NHL first-, second- and third-team all-stars (1968-2023)

[Kyle McMahon]

The issue is that, if we decide to change our view this year to what we believe is more correct, how many other years do we need to change? And on what basis?

Bourque for the 1990 Hart, anyone?

I've brought this up many times before when people have used awards voting as a pillar of their argument in some cases (or more often when they try to do the opposite and show they know better than the voters did at the time).

How often will either be the case? How can we even tell?

I mean I assume that in the O6 the writers were more able to see all the players, for example, but who knows?

You kind of end up having to take the awards as a decent indication of what transpired on the ice even with their obvious warts.

Bourque for 1990 Hart is a matter of opinion though, not a factual inaccuracy. Both he and Messier were eligible for the award. Messier beating him for the Norris Trophy would be the equivalent example here.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The only issue with this logic is that traditionally, writers do vote players in their "listed" position, not their actual position. Kovalchuk didn't play LW in 2011-12, but was 1st Team LW. Zetterberg also rarely played wing the season he was 2nd Team LW. (Of course, neither of those players received enought votes in their actual positions - RW for Kovalchuk, C for Zetterberg - to make those teams).

I agree this is silly, and the league should have taken action years ago when this started happening. But at least they were only named to one AST. It's at least palatable if misleading. Being named to different positions simultaneously is a new level of ridiculousness and the league really should have drawn the line and not let it occur.

I think Duncan Keith is hurt in voting due to his balanced game. A lot of voters just look at point totals, so guys like Subban and Letang beat him out. Then there's some votes for guys who've built reputations as elite shut-down defensemen, like Chara and Weber for example, who also beat him out.

Keith is a 4 out of 5 in both categories, but it seems like players who are 5/5 in one and 2/5 in another will get the nod instead for being the very best at one thing and deficiencies in other aspects of their game will be overlooked.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

...I think Duncan Keith is hurt in voting due to his balanced game. A lot of voters just look at point totals, so guys like Subban and Letang beat him out. Then there's some votes for guys who've built reputations as elite shut-down defensemen, like Chara and Weber for example, who also beat him out.

Keith is a 4 out of 5 in both categories, but it seems like players who are 5/5 in one and 2/5 in another will get the nod instead for being the very best at one thing and deficiencies in other aspects of their game will be overlooked.

In the last 5 years Keith is top 2 in point totals and Letang is not top 10. In the last 3 years Subban is not top 10 in point totals. In the last 4 years Keith has a Norris and 2 SCs. No one else has done all this in the last 5 years.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Beyond the Ovechkin debacle, its pretty bizarre that Kunitz was the first-team all-star.

Does anyone in their right mind think he had a better season than Hall???

Between the Subban Norris, Kunitz over Hall, double Ovechkin, Ovechkin for Hart, Kane for Smythe... This may go down asthe year that voters offcially lost the plot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Beyond the Ovechkin debacle, its pretty bizarre that Kunitz was the first-team all-star.

Does anyone in their right mind think he had a better season than Hall???

Between the Subban Norris, Kunitz over Hall, double Ovechkin, Ovechkin for Hart, Kane for Smythe... This may go down asthe year that voters offcially lost the plot.

Come on, even if you don't agree with them, Ovechkin for Hart and Kane for Conn Smythe easily fit into long-existing voting patterns

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Come on, even if you don't agree with them, Ovechkin for Hart and Kane for Conn Smythe easily fit into long-existing voting patterns

Oh, I agree. I will admit that those are, at least, defensible choices (although I think they're stupid) ... The others, less so.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I know a lot of respected posters threw legitimate attacks on Subban winning the Norris , but I have to admit Subban looked incredibly strong this year.This is coming from a guy who suggested we should trade his ass on this very website (when he had contract problems at the beginning of the season = proof 1: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58408689&postcount=581 proof 2: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58449585&postcount=595 ).I don't particularly like P.K. Subban , but he was a very consistant and powerful player this year.There is no way in my mind that P.K. Subban isn't a better defenseman than say Kristopher Letang.And I think Subban will also be better for the rest of their careers.

 

[yave1964]

Great read thank you

 

[GuineaPig]

In the last 5 years Keith is top 2 in point totals and Letang is not top 10. In the last 3 years Subban is not top 10 in point totals. In the last 4 years Keith has a Norris and 2 SCs. No one else has done all this in the last 5 years.

Awards are voted on for individual seasons. What a player does over five years is less important than having a few stand-out seasons.

 

[Plural]

In the last 5 years Keith is top 2 in point totals and Letang is not top 10. In the last 3 years Subban is not top 10 in point totals. In the last 4 years Keith has a Norris and 2 SCs. No one else has done all this in the last 5 years.

I don't get it. This is second post from you about Keith. Not trying to jump your throat or anything, I just don't follow what you are trying to say here. Can you elaborate?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

In the last 5 years Keith is top 2 in point totals and Letang is not top 10. In the last 3 years Subban is not top 10 in point totals. In the last 4 years Keith has a Norris and 2 SCs. No one else has done all this in the last 5 years.

Except 2009-10 is the only year Keith even cracked the top 10 in defenseman points. He's consistently ranked in the 15th-20th range in all other seasons since 2009. He's very good offensively but not good enough that he's going to get Norris votes from the guys (and sadly I'm sure there are more than a few) who simply go to NHL.com, look at the top 5 defenseman scorers, and copy and paste those names onto their ballot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL all-star data (1931-1967): centres

I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every year but 1941, 1952, 1953, and 1958. 1951 had two 2nd Team ASs due to a tie, so no need to award a 3rd Team. See notes for details.

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Jean Beliveau | 6 | 3 | 0 | 9
Stan Mikita | 5 | 1 | 0 | 6
Bill Cowley | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6
Syl Apps | 2 | 3 | 1 | 6
Milt Schmdit | 3 | 1 | 2 | 6
Henri Richard | 1 | 3 | 2 | 6
Ted Kennedy | 0 | 3 | 3 | 6
Elmer Lach | 3 | 2 | 0 | 5
Norm Ullman | 1 | 1 | 3 | 5
Frank Boucher* | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Hooley Smith* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Max Bentley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Howie Morenz* | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3
Sid Abel | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3
Neil Colville | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3
Dave Keon | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Marty Barry | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Ken Mosdell | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Joe Primeau* | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Tod Sloan | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Fleming MacKell | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Bill Thoms | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Cooney Weiland* | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Art Chapman | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Phil Watson | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Buddy O'Connor | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Doug Bentley | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Alex Delvecchio | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Ed Litzenberger | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Bronco Horvath | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Ebbie Goodfellow* | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Syd Howe | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Don Grosso | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Clint Smith | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Paul Ronty | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Edgar Laprade | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Dave Creighton | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Don McKenney | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Red Kelly | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Phil Goyette | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1

Notes:

• *Frank Boucher and Howie Morenz had multiple seasons of All-Star calibre play before the official teams. Cooney Weiland, Hooley Smith, Joe Primeau, and Ebbie Goodfellow may have, as well.
• I have no 3rd Team All Star for 1941, because nobody except Bill Cowley and Syl Apps got more than 1 vote.
• I'm giving Ted Kennedy the 3rd Team AS C in 1945. He had 2 2nd place votes for 6 points, while Syd Howe had 1 first place vote for 7 points. My decision of whether to throw out Syd Howe's single vote (since I generally require at least 2 votes to count a ranking) was made easy when Howe was named 2nd Team LW that same year.
• Ted Kennedy and Sid Abel tied for 2nd Team AS C in 1951 and are both listed in the official NHL records. I listed them both as 2nd Team ASs and awarded no 3rd Team that year.
• We don't have records for 1952, 1953, 1958, so I could award no 3rd Team ASs in those years.
• The player who stands out the most to me (and not in a good way)? Alex Delvecchio.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

[*]The player who stands out the most to me (and not in a good way)? Alex Delvecchio.

i've always thought of him as the ron francis of his time and this fits right with that impression. not a terrible thing to be, i might add.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL all-star data (1931-1967): left wing

I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every season but 1952, 1955, and 1959. Two 3rd Team All Stars were awarded in 1932 due to a tie. See notes below for details.

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Ted Lindsay | 8 | 1 | 1 | 10
Bobby Hull | 6 | 1 | 1 | 8
Toe Blake | 3 | 2 | 2 | 7
Frank Mahovlich | 2 | 4 | 0 | 6
Busher Jackson | 4 | 1 | 0 | 5
Aurel Joliat* | 1 | 3 | 1 | 5
Sid Smith | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Woody Dumart | 0 | 3 | 2 | 5
Doug Bentley | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Sweeney Schriner | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4
Dickie Moore | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4
Paul Thompson | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Bert Olmstead | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3
Bun Cook* | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Dean Prentice | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Lynn Patrick | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Gaye Stewart | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Roy Conacher | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Johnny Gottselig | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Syd Howe | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Herb Cain | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Camille Henry | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
John Bucyk | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2
Doug Mohns | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2
Baldy Northcott | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Sid Abel | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Tony Leswick | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Ed Sandford | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Danny Lewicki | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Real Chevrefils | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Alex Delvecchio | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Don Marshall | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Nels Stewart* | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Hec Kilrea* | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Herbie Lewis | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Georges Mantha | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Carl Liscombe | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Harry Watson | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Jimmy McFadden | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Fleming MacKell | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1

Notes

• *Aurel Joliat had numerous AS-calibre seasons before 1931. So did Nels Stewart, but most of his were at C. Bun Cook and Hec Kilrea may have also had AS-calibre seasons before 1931.
• I have Hec Kilrea (3 1st; 3 2nd Team votes) and Bun Cook (2 1st, 5 2nd Team votes) as tied for 3rd Team AS in 1932.
• We don't have records for 1952, 1955, and 1959, so I could not award AS teams for those years.
• 1939 was an interesting case. Alex Shibicky (not listed) finished 3rd in AS voting for RW. But he also tied Woody Dumart for 3rd in AS voting by a LW. I gave Shibicky the RW spot, so Dumart gets the LW spot.

 

[Killion]

The player who stands out the most to me (and not in a good way)? Alex Delvecchio.

Ya, might be a little surprising considering who he played with and length of career (24yrs). He came up through Junior & the Red Wings during the era when it was defence first and not as a Centre but as a Left Winger. He stuck to that premise & philosophy throughout his career, playing a defensive role on an offensive line feeling that first & foremost he was there to be defensively responsible first & secondly to feed his wingers as a playmaker & not as a goal scorer. It wasnt until later in his career, mid 60's & then again in I think 69 that he put up some impressive numbers. Went about his "job" very quietly & in gentlemanly fashion. Not at all gaudy, wouldnt really impress unless you watched him carefully & appreciated a defensive Centre, and rare of course those sorts do get nominated to All Star berths particularly during an era when there were plenty of them skating in the NHL.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL all-star data (1931-1967): right wing

I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every season but 1951, 1952, 1953, and 1955. 1955 was probably Gordie Howe though (see notes below).

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Gordie Howe | 9 | 9 | 1 | 19
Maurice Richard | 7 | 7 | 1 | 15
Andy Bathgate | 2 | 2 | 4 | 8
Charlie Conacher** | 3 | 2 | 1 | 6
Bernie Geoffrion | 1 | 2 | 3 | 6
Bill Cook* | 3 | 1 | 1 | 5
Gordie Drillon | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Bill Monsienko | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5
Bryan Hextall | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Larry Aurie | 1 | 0 | 3 | 4
Bobby Bauer | 0 | 4 | 0 | 4
Lorne Carr | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3
Cecil Dillon | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3
Dit Clapper** | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3
Ken Wharram | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2
Claude Provost | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Rod Gilbert | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2
Bud Poile | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Bob Rousseau | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Jimmy Ward** | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Johnny Gagnon | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Charlie Sands | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Alex Shibicky | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Eddie Wiseman | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Joe Benoit | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Don Gallinger | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Johnny Peirson | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Jerry Toppazzini | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Bob Nevin | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1

Notes

• *Bill Cook was 34 years old in 1931 and still managed to amass 5 All-Star nods from that age on. Pretty incredible.
• **Dit Clapper likely had an AS-calibre year in 1930. Charlie Conacher and Jimmy Ward played some hockey before 1931 too.
• By my system for figuring out rankings in the 1930s (2 points for a 1st Team; 1 point for a 2nd Team), Hooley Smith would have beaten Dit Clapper out 4 points to 3 for the 3rd Team in 1932. But Smith was an official 2nd Team All Star at Center, so I gave the 3rd Team to Clapper.
• There are discrepancies in the 1935 data, but it appears that Bill Cook and Larry Aurie tied for 3rd Team All Star that season.
• If our data is correct, in 1943, 1st Teamer Lorne Carr had 8 1st place votes and 10 2nd place votes and 2nd Teamer Bryan Hextall had 6 1st place and 7 2nd place votes. Joe Benoit had 9 1st place and 4 2nd place votes. No idea how Bryan Hextall finished ahead of Benoit on the official teams, but I gave Benoit the 3rd Team.
• Gordie Howe was a 1st or 2nd Team AS every season from 1949-1970, except for 1955 when he lost out to Maurice Richard and Bernie Geoffrion! He was also a 3rd Teamer in 1948 and was probably a 3rd Teamer in 1955.
• Maurice Richard was a 1st or 2nd Team AS every season from 1944-1957 and was a 3rd Team All Star in 1958!
• People talk about how impossible it was to win an All-Star nod at center in the time of Gretzky and Lemieux. Howe and Richard literally owned the RW AS spot every year from 1949-1957, except for 1955 when Howe had an "off" year, finishing 5th in points and Geoffrion won the Art Ross.
• Unfortunately, we don't have data for 3rd Team All Stars in 1951, 1952, or 1953, so we don't know who finished behind the Howe/Richard duo those years. In 1951, no other RW finished close to them, so it's impossible to tell who it probably would have been. In 1952, it was almost certainly Bernie Geoffrion (6th in scoring) or Bill Monsienko (7th in scoring). In 1953, it was almost certainly Wally Hergesheimer (4th in scoring in by far the best season of his career).
• We also don't have data for 3rd Team All Star in 1955, but it was almost certainly Howe, who finished 5th in overall league scoring. I did not, however, give Howe the official 3rd Team in the table above.

 

[Sentinel]

I think Ovechkin is clearly on pace to become the second best LW in hockey history, but he can't fall off the face of the earth again.

Shall we wait until he wins something first?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Shall we wait until he wins something first?

I think Ovechkin has won plenty.

The only thing stopping Ovechkin from passing Ted Lindsay in the very near future is the same thing that stopped Mark Messier; he switched position.

 

[BM67]

[*]If our data is correct, in 1943, 1st Teamer Lorne Carr had 8 1st place votes and 10 2nd place votes and 2nd Teamer Bryan Hextall had 6 1st place and 7 2nd place votes. Joe Benoit had 9 1st place and 4 2nd place votes. No idea how Bryan Hextall finished ahead of Benoit on the official teams, but I gave Benoit the 3rd Team.

Weighted voting giving each city equal points.

Joe Benoit received the most 1st place votes for RW, but missed the 2nd team by two-thirds of a point due to weighting of the vote. He received 103 and a third points while Bryan Hextall received 104.

Benoit got most of his votes from voters in Boston and Montreal, which had half the votes (13/26), but only a third of the points. He was shutout in Detroit and Toronto, so he missed out on a third of the points there. He did get 2 first place votes from the 4 missing voters as well.

Votes per city in 1943 (26 of 30 voters found)

Boston 6 - Hextall 4-0; Benoit 2-1; Carr 0-4; M. Bentley 0-1
Chicago 4 - Carr 3-0; Benoit 1-1; Hamill 0-2; Hextall 0-1
Detroit 2 - Carr 2-0; Boll 0-2
Montreal 7 - Benoit 6-1; Carr 1-3; Hextall 0-2; Hill 0-1
New York 5 - Hextall 2-2; Carr 1-2; Schriner 1-0; D. Bentley 1-0; Benoit 0-1
Toronto 2 - Carr 1-1; Hextall 1-1

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Weighted voting giving each city equal points.

Joe Benoit received the most 1st place votes for RW, but missed the 2nd team by two-thirds of a point due to weighting of the vote. He received 103 and a third points while Bryan Hextall received 104.

Benoit got most of his votes from voters in Boston and Montreal, which had half the votes (13/26), but only a third of the points. He was shutout in Detroit and Toronto, so he missed out on a third of the points there. He did get 2 first place votes from the 4 missing voters as well.

Votes per city in 1943 (26 of 30 voters found)

Boston 6 - Hextall 4-0; Benoit 2-1; Carr 0-4; M. Bentley 0-1
Chicago 4 - Carr 3-0; Benoit 1-1; Hamill 0-2; Hextall 0-1
Detroit 2 - Carr 2-0; Boll 0-2
Montreal 7 - Benoit 6-1; Carr 1-3; Hextall 0-2; Hill 0-1
New York 5 - Hextall 2-2; Carr 1-2; Schriner 1-0; D. Bentley 1-0; Benoit 0-1
Toronto 2 - Carr 1-1; Hextall 1-1

Thanks. I knew they weighed votes once they switched back to writers in the late 40s after briefly having the coaches vote. I didn't know they weighed votes in the early 40s. Do you know what years they used weighted votes?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Shall we wait until he wins something first?

Ah Cup counting. You tell me, what makes Bobby Hull's 1 Cup in a 6 team league so much more impressive than Ovechkin's playoff record?

Is it a binary thing? Once you win the Cup (any number of them), you can check that off your resume and be considered great? Because otherwise we might need to start talking about Lindsay's 4-1 advantage in Cups over Bobby Hull.

 

[Plural]

Shall we wait until he wins something first?

Like Hart, Art, Rocket, Lindsay or All-Star hardware?

I know you imply Cup and playoffs, but the guy has been individually so strong that if he retires now he will take the crown from Dionne by being the best player ever without a cup. (If Dionne in fact is the best player ever without the cup)

 

[Sentinel]

That's exactly it. Ovechkin is closer to Dionne than to Hull. He is very average in playoffs, and that IMHO trumps his Harts and Art Rosses. I have seen him play exactly one great series and one great Olympic game. Even in his two WC victories he was far from being the deciding factor.

He doesn't need to win three or four. But without at least one, he is not "best" in anything.

 

[quoipourquoi]

That's exactly it. Ovechkin is closer to Dionne than to Hull. He is very average in playoffs, and that IMHO trumps his Harts and Art Rosses. I have seen him play exactly one great series and one great Olympic game. Even in his two WC victories he was far from being the deciding factor.

He doesn't need to win three or four. But without at least one, he is not "best" in anything.

I agree with you that it's a thing that I wish to see from him, but I thought he was quite good in the playoffs during the Boudreau era.

 

[BM67]

Thanks. I knew they weighed votes once they switched back to writers in the late 40s after briefly having the coaches vote. I didn't know they weighed votes in the early 40s. Do you know what years they used weighted votes?

The first year that weighted voting is mentioned was 1941-42. Not sure when they dropped it, possibly after expansion when they had the coaches voting in 1967-68.