NHL in 2025 (mod: more Canadian teams, fewer US sunbelt teams)

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htpwn

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Nov 4, 2009
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Buffalo is 78 miles from Hamilton, Toronto is within Hamiltons fifty mile radius. Regardless, Burke brought in Detroit and other teams in the east that Hamilton would, "harm" so again, speculation.

I'm not denying it would be a hurdle, there are many hurdles when discussing Hamilton. But in the end it would be a profitable franchise so in theory there should be a team there.

Actually, it appears to be 56 miles from Buffalo:

Picture1-1.png


Regardless, if one were to draw a circle with a radius of 50 miles around Buffalo and around Hamilton, they would certainly overlap. That could very well be all the NHL is looking for.

1. How many times do i have to tell people on these boards that in order for the panthers to move a multi-bilionaire would have to pay several hundred million ALONE just to break our forty year lease with the bank atlantic center. This figure does not include the sale price of the team by itself.

How did the supposedly 'unbreakable lease' work out for Elaine Scruggs, the city council, and the residents of Glendale, Arizona?

First of all, MLSE would never, and I do mean NEVER EVER permit a 2nd team to set up shop in Downsview, Mississauga, Vaughan, anywhere within the boundaries or radius of the GTA, and I completely agree with their stance. Hamilton on the other hand is just far enough away to be practicable without infringing on & hence devaluing the Maple Leaf brand & or MLSE business operations through the ACC with Concerts & Events etc.

The area from Hamilton to Oshawa is a completely developed, and continuous urban region. Aside from historical divisions, census tracts, and a medium sized bridge, there is nothing separating the Greater Toronto Area (Burlington) from Hamilton. Why would MLSE simply draw what would amount to be an imaginative line to determine where a competing franchise would be located?
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Don't forget, winnipeg's first few days were only open to season ticket holders from the Moose. as soon as it was opened up to the general public, they got the remaining 5,000 (I think) in a few minutes (maybe even one).

Ya, that was brilliant alright. Prolly crashed their servers to boot with 6000 on a waiting list when all was said & done. That of course was for a REAL team, the real deal. Back in 07 you had the scent of a mere promise, with a much larger population base including KW etc, a rabid & very frustrated NHL fan base who for the past 40+ years have been force fed nothing but overcooked meatloaf in the the form of the Toronto Maple Leafs. A beautiful arena with terrific sitelines and ease of access built to NHL code & opened in 85 that sits idle, the very portrait of Dorian Gray as it ages & withers, soon enough to be outdated, rapidly approaching its expiry date unless remediation can be effected. Theres a mountain of money to be made in Hamilton for the league, the Leafs & the Sabers. Just sitting there on the table. Idiocy.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Why would MLSE simply draw what would amount to be an imaginative line to determine where a competing franchise would be located?

Hardly imaginary, the NHL Constitution stipulates "within a 50 mile radius of the cities limits as the crow flies" as being the clubs territorial rights. Exactly how Broadcast Rights would be determined in this case & what kinds of indemnification they too would entail is yet another question mark, going east to the Leafs & SW to Buffalo.

Interesting note on the sprawl that yes indeed, does pretty much extend from Stoney Creek to Oshawa, northerly now almost to Orangeville, across Caledon & Vaughan out through Markham & into Ajax in an almost uninterrupted string of homes & industrial parks etc. Turned yourselves into a right little Monster havent you...
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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Me too.

I've lived in Victoria. It has some major problems as far as getting an NHL franchise...
  • It's only 45 miles straight-line to Vancouver so we're talking a Hamilton-like territorial rights scenario.
  • The metro population is 330,088, approx half of Winnipeg. Victoria can't support a team based on their own population.
  • I've taken the Vancouver-Victoria ferry. It's one thing to catch the ferry from Victoria to Vancouver for BC Lions game in the summer.
    • The ferry trip during the winter can get rather sea-sickening due to winter storms
    • There is no way that you could take the ferry after work/school from Vancouver to Victoria, catch the hockey game, and be back in Vancouver in time to catch sufficient sleep for work/school the following morning.
    • Did I mention that the last ferry departure from Swartz Bay (Victoria end) is 9:00 PM during the winter?
  • Speaking of winter, the Malahat Highway is occasionally closed during the winter. The mountainous scenery is great during the summer, but higher hilly terrain tends to get snow in winter.
  • Where ya gonna stick a 15,000+ arena in Greater Victoria?
  • What exactly will you do with the arena the other 320 dates a year?

You got the population wrong again. And you live in the city? Check the latest data. The Capital Region is pushing 400,000. Where ya going to stick an arena in Victoria? Are you serious? That's an obstacle? A location for an arena? Weak.

The main problem with a team in Victoria, aside from some of the issues you point out, is that it's in Canucks territory, and the idea of putting an NHL team there is not something that has even crossed someone's mind. The same can be said of 2nd teams in Toronto or Montreal. That's really not even been considered (except perhaps for Toronto and only recently).

The point of the study cited above is to challenge the idea that Canada cannot support several additional teams. That does not mean the country will have that many teams by 2025. I have no doubt that several more teams could survive in the country if there was a will to make it happen -- that's all I'm saying. And Victoria would certainly be way down the list of the top potential markets -- I agree with that.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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1. How many times do i have to tell people on these boards that in order for the panthers to move a multi-bilionaire would have to pay several hundred million ALONE just to break our forty year lease with the bank atlantic center. This figure does not include the sale price of the team by itself.

Hmm...where have we heard that before? :dunno:

2. Why cant canada have its own league im sure many sunbelt fans wouldnt mind not having to deal with canadians constantly wanting to move their teams.

Maybe the sunbelt should start its own league, the SHL? :laugh: The NHL was founded in Canada. I think Canadians would insist on keeping Lord Stanley's Cup, which has some historical significance to the country.
 

Hertl Power

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May 7, 2010
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I see one of the major problems of adding 12 teams to canada is just the shear population of the country. As of right now Canada has an estimated population of just 34.6million. In the last 14 years it has gone up by about 5 million. If the population goes up by about that same amount canada's total population would be about 40million. The idea that you can have 19+ teams getting enough support to constantly fill stadiums(or close to fill them) along with generating enough revenue for the league just won't be possible. On top of that a lot of fans have been fans of other teams that aren't in their market and may not want to stop being toronto fans and become Saskatoon fans (just an example).
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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I see one of the major problems of adding 12 teams to canada is just the shear population of the country. As of right now Canada has an estimated population of just 34.6million. In the last 14 years it has gone up by about 5 million. If the population goes up by about that same amount canada's total population would be about 40million. The idea that you can have 19+ teams getting enough support to constantly fill stadiums(or close to fill them) along with generating enough revenue for the league just won't be possible. On top of that a lot of fans have been fans of other teams that aren't in their market and may not want to stop being toronto fans and become Saskatoon fans (just an example).

They are talking about adding up to 5 teams to the current 7 teams for a grand total of 12 teams. At least I hope that's what they meant. :laugh:
 

Thumper17

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Jun 27, 2011
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Heres a map I made of basically every location that could support hockey that I could think of. I currently dont see much else we could do as far as team location goes in North Amaerica. Unless we want to try Mexico/Halifax/Alaska. Which I dont see having enough people or interest in Mexicos case.

NHLMap33.jpg
 

No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
56,098
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Illinois
You don't feel that Toronto could host another team?

That's never been the issue. We're not talking about how many NHL teams that Canada could support. I don't think that there's any question if Toronto/GTA could support a second NHL team, the question is if they could support three. Heck, there could be two Toronto teams, another team in the GTA, and a fourth team in Hamilton, and I honestly think that, for the most part, all four could survive and that Buffalo would be just fine now that they have a veritable non-evil Mr. Burns running the show.

But that doesn't mean it will at all happen. Look at it from the Leafs' and Sabres' POV.... what logical reason would they have to ever support an additional NHL team in their respective backyards? Toronto especially, as they have a practical monopoly on Ontario hockey. There's no way that they'll give that up without a massive fight and, despite how much we all love to mock them, they are still an extraordinarily powerful ownership group and pull a lot of sway in the BoG.

The only way that there will be another team in Toronto/GTA would be if the new team was willing to fork over an unprecedentedly huge compensation payment and fund the construction of a brand new arena. I don't have a link or the exact figure, but if memory serves TSN did a study of which Canadian markets could theoretically get a team (looking at Winnipeg, Quebec City, GTA, and Hamilton), and the startup amount that they estimated for a second Toronto/GTA team was in the ballpark of a billion dollars. In other words, not very likely.

And Hamilton, while likely facing a less steep financial barrier than a Toronto/GTA team, is also unlikely as Toronto and Buffalo would both be united against it for the same reason and would demand an indemnity if it ever progressed. In other words, we're talking about a financial investment that would make the relocation of the Thrashers to Winnipeg look like a pittance by comparison. Same reason why I doubt that Hartford will ever get a team back, as the Rangers and Bruins both view Connecticut as their turf at this point in time. And yes, I know that one of the owners has said that he'd be okay with the Whalers coming back, but look at it from a cynical perspective and understand that it would make no sense for him to piss off fans that he's trying to court by outright dismissing a hypothetical. Let's see how they react if/when a real plan to bring the NHL back to Hartford ever materializes.

For that reason, Quebec City is the only other Canadian city likely to get an NHL team any time soon, if ever. Relatively recent history of the NHL + good enough distance from the nearest NHL market + a wealthy population + a new arena around the corner + an attractive ownership group. No other empty Canadian market has all of that.


Pssst.... the Seals weren't in the L.A. area. :P
 
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MoreOrr

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Jun 20, 2006
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438
Mexico
no offense but it didnt pan out the first two times.

Just gloss over the fact that the fans weren't the basis of the problem but rather an uninterested ownership that put more effort in getting the team out of town than keeping it in Atlanta.
 
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Ruslan Zainullin

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Aug 2, 2011
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Offense accepted. As we've said over and over again. It will given competent ownership.

i think you mean to say offense taken. offense accepted would indicate that i intended it in the first place.

look, you guys can disagree with me on this all you want, but atlanta was playing in front of empty stands for several seasons before the move. we can get into the whole debate about whether the franchise was boosting the attendance or not (i believe they were, atlanta was playing in front of 5,000 fans some nights) but i don't think that serves any purpose here. i appreciate that the thrashers fanbase, while small, was passionate. however, i am firmly of the opinion that NHL hockey is not viable in that market.
 

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
24,420
438
Mexico
Heres a map I made of basically every location that could support hockey that I could think of. I currently dont see much else we could do as far as team location goes in North Amaerica. Unless we want to try Mexico/Halifax/Alaska. Which I dont see having enough people or interest in Mexicos case.

NHLMap33.jpg

People really need to stop using that particular map as a basis...
Montreal on the the border near New Hampshire...
Pittsburgh where Erie, PA is, on the lake...
Anaheim appears to be a suburb of San Diego...
Calgary closer to the Saskatchewan border than the BC border...
Washington is in Baltimore...
:shakehead
Then you added to that by putting...
Houston almost in San Antonio.
The Seals in the Mohave Desert.
And Portland in the Warm Springs Indian Reservation.
:shakehead

Oh, and I forgot to mention that including Las Vegas automatically opens the door to a lot more options which would be better than there...
Tulsa
Hampton Roads
Austin
Milwaukee
Cincinnati
Birmingham
Atlanta (again)
 
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htpwn

Registered User
Nov 4, 2009
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Toronto
Hardly imaginary, the NHL Constitution stipulates "within a 50 mile radius of the cities limits as the crow flies" as being the clubs territorial rights. Exactly how Broadcast Rights would be determined in this case & what kinds of indemnification they too would entail is yet another question mark, going east to the Leafs & SW to Buffalo.

But Hamilton is well within Toronto's territorial rights, so what difference does it make if an arena is placed in say, western Mississauga, or downtown Hamilton?

Picture2-2.png


Interesting note on the sprawl that yes indeed, does pretty much extend from Stoney Creek to Oshawa, northerly now almost to Orangeville, across Caledon & Vaughan out through Markham & into Ajax in an almost uninterrupted string of homes & industrial parks etc. Turned yourselves into a right little Monster havent you...

We try.:laugh:

The province, however, has tried to put the brakes on sprawl. The Greenbelt Legislation says where developers can and can't build, limiting sprawl on what is currently prime farmland.
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
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Regina, Saskatchewan
As of today only somewhere in Southern Ontario and Quebec could support NHL teams.

I'd personally opt for a team in KW since it falls out of TO and Buffalo's territory, but Hamilton works for me as well. If it came down to it I think the Canadian government would step in and allow a second team to open up in southern Ontario. The notion that a Canadian company isn't allowed to open up shop because of a competing company 50 miles away in the States is borderline asinine.

In 2025 we don't know what the NHL could look like. If it remains at 30 teams then the smallest metro would be Winnipeg (or Quebec or KW) at 850,000. That means no other Canadian market will be nearly large enough.

Maybe the NHL will expand to 32 teams. Maybe it'll expand further. But under the current NHL structure only KW, Hamilton or Quebec could support a team.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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And Hamilton, while likely facing a less steep financial barrier than a Toronto/GTA team, is also unlikely as Toronto and Buffalo would both be united against it for the same reason and would demand an indemnity if it ever progressed. In other words, we're talking about a financial investment that would make the relocation of the Thrashers to Winnipeg look like a pittance by comparison.

Pssst.... the Seals weren't in the L.A. area. :P

On the other hand, we havent yet heard a statement on the subject from Buffalo's new owner on the matter, who like any incoming buyer of MLSE might indeed decide "you know what?, we could use the territorial & broadcast indemnification & relo or expansion fee's, the Jacobian concessions & management contracts for Copps to pay down some of this massive debt we've incurred" in acquiring their respective franchises, the ACC, TFC, the Raptors etc. Just sayin. Its not as far fetched or improbable as many might suggest. Hamilton City Council really has to get their act together though, thats been a long standing problem.

And I think the op's map was a generic "California Golden Seals", remembering the White Skates, a practicality if your playing somewhere out in the wilds of the Mojave Desert. :D

But Hamilton is well within Toronto's territorial rights, so what difference does it make if an arena is placed in say, western Mississauga, or downtown Hamilton?

Because the TTC doesnt reach its borders the way it does in Mississauga. Yet.... though Im quite certain you guys arent done. Whats next, Vaughan, King City, Simcoe & Barrie?. Sudburys nickle would come in handy huh?.
 
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No Fun Shogun

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May 1, 2011
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On the other hand, we havent yet heard a statement on the subject from Buffalo's new owner on the matter, who like any incoming buyer of MLSE might indeed decide "you know what?, we could use the territorial & broadcast indemnification & relo or expansion fee's, the concessions & management fee's for Copps to pay down some of this massive debt we've incurred" in acquiring their respective franchises, the ACC, TFC, the Raptors etc. Just sayin. Its not as far fetched or improbable as many might suggest. Hamilton City Council really has to get their act together though, thats been a long standing problem.

I somehow doubt that the short term gain of an indemnity from a Hamilton team would make the long term ramifications from losing most of their Canadian fans at all worthwhile for Buffalo.
 
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Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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I somehow doubt that the short term gain of an indemnity from a Hamilton team would make the long term ramifications from losing most of their Canadian fans would be at all worthwhile for Buffalo.

Well there you go, you and I disagreeing once again. And I love Chicago & the Hawks. Why you do that?. You truly are No Fun Shogun. And neither was Dr. Kildare in the lead role.

Look, Id be willing to bet dollars to donuts (Id like a 6 pack of Stan Mikita's delicious Honey Cruellers please) that Buffalo would in fact benefit from a closer local & real rival than the basically AHL squad they've been facing out of Toronto off & on for the past 41yrs. Hamiltons closer, has more social, economic & cultural affinity to the forever on fire five alarm Buffalo than it ever did with Toronto.

Canadian Sabres fans are pretty much all clustered around the border down in the Niagara region, though sure, no doubt some people are perfectly happy to drive down from say, Oshawa, Mississauga, Guelph or wherever, spend an hour in the border coming & going, catching a game, picking up some cheese at the Piggly Wiggly. Special trip & treat. Irregulars.

But c'mon here, all this talk of a Hamilton being the "death of the Sabres" is just about as hyperbolic & nonsensical as the majority of my posts on any given subject here on hf.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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Hi Dronald,

I apologize. It is just...

My wife is from Hamilton. Her family is from Hamilton. I LOVE the city! I just don't see it supporting an NHL team. I just don't see the city supporting ANYTHING...

Why is it that we have not seen the Grey Cup in over a decade? Why was our attendance at the Brier so bad it scared Curling out of southern Ontario? Did you hear how many people went to the LFL game at Copps?

For what it is worth, I HOPE I am wrong. I hope we get one and support it - along with the Ticats.

1) No one cares about the CFL in southern ontario. I am skeptical of Hamilton but that is the worst reason possbile.
2)Hamilton will have lost of corporate support. That's what it would not only work but it would be expensive. Corporations won't come out for second tier stuff, which is what the AHL and CFL are.
 

Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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But Hamilton is well within Toronto's territorial rights, so what difference does it make if an arena is placed in say, western Mississauga, or downtown Hamilton?

Picture2-2.png




We try.:laugh:

The province, however, has tried to put the brakes on sprawl. The Greenbelt Legislation says where developers can and can't build, limiting sprawl on what is currently prime farmland.
Oak Ridges Moraine.....
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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I somehow doubt that the short term gain of an indemnity from a Hamilton team would make the long term ramifications from losing most of their Canadian fans at all worthwhile for Buffalo.
This is what dronald does not understand. Hamilton will kill Buffalo.
 

Bjorn Le

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May 17, 2010
19,592
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1) No one cares about the CFL in southern ontario. I am skeptical of Hamilton but that is the worst reason possbile.
2)Hamilton will have lost of corporate support. That's what it would not only work but it would be expensive. Corporations won't come out for second tier stuff, which is what the AHL and CFL are.

They do for the CFL in other cities.
 

htpwn

Registered User
Nov 4, 2009
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Because the TTC doesnt reach its borders the way it does in Mississauga. Yet.... though Im quite certain you guys arent done. Whats next, Vaughan, King City, Simcoe & Barrie?. Sudburys nickle would come in handy huh?.

The TTC is in the process of being extended to Vaughan. Regardless though, it doesn't actually enter Mississauga (aside from a few airport routes) and it likely won't as long as Hazel is mayor.

Even if the TTC does expand into Mississauga eventually, it likely will never go past Square One. There's not only not enough density, but the distance starts to become impractical for subways, especially with GO Transit service available.

It seems to me that the only reason Hamilton is mentioned is because it had an NHL arena and Jim Balsillie. There probably is a point where MLSE will claim a team is too close to them, but where that line is drawn, whether it is the city of Toronto, or their territorial boundaries (most likely IMO), is not known.
 
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