NHL investigating Coyotes over physical testing of CHL players

Jamieh

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Apr 25, 2012
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If this was so cut and dry, the punishment would have been already given.
I would not assume that Jakey. The case I showed had the player signed in the summer and the fine handed out the following Apr.
 

Jamieh

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Apr 25, 2012
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I think Chayka may have found a loop hole in the NHL rules, now the NHL is kind of scrambling. I'm only assuming like you said.
A loophole is what the Leafs got fined for. The NHL has shown they do not like folks who want to stretch the limits. I have no idea if the Coyotes did anything wrong but it sounds like this isnt going away.
 

XX

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Lebrun is being dramatic for effect, looks like it's working.

The Astros all knowingly cheated in a way that directly impacted the outcome of games and won it all as a result. In no world is eyeballing or measuring teenagers you may not even end up drafting remotely the same thing. Even bringing it up calls into question the validity of everything he is saying. It's that dumb.

The league has to prove that the Coyotes knowingly cheated in a way explicitly prohibited by league language in order for any sort of meaningful consequence to come from this situation.

Outside of that 1 in 20 scenario, it's probably a fine, a warning, and cleared up language.

The benefit-cost ratio of risking the league hammer for data of questionable worth on prospects that is a few months ahead of everyone else simply isn't there, so I don't believe it's reasonable to suggest the Coyotes got caught "red handed" doing anything improper. "Teams are livid" can be a total exaggeration or it can be exactly two teams with an axe to grind, or ones simply looking to trip the Coyotes up with a piece of info they came across. If this was as bad as implied, it wouldn't be a footnote story.

The league is not interested in f***ing a franchise into the dirt that's already struggling and just got a much needed new owner.
 
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Jamieh

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Apr 25, 2012
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It's like you folks choose not to read??? He's not comparing the Coyotes to the Astros, he's saying that because of all the heat from the Astros, Leagues are looking to send a message about cheating.


And I would also say that taking the temperature around pro sports and the ongoing saga with the Houston Astros and the cheating scandal in baseball, the timing couldn’t be worse for the Coyotes if indeed they are found to have done wrong. I think Bettman will come down hard if the league’s investigation finds wrongdoing because it will be important for the league to send a message
 

TheLegend

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It's like you folks choose not to read??? He's not comparing the Coyotes to the Astros, he's saying that because of all the heat from the Astros, Leagues are looking to send a message about cheating.


And I would also say that taking the temperature around pro sports and the ongoing saga with the Houston Astros and the cheating scandal in baseball, the timing couldn’t be worse for the Coyotes if indeed they are found to have done wrong. I think Bettman will come down hard if the league’s investigation finds wrongdoing because it will be important for the league to send a message


He's still using it as an example to mindset, and it's still a bad comparison as XX pointed out.

You have to ask yourself...... what real advantage is there to the Coyotes if they contacted X number of players headed to the upcoming draft that are going to be at the combine anyway? The whole purpose of the rules to begin with was to eliminate teams dragging these kids away from their development programs a multiple number of times to perform the same physical testing and risking potential injury to them in the process. It wasn't about some teams getting some sort of an advantage. They simply wanted to simplify the process for the potential draftees.
 

Jamieh

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Apr 25, 2012
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He's still using it as an example to mindset, and it's still a bad comparison as XX pointed out.

You have to ask yourself...... what real advantage is there to the Coyotes if they contacted X number of players headed to the upcoming draft that are going to be at the combine anyway? The whole purpose of the rules to begin with was to eliminate teams dragging these kids away from their development programs a multiple number of times to perform the same physical testing and risking potential injury to them in the process. It wasn't about some teams getting some sort of an advantage. They simply wanted to simplify the process for the potential draftees.
Its a great example to mindset, every League will want to show the paying audience that they are hard in cheaters. As for the rest, I, like you, have no idea what the Coyotes did or didn't do.
 

BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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It is a bad comparison to use from the standpoint of what type of cheating was done. The Astros had a systemic methodology, whereas I don't know if any true methodology exists on behalf of the Coyotes, other than having a strength and conditioning coach as part of the interview process and asking players to show up in shirts and shorts.

It is a good example, because right now, regardless of whether or is sports or elections, people are heavily involved in the "fairness" of what is being done. Unfortunately, if this had happened 5 years earlier, maybe this would be a little less of a magnitude, but because nowadays, there is more activity related to unscrupulous methodology, it will be scrutinized more heavily.

That's all that us being said, and sadly, I agree that Arizona may come under more fire because of the environment in the world right now.
 

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
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Lebrun is being dramatic for effect, looks like it's working.

The Astros all knowingly cheated in a way that directly impacted the outcome of games and won it all as a result. In no world is eyeballing or measuring teenagers you may not even end up drafting remotely the same thing. Even bringing it up calls into question the validity of everything he is saying. It's that dumb.

The league has to prove that the Coyotes knowingly cheated in a way explicitly prohibited by league language in order for any sort of meaningful consequence to come from this situation.

Outside of that 1 in 20 scenario, it's probably a fine, a warning, and cleared up language.

The benefit-cost ratio of risking the league hammer for data of questionable worth on prospects that is a few months ahead of everyone else simply isn't there, so I don't believe it's reasonable to suggest the Coyotes got caught "red handed" doing anything improper. "Teams are livid" can be a total exaggeration or it can be exactly two teams with an axe to grind, or ones simply looking to trip the Coyotes up with a piece of info they came across. If this was as bad as implied, it wouldn't be a footnote story.

The league is not interested in f***ing a franchise into the dirt that's already struggling and just got a much needed new owner.
That's how I read it as well. Time will tell.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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A loophole is what the Leafs got fined for. The NHL has shown they do not like folks who want to stretch the limits. I have no idea if the Coyotes did anything wrong but it sounds like this isnt going away.
This isn't going away because of the media, and the NHL dragging their feet.
 

The Feckless Puck

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You know why the NHL and their other teams are furious?

It's not the exploitation of the rulebook's gray areas per se. Every team does that to some extent in various areas.

It's because the Coyotes are a team that the NHL forcibly kept in Arizona through bankruptcy and a succession of con artist owner stewards until Meruelo came around. It's because many NHL teams, especially the ones in big, traditional markets, look at the Coyotes as a drain on their own profits and have concluded that a franchise that shouldn't even be here.

So when a team like that has the chutzpah to basically bite the hands that fed them and skirt the rules, everyone's going to want the hammer to fall.
 

PuckLife

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Feb 26, 2015
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With the Coyotes making a whole-sale change of their scouting staff last year this could legit be a rookie mistake by a newbie. Thoughts?
 

MIGs Dog

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I don't buy it. I think Chayka et al. believed it was better to ask forgiveness than permission and got caught. Simple as that.

This is one of my life rules. It usually works out, but I avoid applying it to anything that might be a felony.
 
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Foggy1097

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Jan 14, 2014
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You know why the NHL and their other teams are furious?

It's not the exploitation of the rulebook's gray areas per se. Every team does that to some extent in various areas. It's because the Coyotes are a team that the NHL forcibly kept in Arizona through bankruptcy and a succession of con artist owner stewards until Meruelo came around. It's because many NHL teams, especially the ones in big, traditional markets, look at the Coyotes as a drain on their own profits and have concluded that a franchise that shouldn't even be here.

So when a team like that has the chutzpah to basically bite the hands that fed them and skirt the rules, everyone's going to want the hammer to fall.
Quite a set of assumptions you have there.
 
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Matias Maccete

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Sep 21, 2014
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Do we know for sure that what they're investigating is the request to show up in a t shirt or shorts? That came from Craig Morgan iirc but no one else has been specific about what the actual accusations are right?
 

_Del_

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Jul 4, 2003
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This is one of my life rules. It usually works out, but I avoid applying it to anything that might be a felony.
The corollary "if it's not specifically proscribed, consider it prescribed" gets a lot of things accomplished, but creates some heartburn (generally for others).
I always take the position that if you've given me a task, you've tacitly given me permission to do all the things I need to do to get the task done.
 
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BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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Do we know for sure that what they're investigating is the request to show up in a t shirt or shorts? That came from Craig Morgan iirc but no one else has been specific about what the actual accusations are right?

Yeah, the accusations are not very specific.

Right now, the only information that we have is that a few teams in the CHL have contacted the NHL offices regarding what the Coyotes have done. So far, the only two factors that have been involved are:

- Asking the players to come to interviews in shirts and shorts
- Having a strength and conditioning coach as part of the interviews

My best guess is that few, if any teams have ever had a strength and conditioning coach along for interviews. Probably just a GM or AGM and scouts. So, when other teams see a strength and conditioning coach, these teams probably are not certain where this goes, and are highly sensitive to what may be asked of the players. If a GM asks, "Walk me through the meals that you ate for the past three days...," vs a strength and conditioning coach asking the same question, there may be a thin line regarding what the strength coach may perceive in the answers. A strength and conditioning coach could theoretically look at the calorie and food intake, couple that with the look of the player in shorts, and that translates into being able to tell who has the ability to add good weight and who doesn't, as an example.

Recall that Chayka has been on board with the idea that all people have a say, so it is probably nothing to him to have a strength coach in meetings and have talks all day. For the CHL teams, as well as other GMs and/or teams, it is probably viewed as so outside the box that there must be some illegality to it.

I have this feeling that the outcome will be a more defined rule regarding who is allowed to speak to the athletes. It may be that a strength coach is only allowed in combine and pre-draft interviews from here on out, so that the perception of gaining an unfair advantage is rendered moot.
 
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Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
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You know why the NHL and their other teams are furious?

It's not the exploitation of the rulebook's gray areas per se. Every team does that to some extent in various areas.

It's because the Coyotes are a team that the NHL forcibly kept in Arizona through bankruptcy and a succession of con artist owner stewards until Meruelo came around. It's because many NHL teams, especially the ones in big, traditional markets, look at the Coyotes as a drain on their own profits and have concluded that a franchise that shouldn't even be here.

So when a team like that has the chutzpah to basically bite the hands that fed them and skirt the rules, everyone's going to want the hammer to fall.
I disagree. The NHL wants a franchise here, and the NHL is run by the board of directors, and some of those have a lot of weight and are from traditional markets. Besides, who said the NHL is furious? It's the media. Fake news.
 
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