. How much coverage do you see of it since you are currently here? Go ESPN.com or SI.com or Foxsports.com or any other site its barely mentioned its not a blow up its a ripple.

Bad Press =/= hurting popularity. I just said it was a bad time for this to happen.


You need to direct this at the players and owners, and less other people who point this out.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I'd really like to see a study on this. It really runs counter to what we see in a lot of these college football bowl games. Half of them are played in front of half full (if they're lucky) stadiums, and yet they keep on adding them because the game is what people want to watch. I can't think of a time I've ever changed the channel because of a crowd. Heck, I tuned in to an Orioles game earlier this year just to watch a game without a crowd, lots of people did.

I'll try to find it, it's basically the reasoning behind advertisements saying 'while supplies last' or 'limited time only' or whatever. Scarcity heuristic. If we perceive something is hard to get or will not be available soon....we want it more.
Full stadiums give us the impression that tickets are a difficult thing to get and that we want to watch hockey more than we really do, because it's hard to get tickets to see it and because so many other people are doing it. Herd mentality as well. The perceived scarcity creates more ticket demand and more ticket demand justifies us in watching it on tv. It must be worth watching because so many people want to see it live.

I don't know man. While I agree that scarcity makes something more desired in most cases, I don't see the connection between that and television viewership. The crowd is nice and it acts as a soundtrack to the game, but it's not the reason people won't watch. ESPN recently experimented with having their commentators off site for some games (college basketball if I remember correctly.) Good crowd, people just didn't like it due to the lack of noise.

You're new to hockey, tuning in for one of the first times. Are you more likely to continue watching if there are 20,000 screaming fans being shown or if there are 9,500 seemingly quiet fans?
Is a party a great time when 4 people show up? Or 40?

People in the seats are watching the game, as a tv viewer I feel more justified in watching because others, seemingly lots, are paying a lot of money to watch the same thing. I feel like this is something worthwhile and validates me watching it.

You should hear the radio talk about the Pan Am games in Toronto. Mentioning how many tickets are still available and therefore making fun of the entire event. Why? Because if lots of people aren't buying tickets, it obviously isn't worth taking seriously or watching or buying tickets yourself. The herd has spoken that this isn't something you should be interested in. So you're not.

I agree. There should be a few frontier/growth teams. I figure it's sustainable to have 20% of the league in those locations, especially given the upside if they start taking off or the networks really value the ratings they're providing. However, those teams don't stay frontier or growth teams forever due solely to their location. Tampa is probably not a "frontier" market anymore and I don't think Nashville is either.

Nashville has seen very recent support, I don't think they are out of the woods yet. Ideally, after expansion/relocation you don't expand or relocate again until those teams look stable. Not thriving or at max outputs....but stable. The league expanded fast and therefore has fires still burning. While those fires are burning putting a team in another possible fire location isn't advisable, is it?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Maybe so but it's nothing more than jealousy. It's not some noble emotion that some people like to portray it as. It's ego. It's pride. It's simply not getting what you want and pouting over it. The worst part is the attempted justification of it. They mask that fundamental emotion with an argument for it being better for business or the game or whatever. That BS is what irks me.

A lot of choices are emotion. Part of this thread's existance is the emotion of the leagues top execs in wanting to stay in Phoenix.

 

[kdb209]

NASCAR races at Watkins Glen New York . actually nascar is a good comparison to the NHL. Nascar moved races from two north Carolina tracks that were loved by all but very old/ small markets. They built huge tracks in ft. Worth, Chicago, LA, Kansas city to try to broaden the audience and a lot of fans including myself would like a return to the roots of nascar.

Nascar had huge attendance in early 2000's but now most tracks are removing seats to numbers that would work in the small NC tracks that they left in the first place

And NASCAR was looking to build a track in NYC - and had bought development rights for a site on Staten Island.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.co...roposed-nascar-track-to-finally-be-developed/

What might have been for NASCAR will soon be what is to be for Staten Island.

About eight years ago, NASCAR purchased rights to 671 acres and had designs to build an 82,500-seat, ¾-mile track – similar to Richmond International Raceway – on an abandoned piece of land on the edge of the New York borough.

But a costly environmental cleanup, as well as significant public and political opposition, eventually forced NASCAR to forego the project and sell the land.

 

[aqib]

NASCAR races at Watkins Glen New York . actually nascar is a good comparison to the NHL. Nascar moved races from two north Carolina tracks that were loved by all but very old/ small markets. They built huge tracks in ft. Worth, Chicago, LA, Kansas city to try to broaden the audience and a lot of fans including myself would like a return to the roots of nascar.

Nascar had huge attendance in early 2000's but now most tracks are removing seats to numbers that would work in the small NC tracks that they left in the first place

Watkins Glen is 4 hours from NYC so its in New York State but not the city where the "growth" would be. Both of the Cali tracks are in counties on that are out side the big MSAs San Benadino and Sonoma County. Because thats where the market is. Like you don't see them trying to take Candlestick Park's old spot or trying to go where the Oakland arena and Coliseum are if those teams leave? Why is that? Its not their market. Not every sport is going to go mainstream and they have to accept who they are. The Winter Olympics is never going to be as popular globally as the Summer Olympics. It is what it is.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

How do you feel about the whole 'Occupy' movement? You cool with being the 99%?

Is that jealousy?

If markets submitted resumes for teams and say Miami got the job instead of Quebec, if Quebec is upset about that is it jealousy? Are you simply jealous of the less-qualified person that got the job instead of you? Or do you have a legit beef?

You can't seriously think those comparisons are apt, do you? The NHL is a product. It's not a job and it's not some large-scale socioeconomical issue either. Your livelihood is not at stake here whether you get a team or not. This is part of the problem. Making the issue a lot larger than it really is. At the end of the day, this is an entertainment product. It needs to be kept in perspective.

 

[kdb209]

And NASCAR was looking to build a track in NYC - and had bought development rights for a site on Staten Island.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.co...roposed-nascar-track-to-finally-be-developed/

And another ownership group - which owns 50% of Richard Petty Motorsports - is looking into a NYC track.

http://beyondtheflag.com/2015/02/08/nascar-building-race-track-big-apple/

edit: I knew that name sounded familiar. Murstein's name came up in some old Pittsburgh and Florida threads. He was behind Sports Properties Acquisition Corp, which did an IPO in 2008 to raise capital to (unsuccessfully) buy a pro sports franchise.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/24/idUS228709+24-Jan-2008+BW20080124

edit 2:

Watkins Glen is 4 hours from NYC so its in New York State but not the city where the "growth" would be.

Actually the closest track is Pocono Raceway - ~100 miles from NYC.

 

[BattleBorn]

I'll try to find it, it's basically the reasoning behind advertisements saying 'while supplies last' or 'limited time only' or whatever. Scarcity heuristic. If we perceive something is hard to get or will not be available soon....we want it more.
Full stadiums give us the impression that tickets are a difficult thing to get and that we want to watch hockey more than we really do, because it's hard to get tickets to see it and because so many other people are doing it. Herd mentality as well. The perceived scarcity creates more ticket demand and more ticket demand justifies us in watching it on tv. It must be worth watching because so many people want to see it live.
...

Fully aware of that principle through my business. We're very much involved in that whole deal. Maybe I'm just incorrectly segregating the demand for tickets from the demand for TV viewing based on my experiences. I really couldn't care less who is in the arena, in fact my college basketball team has a major optics problem due to a good number of the lower level/high donation donors not showing up for mid week games. I'd never imagined people wouldn't watch a game they previously wanted to due to the crowd.

I really would like to see the study just for my own education if you find it, though.

 

[aqib]

Regardless you have no actual proof beyond the fact Fehr said the NHLPA should not pay for the NHL mistskes, which he is right about. Yet surveys these agents have done say otherwise. You have no proof he that way beyond the coyotes.

This isn't about Atlanta, as they are not my team. The bad organization thing only goes so far. Yes people want no part of bad orgs. But were talking about when orgs are good. And the proof is right here: 23 years without a cup. They're excuses. Canadian teams (besides Toronto and Vancouver) have done poorly in FA since the millennium. You should be mad at the players, you mention guerin and weight, the oilers traded them because they could not afford them. Having said that, everyone on this board except for you (and I can find the threads) admits its either the cold weather, taxes, Language (quebec) or fishbowl media(this most common reason) why.
I don't know. But they aren't the biggest racing again because they didn't expand. Indy had a down period (thanks Tony George) and now they're back. There will be a race in NYC next year too.


Bad Press =/= hurting popularity. I just said it was a bad time for this to happen.


You need to direct this at the players and owners, and less other people who point this out.

He specifically cited the Coyotes moving to a Canadian city as a way to solve some of the NHLs problems. I couldn't find a link because it was 4 years ago.

Your second paragraph you contradict yourself. You point out 23 years without a cup and then point out the Oilers traded Guerin and Weight because they couldn't afford them. Out of the 22 years (21 seasons) without a cup 11 of them took place pre-cap. Back then you had economic issues of which the dollar is was only one which lead to them not being able to sign Guerin or Weight (and a bunch of other guys). If the economic issues weren't there they would have been able to sign both. You point out that some Canadian cities show up on the No Trade lists, but you act like those are the only ones that show up on the lists. American teams show up too. If taxes were the issue than why would Luongo and Boumeester have orchestrated trades away from Florida when they have no state income tax at all. Why would anyone ever sign with the Leafs and Rangers. You only focus on the ones cases which suit your agenda and extrapolate it out to everyone.

The point about NASCAR was simply to point out that not every sport can succeed everywhere regardless of how good of a job you do marketing. Even within racing NASCAR and Formula One have different markets that they succeed in. You can pound your head against the wall all you want (like Bettman does) but at some point we just have to realize that putting hockey teams in certain markets it the equivalent to booking a country music concert at the Apollo (the long it goes the more ridiculous scenarios I am going to have to come up with).

 

[KevFu]

You're new to hockey, tuning in for one of the first times. Are you more likely to continue watching if there are 20,000 screaming fans being shown or if there are 9,500 seemingly quiet fans?

This was something I mentioned frequently in my rants about how the 6x5 realignment with 4 new markets in each of the Southeast and Pacific divisions bear a ton of blame for the slow growth of those eight franchises.

Throw one guy into a group of people who know each other and the noob will take on certain aspects of the group.

If everyone's timid and respectful of each other, the noob will be timid and respectful. If everyone is cracking jokes and making fun of people, the noob will eventually feel comfortable enough to unleash a good zinger.

How do crowds in new markets behave? They mimic what they see on TV.

San Jose fans turned on road gams in 1992 at VAN, EDM, CAL, WIN, LA.
Tampa fans turned on road games in 1993 at CHI, DET, TOR, MIN, STL
Anaheim fans turned on road games in 1994 at CAL, EDM, VAN, LA, SJ
Dallas fans turned on road games in 1995 at DET, CHI, TOR, WIN, STL

When the Coyotes arrived in Glendale, they were in a division with LA, ANA, DAL and SJ
When the Thrashers arrived in Atlanta, they were in a division with TB, FLA, WAS, CAR as role models.



I also want to point out that: the crowd is barely seen in TV broadcasts. And TV broadcasts will set the audio levels on crowd/FX mics to a desired volume. A quieter crowd will get boosted, a louder crowd will get muted. And most the new buildings are big, wide, open and sterile sounding anyway.

Not that the crowd was QUIET in DC, because it was intense and lively, but during the Islanders/Capitals series in the playoffs, you could ACTUALLY HEAR the audio techs sliding the mic levels down when the play was along the boards of the Verizon Center. They had to cranked the crowd/FX levels in Washington because the Verizon Center is a new arena, and the Coliseum has old acoustics, a crowd on top of the action, and it’s freaking ROCKING when the fans get into it.

 

[Melrose Munch]

He specifically cited the Coyotes moving to a Canadian city as a way to solve some of the NHLs problems. I couldn't find a link because it was 4 years ago.

Exactly. And by move he most likely he meant Hamilton, why? Because Hamilton will never be on an NTC like Edmonton and Winnipeg.The question why does the NHLPA say they want teams in Canada and their players actually don't sign there when they get the chance?

Your second paragraph you contradict yourself. You point out 23 years without a cup and then point out the Oilers traded Guerin and Weight because they couldn't afford them. Out of the 22 years (21 seasons) without a cup 11 of them took place pre-cap. Back then you had economic issues of which the dollar is was only one which lead to them not being able to sign Guerin or Weight (and a bunch of other guys). If the economic issues weren't there they would have been able to sign both. You point out that some Canadian cities show up on the No Trade lists, but you act like those are the only ones that show up on the lists. American teams show up too. If taxes were the issue than why would Luongo and Boumeester have orchestrated trades away from Florida when they have no state income tax at all. Why would anyone ever sign with the Leafs and Rangers. You only focus on the ones cases which suit your agenda and extrapolate it out to everyone.

Luongo and Bouwmeester came from bad orgs. And Roberto went back, Jay is in St Louis. Please. The facts are there. Some cities are constants and some cities are situational. Exibit A: Toronto and Edmonton are canadian cities. Toronto gets free agents were good and not when bad. Edmonton struggles to get free agents when good and the same when bad. Both cities are Canadian. You need to address why Toronto doesn't srtuggle and Edmonton does. You need to stop saying its all about Canada as a whole, it's western Canada that has this issue. The Leafs never had problems with FAs until recently and neither would a Hamilton team. Calgary doesn't show up on these lists, but Buffalo does. So it's not just country too. Big markets and warm weather teams show up when the org is the crapper like Florida (Miami), Islanders and Toronto. This is not me, these are surveys dating back 5-10 years now.

The point about NASCAR was simply to point out that not every sport can succeed everywhere regardless of how good of a job you do marketing. Even within racing NASCAR and Formula One have different markets that they succeed in. You can pound your head against the wall all you want (like Bettman does) but at some point we just have to realize that putting hockey teams in certain markets it the equivalent to booking a country music concert at the Apollo (the long it goes the more ridiculous scenarios I am going to have to come up with).

That's fine. NASCAR missed their chance in the early 2000s imo. But Indy was always going to get back on top. They were just going through similar issues to what the NHL is going through right now.

 

[Jeffrey93]

You can't seriously think those comparisons are apt, do you? The NHL is a product. It's not a job and it's not some large-scale socioeconomical issue either. Your livelihood is not at stake here whether you get a team or not. This is part of the problem. Making the issue a lot larger than it really is. At the end of the day, this is an entertainment product. It needs to be kept in perspective.

Is it jealousy?

A market wants something, be it an NHL team, a water park, an iMax theatre, a shopping centre, a new school, whatever. If you think your market is better suited, deserving, worthy, in need of, has demand for, etc.....that isn't jealousy. And it is an apt comparison to losing out on a job to someone less qualified.

I never said livelihood was at stake.....job applicants aren't all dependent on the job they are applying for. Some just want it.

Is feeling better suited for something jealousy? Or are you actually better suited for it and see it as an injustice? Because the two aren't the same.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I also want to point out that: the crowd is barely seen in TV broadcasts. And TV broadcasts will set the audio levels on crowd/FX mics to a desired volume. A quieter crowd will get boosted, a louder crowd will get muted. And most the new buildings are big, wide, open and sterile sounding anyway.

The crowd shots in Chicago and Tampa during the final were plentiful. During any Chicago game when the anthem is on the crowd shots are constant because they're going nuts.

Crowds are barely seen when they suck.

 

[Nordskull]

http://kjzz.org/content/154150/nhl-deputy-commissioner-bill-daly-weighs-arizona-coyotes-legal-battle


6 minutes 45

Bill Daly says "fortunately" and currently NHL does have cities for expansion or relocation of the team.

 

[Melrose Munch]

http://kjzz.org/content/154150/nhl-deputy-commissioner-bill-daly-weighs-arizona-coyotes-legal-battle


6 minutes 45

Bill Daly says "fortunately" and currently NHL does have cities for expansion or relocation of the team.

Ok back on topic.


Does this mean Seattle or Quebec City from Daly.

 

[aqib]

Exactly. And by move he most likely he meant Hamilton, why? Because Hamilton will never be on an NTC like Edmonton and Winnipeg.The question why does the NHLPA say they want teams in Canada and their players actually don't sign there when they get the chance?
Luongo and Bouwmeester came from bad orgs. And Roberto went back, Jay is in St Louis. Please. The facts are there. Some cities are constants and some cities are situational. Exibit A: Toronto and Edmonton are canadian cities. Toronto gets free agents were good and not when bad. Edmonton struggles to get free agents when good and the same when bad. Both cities are Canadian. You need to address why Toronto doesn't srtuggle and Edmonton does. You need to stop saying its all about Canada as a whole, it's western Canada that has this issue. The Leafs never had problems with FAs until recently and neither would a Hamilton team. Calgary doesn't show up on these lists, but Buffalo does. So it's not just country too. Big markets and warm weather teams show up when the org is the crapper like Florida (Miami), Islanders and Toronto. This is not me, these are surveys dating back 5-10 years now.


That's fine. NASCAR missed their chance in the early 2000s imo. But Indy was always going to get back on top. They were just going through similar issues to what the NHL is going through right now.

No Hamilton was already off the table. By the time the lockout happened the Thrashers had already moved and QC had broken ground on their arena so QC was the next city up.

So Luongo and Boumeester left Florida because it was a bad organization but guys leave the Oilers because Edmonton sucks. Ok got it.

My point on NASCAR was not to the debate the merits of their strategy, it was just to point out that not every sport has the potential to go national or international. Weather its NASCAR, Formula One, cricket, or hockey.

 

[WeTheNords]

http://kjzz.org/content/154150/nhl-deputy-commissioner-bill-daly-weighs-arizona-coyotes-legal-battle


6 minutes 45

Bill Daly says "fortunately" and currently NHL does have cities for expansion or relocation of the team.

Interesting, is the NHL finaly tiring of the Coyotes situation?

 

[pondnorth]

Exactly. And by move he most likely he meant Hamilton, why? Because Hamilton will never be on an NTC like Edmonton and Winnipeg.The question why does the NHLPA say they want teams in Canada and their players actually don't sign there when they get the chance?
Luongo and Bouwmeester came from bad orgs. And Roberto went back, Jay is in St Louis. Please. The facts are there. Some cities are constants and some cities are situational. Exibit A: Toronto and Edmonton are canadian cities. Toronto gets free agents were good and not when bad. Edmonton struggles to get free agents when good and the same when bad. Both cities are Canadian. You need to address why Toronto doesn't srtuggle and Edmonton does. You need to stop saying its all about Canada as a whole, it's western Canada that has this issue. The Leafs never had problems with FAs until recently and neither would a Hamilton team. Calgary doesn't show up on these lists, but Buffalo does. So it's not just country too. Big markets and warm weather teams show up when the org is the crapper like Florida (Miami), Islanders and Toronto. This is not me, these are surveys dating back 5-10 years now.


That's fine. NASCAR missed their chance in the early 2000s imo. But Indy was always going to get back on top. They were just going through similar issues to what the NHL is going through right now.

You are right Hamilton will never be on the NTC like Wpg and Edm because they will never be in the NHL.Which ufa of their own or interested in were they unable to sign? Everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an a***ole.

 

[Melrose Munch]

No Hamilton was already off the table. By the time the lockout happened the Thrashers had already moved and QC had broken ground on their arena so QC was the next city up.

So Luongo and Boumeester left Florida because it was a bad organization but guys leave the Oilers because Edmonton sucks. Ok got it.

My point on NASCAR was not to the debate the merits of their strategy, it was just to point out that not every sport has the potential to go national or international. Weather its NASCAR, Formula One, cricket, or hockey.

Guys leave the Oilers because of both, that's the point, it's not one or the other. But agree to disagree.

You are right Hamilton will never be on the NTC like Wpg and Edm because they will never be in the NHL.Which ufa of their own or interested in were they unable to sign? Everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an a***ole.

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports...nhl-cities-are-the-least-desirable-to-play-in


Let the players know. And Toronto was there, but they've been bad 10 years.

Interesting, is the NHL finaly tiring of the Coyotes situation?

That's what I wonder. I think they really need to get to downtown Phoenix or they will be in Quebec or Seattle.

 

[canuckster19]

NASCAR races at Watkins Glen New York . actually nascar is a good comparison to the NHL. Nascar moved races from two north Carolina tracks that were loved by all but very old/ small markets. They built huge tracks in ft. Worth, Chicago, LA, Kansas city to try to broaden the audience and a lot of fans including myself would like a return to the roots of nascar.

Nascar had huge attendance in early 2000's but now most tracks are removing seats to numbers that would work in the small NC tracks that they left in the first place

The reason NASCAR is failing is because they added the stupid playoff system to placate the new fans with ADD and serious psychological issues only watching to see crashes (hello even more restrictive plates) who were a small minority turning off fans like me who gained interest in the sport in the mid 90's when Gordon was dominating but can't stand the crap now.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Is it jealousy?

A market wants something, be it an NHL team, a water park, an iMax theatre, a shopping centre, a new school, whatever. If you think your market is better suited, deserving, worthy, in need of, has demand for, etc.....that isn't jealousy. And it is an apt comparison to losing out on a job to someone less qualified.

I never said livelihood was at stake.....job applicants aren't all dependent on the job they are applying for. Some just want it.

Is feeling better suited for something jealousy? Or are you actually better suited for it and see it as an injustice? Because the two aren't the same.

Yes, it's jealousy because a hockey team is not a job. Whether the person is already well-off or not doesn't actually matter because they still need that job or the one they have to live. It's also not an apt comparison in that light because the market you're discussing doesn't already have one and is looking for a better one. The apt comparison would be a jobless person applying for a job and is bypassed by someone supposedly less-qualified but that doesn't work either because nobody's livelihood is on the line here. It's just a game and it's just a product. You've lost sight on how important this really is. The fact that you call this an injustice really shows that.

At the end of the day, this stuff where people feel slighted because Florida or Arizona has a team and somewhere like Hamilton or Quebec City doesn't isn't an injustice. It's just jealousy. Hockey isn't a requirement for living. It is a luxury.

 

[Nordskull]

Interesting, is the NHL finaly tiring of the Coyotes situation?

I was a bit surprised to hear that clip.

Its different from "we'll help the team, team will stay there etc.."

But doenst mean much more then what is heard.