NHL buyout offer gets second wind

[kdb209]

And to the poster who said that Bain Capital would never fund a new league, etc., etc. unless you are from Bain Capital, you can't say for sure. It's interesting they were founded by Mitt Romney though, I never knew that.

Well if you don't beleive me, beleive Bain - they made it quite clear that they were interested in the NHL as a potentially undervalued asset and when explicitly asked they said they were not interested in a rival league.

I suppose they could have lied and and really be the super secret investor behind the WHA, but extarordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I challenged the poster who claimed Bain was linked to the WHA to come up with any shred of evidence in that regard. The silence was deafening. I rest my case.

Take a look at Bain and the types of deals they do - they are an LBO investment house. Is there anything in their track record that would give any indication that a risky investment with a little potential upside would be something they would be interested in.

My offer still holds - show me any evidence that Bain backs the WHA and I'll eat my shorts.

My theory of little green men with an intergalactic TV deal - well unless your from Regulus 7 you can't say for sure it isn't true, ... . That's just as valid as your implied claim of the BHL (Bain Hockey League).

 

[Mort]

It is all about branding, marketing, history and location. The biggest asset the NHL still retains are the team names/logos/jerseys/locations, and of course THE STANLEY CUP. A new WHA will have all new names and logos and will struggle in locations where NHL team loyalty is strong. If you recall the old WHA succeeded in markets that were underserved by the NHL, and failed almost immediately in markets with a strong NHL presence. Most of all, kids do not dream of growing up to hoist the Avco Cup!

 

[Mess]

[url]http://www.640toronto.com/[/url] - Today

Is reporting that Bain main change their attention from the Owners to the Players if the NHL has no interest in the buyout..

That likely means WHA I would guess .. unless its setting up its own league ..

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

[url]http://www.640toronto.com/[/url] - Today

Is reporting that Bain main change their attention from the Owners to the Players if the NHL has no interest in the buyout..

That likely means WHA I would guess .. unless its setting up its own league ..

Good for Bain. I guess Bain just has to build 30 arenas in 30 cities that have populations large enough to support the players need for $1.3 billion in salaries. Good luck to Bain and their plan to spend several billion dollars on a very risky gamble. Oh, and since this likely has to be approved by the PA, how are the players going to feel about working for one enterprise that has admitted they will place controls on their employees earning potential? Ooooh, I bet you forgot about that little tidbit.

 

[Optimist*]

Good for Bain. I guess Bain just has to build 30 arenas in 30 cities that have populations large enough to support the players need for $1.3 billion in salaries. Good luck to Bain and their plan to spend several billion dollars on a very risky gamble. Oh, and since this likely has to be approved by the PA, how are the players going to feel about working for one enterprise that has admitted they will place controls on their employees earning potential? Ooooh, I bet you forgot about that little tidbit.

The funny part is that if Bain did do this they would be splitting whatever money went to hockey. Therefore any one team, now there would be 60, would be able to pay their players less.

 

[Mess]

Good for Bain. I guess Bain just has to build 30 arenas in 30 cities that have populations large enough to support the players need for $1.3 billion in salaries. Good luck to Bain and their plan to spend several billion dollars on a very risky gamble. Oh, and since this likely has to be approved by the PA, how are the players going to feel about working for one enterprise that has admitted they will place controls on their employees earning potential? Ooooh, I bet you forgot about that little tidbit.

I didn't forget about anything .. I am reporting what they are talking about on the radio ..

Also in case you forgot .. Winnipeg, Vancouver, Hamilton, Toronto, Quebec City already have Arena's that can be used that are different from the ones the NHL teams use .. and in some other cases the NHL team does not own the buildings as well so they could set up leases to rent the Arena's just like the NHL can .. and did anyone every say BAIN would be silly enough to go wtih 30 teams, and follow the same mistakes the NHL has .. In fact in the early buyout report Bain said it would buy the NHL and close 10 teams immediately ...

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

I didn't forget about anything .. I am reporting what they are talking about on the radio ..

Also in case you forgot .. Winnipeg, Vancouver, Hamilton, Toronto, Quebec City already have Arena's that can be used that are different from the ones the NHL teams use .. and in some other cases the NHL team does not own the buildings as well so they could set up leases to rent the Arena's just like the NHL can .. and did anyone every say BAIN would be silly enough to go wtih 30 teams, and follow the same mistakes the NHL has .. In fact in the early buyout report Bain said it would buy the NHL and close 10 teams immediately ...

Ah, so Bain is going to go with 10 teams. So a big juicy F.U. to the majority of the PA just to so the top 8%, and their bestest of buddies, can run off and make more money? Yeah, that's going to fly. I'm sure the rest of the NHLPA minions will just stand on the sidelines and cheer on their brothers in arms. There's that common sense argument again.

Can't wait to see a team in Winnipeg! They were so enamoured with the Ryan Smyth and Friends tour I can't imagine how excited they will be to see even more over paid primadonnas playing pond hockey.

 

[PecaFan]

I didn't forget about anything ..

Also in case you forgot .. Winnipeg, Vancouver, Hamilton, Toronto, Quebec City already have Arena's that can be used that are different from the ones the NHL teams use ..

Actually, you keep forgetting that Vancouver *doesn't* have an arena, even though it's been pointed out a million times. The Giants have *exclusive* rights to the Pacific Coliseum. They have prevented *lacrosse* teams from using the arena, fearing the competition would cost them sales. They sure as hell aren't going to allow another hockey team to play there.

And while McCaw has no problem with one offs, he sure as hell isn't going to allow an alternative league to take a foothold in his arena.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Ah, so Bain is going to go with 10 teams. So a big juicy F.U. to the majority of the PA just to so the top 8%, and their bestest of buddies, can run off and make more money? Yeah, that's going to fly. I'm sure the rest of the NHLPA minions will just stand on the sidelines and cheer on their brothers in arms. There's that common sense argument again.

Can't wait to see a team in Winnipeg! They were so enamoured with the Ryan Smyth and Friends tour I can't imagine how excited they will be to see even more over paid primadonnas playing pond hockey.

I doubt the Bain group, or any other group willing to spend that much money, could give a flying fig about the NHLPA, union solidarity or the ruining of the budding friendships between the stars and the 4th line plumbers. Were they to do this, I am sure all they would be concerned with is getting the best 200 players they can.

If they do get the top 200 players from the NHL, then I'm sure they could care less if the remaining 500 decide to return to the NHL and its lower salaries, just to stick it to the top 8%. Bain would be going after the fans, not the 4th line scrubs.

 

[triggrman]

Pete Weber had the guys leading this on the radio. The said they needed all hockey markets for this to work. No team would be folded and no team relocated, he used Nashville as an example and said that if we bought Nashville from Craig Leipold, we buy the existing contract he has with the city of Nashville too. If we void that contract, we are liable for the penalties of voiding the contract. So he would have to pay not only the 3.5B to buy the league, he would also have to pay fines or fees for every team he folded or moved as the contracts call. In Nashville he would have to pay the Nashville Sports Council $30M to move or fold the team.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Pete Weber had the guys leading this on the radio. The said they needed all hockey markets for this to work. No team would be folded and no team relocated, he used Nashville as an example and said that if we bought Nashville from Craig Leipold, we buy the existing contract he has with the city of Nashville too. If we void that contract, we are liable for the penalties of voiding the contract. So he would have to pay not only the 3.5B to buy the league, he would also have to pay fines or fees for every team he folded or moved as the contracts call. In Nashville he would have to pay the Nashville Sports Council $30M to move or fold the team.

Considering the losses some of these teams are claiming, year after year, a one-time $30 million payout may be well worth it. Cut bait, and get the hell out of Dodge...

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

I doubt the Bain group, or any other group willing to spend that much money, could give a flying fig about the NHLPA, union solidarity or the ruining of the budding friendships between the stars and the 4th line plumbers. Were they to do this, I am sure all they would be concerned with is getting the best 200 players they can.

If they do get the top 200 players from the NHL, then I'm sure they could care less if the remaining 500 decide to return to the NHL and its lower salaries, just to stick it to the top 8%. Bain would be going after the fans, not the 4th line scrubs.

You kind of missed the point. Union solidarity (an oxymoron when talking about the NHLPA) has been the rallying cry and the expectation of the pro-PS set. But now they expect the top 200 to be scooped up by a rival league and have the NHL sit back and remain out of business? Sorry, the minute Bain tips its hand and contracts the first player all hell is going to break loose. The players will stream across the lines and get their old jobs back while they are still there. No one is going to wait to see how the dust settles and who is where. It becomes every man for himself. Bain will only be a catalyst to the NHL getting everything they want and the players getting screwed all around.

 

[JohnnyReb]

You kind of missed the point. Union solidarity (an oxymoron when talking about the NHLPA) has been the rallying cry and the expectation of the pro-PS set. But now they expect the top 200 to be scooped up by a rival league and have the NHL sit back and remain out of business? Sorry, the minute Bain tips its hand and contracts the first player all hell is going to break loose. The players will stream across the lines and get their old jobs back while they are still there. No one is going to wait to see how the dust settles and who is where. It becomes every man for himself. Bain will only be a catalyst to the NHL getting everything they want and the players getting screwed all around.

I don't think the NHL would remain out of business at all. The question is, who will they have? If Bain opens the vault and pays more than the NHL does, then Bain will have the better players. The NHL may still exist, but it won't be the top league going anymore.

How would that be the "NHL getting every they want" and the players getting screwed?

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

I don't think the NHL would remain out of business at all. The question is, who will they have? If Bain opens the vault and pays more than the NHL does, then Bain will have the better players. The NHL may still exist, but it won't be the top league going anymore.

How would that be the "NHL getting every they want" and the players getting screwed?

The majority of the fans won't follow the players. The fans were brought up being fans of "team X" or "team Y". Even when the fan favorite is traded away the fans stick with the team, not the player. Bain may be able to sign the top 200 players in the world (for the time being), but that does not mean they will have the best product. The NHL will still have all the trappings that people associate with the best league in the world. The teams in the NHL will still battle it out for the Stanley Cup and not some meaningless trophy that Bain puts together. The NHL has history and fan loyalty on its side. Bain will have the top 200 players (I don't think Bain will get more than half of that number as many will opt to stay with the NHL and some form of stability as well as history) but will have to battle through the animosity the fans hold against those players and the lack or proven commodity Bain's league will have to offer.

If Bain comes on the scene and forces the issue they act as a divisive element, one that will once and for all break the ranks of the NHLPA. The NHL will no longer have a body to negotiate with and will be able to put in place what ever system they want, just like Bain's league. The players get screwed because they won't get the opportunity to bargain for any deal. They will have one rammed down their throats in both leagues.

Frankly I hope Bain does push to start a 10 team league featuring the best players they can attract. I say it will last two, maybe three seasons before biting the dust for good. The players who end up in that league will likely not be the "best" but the ones that proved to be the true "PA members" who followed through on their word of never playing another game in the NHL. The young players coming up will still aspire to be in the NHL and playing for immortality by having their name engraved on the Stanley Cup. Money will be available in both leagues, but only one has the Stanley Cup and only one will give you a shot at having your name etched on the most important trophy in all of sport. Bain will have its 10 team league in second class facilities for a third rate prize. I know who I would guess will be viable in three years and where all the new talent will be heading. BHL lasts only as long as the players they manage to sign out of the gate feel there is a reason to be there. IMO that won't take more than a couple of years.

 

[Mess]

Ah, so Bain is going to go with 10 teams. So a big juicy F.U. to the majority of the PA just to so the top 8%, and their bestest of buddies, can run off and make more money? Yeah, that's going to fly. I'm sure the rest of the NHLPA minions will just stand on the sidelines and cheer on their brothers in arms. There's that common sense argument again.

Can't wait to see a team in Winnipeg! They were so enamoured with the Ryan Smyth and Friends tour I can't imagine how excited they will be to see even more over paid primadonnas playing pond hockey.

Well to start off Red Deer is in Alberta and Winnipeg is in the Province of Manitoba ..Are you concerned about accuracy of your statements at all? If fact there is even a Province in between the two ... and a charity game is not the same, but Hamilton's charity game drew in excess of 20,000 for an outdoor game in the poor weather on the weekend .. A league would be a different animal and a Few Crosby's and company and suddenly lots of interest ..

The Bain group said it would close 10 of the 30 NHL teams .. Not sure how you came up with just 10 teams unless you are talking about WHA actual team mentioned to date .. Also the Bain biggest complaint with the NHL is too fast expansion and too watered down a product ... So logic would say that the bottom 1/3 or the PA are more then welcome to return to the NHL along with replacements ..

 

[JohnnyReb]

The majority of the fans won't follow the players. The fans were brought up being fans of "team X" or "team Y". Even when the fan favorite is traded away the fans stick with the team, not the player. Bain may be able to sign the top 200 players in the world (for the time being), but that does not mean they will have the best product. The NHL will still have all the trappings that people associate with the best league in the world. The teams in the NHL will still battle it out for the Stanley Cup and not some meaningless trophy that Bain puts together. The NHL has history and fan loyalty on its side. Bain will have the top 200 players (I don't think Bain will get more than half of that number as many will opt to stay with the NHL and some form of stability as well as history) but will have to battle through the animosity the fans hold against those players and the lack or proven commodity Bain's league will have to offer.

So if I understand you correctly, fans in cities that currently don't have NHL teams would ignore the local team, to follow a league that has no connection to their city? If Quebec got a team, and signed Lecavalier, Theodore and St. Louis, fans in that city would ignore them, to continue following Nashville, Columbus, and Anaheim?

The NHL has always been a regional sport. There is no loyalty to the NHL in cities that don't have teams, and not much loyalty to NHL teams in many cities that do have teams. See the currently declining attendance records.

If Bain comes on the scene and forces the issue they act as a divisive element, one that will once and for all break the ranks of the NHLPA. The NHL will no longer have a body to negotiate with and will be able to put in place what ever system they want, just like Bain's league. The players get screwed because they won't get the opportunity to bargain for any deal. They will have one rammed down their throats in both leagues.

As I said above, I don't think Bain could care less about the NHLPA. As for the players, they'll go to the highest bidder. Whenever there has been a start-up league, be it the WHA, the USFL, or IRL, they have always tried to lure away top players. While this has ultimately led to their own demise (except IRL), it only came about because ultimately the startup leagues couldn't afford the salary explosion and bidding wars that resulted in open competition for star players. Either way, the players benefit.

Frankly I hope Bain does push to start a 10 team league featuring the best players they can attract. I say it will last two, maybe three seasons before biting the dust for good. The players who end up in that league will likely not be the "best" but the ones that proved to be the true "PA members" who followed through on their word of never playing another game in the NHL. The young players coming up will still aspire to be in the NHL and playing for immortality by having their name engraved on the Stanley Cup.

That's the kind of arrogance that led the NHL to disregard the first incarnation of the WHA, to their own chagrin in the end.

Players, like people everywhere, will go where the money is. If you are Sydney Crosby, do you settle for a 4 year, $875,000 offer from Pittsburgh, who will need a good 5-10 years before they compete for a Cup, or do you take a 3 year, $5 million offer from a start-up league? NHL offer - 22 years old, $3.5 million. Counter offer, 21 years old, $15 million. And still lots of time to win that Stanley Cup.

Plus you are over-estimating the lure of the Cup to European players. They'll go where the money is.

Money will be available in both leagues, but only one has the Stanley Cup and only one will give you a shot at having your name etched on the most important trophy in all of sport. Bain will have its 10 team league in second class facilities for a third rate prize. I know who I would guess will be viable in three years and where all the new talent will be heading. BHL lasts only as long as the players they manage to sign out of the gate feel there is a reason to be there. IMO that won't take more than a couple of years.

As long as the money is more, then that's where they will go. If a die-hard hockey fanatic like Bobby Hull would jump leagues, why wouldn't some Russian kid with only a vague understanding of the NHL, its history and traditions?

 

[thinkwild]

The 10 team Super League of Elite does seem to be the script followed recently in Rugby. Borne of frustration with overexpansion, the new league was apaprently short lived, the old league contracted, and they now live happily ever after. Perhaps this is the way the change has to happen.

One day, I have to figure, the natural evolution is to have a super league of elite with teams from North America and Europe. It seems inevitable. It may take a few goes before its pulled off though.

HFBoards would seem to be a natural place for prospect monitoring for the best prospects into the best new league. A new SuperLeague team sighns Crosby, Phaneuf, Kovalchuk, Carter and Richards? I'd wanna watch them. Even if they werent my team. Players you know can do that.

 

[Weary]

The NHL will still have all the trappings that people associate with the best league in the world. The teams in the NHL will still battle it out for the Stanley Cup and not some meaningless trophy that Bain puts together.

And what happens if the Stanley Cup goes elsewhere because a judge decides Messrs. Morrison and O'Neill have failed in their duties as trustees?

 

[triggrman]

Considering the losses some of these teams are claiming, year after year, a one-time $30 million payout may be well worth it. Cut bait, and get the hell out of Dodge...

That's not the total cost..
Leipold would still demand money for the team, i'd guess atleast 100M

 

[djhn579]

And what happens if the Stanley Cup goes elsewhere because a judge decides Messrs. Morrison and O'Neill have failed in their duties as trustees?

So, after 10 years of legal battles, the BHL may get the cup if they are still around?

 

[JohnnyReb]

That's not the total cost..
Leipold would still demand money for the team, i'd guess atleast 100M

Under the hypothetical scenario being discussed in that particular tangent you are quoting me on, Bain had already bought the NHL (including Nashville) for $3.5 billion, and then decided to contract some non-viable markets. It would then cost them (apparently) $30 million to contract the Predators.

Leiopold's $100 million would have come from the initial $3.5 billion, and he would be long gone by this point.