OT: NHL All-Time Draft, Round 2

UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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Hello again from the NYR Boards. Due to requests from multiple posters across the boards, I've decided to continue the All Time draft into a second round. The rules for this draft are as follows, if you did not remember:

1. Every team gets a single pick in the round, and the draft order follows the standings as of 3/20/2020 (the first day of the draft). So even if a team traded its 1st Round pick in the 2020 NHL Entry Draft, they still get a choice in this draft.
2. All retired/inactive NHL players are considered eligible for this draft (including guys playing overseas like Jagr). This also includes players like Tretiak who never had an NHL career but are hockey legends in their own right. All active NHL players, as well as players whose rights are owned by an NHL team, are ineligible
3. It is assumed that player abilities are "up-to-date" with the modern game, so a player like Eddie Shore who played in a far different NHL will not be at a disadvantage compared to say Wayne Gretzky or Jaromir Jagr
4. All players will be drafted into the organization at the age of 18, similar to the NHL Entry Draft
5. It is assumed that players will have a similar ceiling to during their playing career, and have the ability to reach said ceiling, although this is not guaranteed. Similarly, they are not guaranteed to suffer the same injury woes they did during their career (should that be relevant)
6. I'll give 2-3 days for votes to come in before the next team goes on the clock.
7. In the event of a tie, I will set up a tiebreaker poll
8. Please check the below post before voting for a player, as it's possible they have already been taken. And remember again, active players are ineligible.
9. If you are trolling, I will ignore your vote. Don't be that guy.
 

UnSandvich

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32. Detroit Red Wings (1st round pick- Wayne Gretzky) - Sergei Fedorov
33. Ottawa Senators (Mario Lemieux) - Teemu Selanne
34. San Jose Sharks (Bobby Orr) - Stan Mikita
35. Los Angeles Kings (Gordie Howe)- Marcel Dionne
36. Anaheim Ducks (Jaromir Jagr) - Larry Robinson
37. New Jersey Devils (Nicklas Lidstrom) - Scott Stevens
38. Buffalo Sabres (Dominik Hasek) - Gilbert Perreault
39. Montreal Canadiens (Jean Beliveau) - Brett Hull
40. Chicago Blackhawks (Mark Messier) - Chris Chelios
41. Arizona Coyotes (Eric Lindros) - Bryan Trottier
42. Minnesota Wild (Joe Sakic) - Frank Mahovlich
43. Vancouver Canucks (Steve Yzerman) - Scott Niedermayer
44. Nashville Predators (Peter Forsberg) - Jacques Plante
45. Florida Panthers (Pavel Bure) - Brian Leetch
46. Calgary Flames (Mike Bossy) - Jarome Iginla
47. New York Rangers (Maurice Richard) - Red Kelly
48. Winnipeg Jets (Dale Hawerchuk) - Cam Neely
49. New York Islanders (Denis Potvin) - Terry Sawchuk
50. Columbus Blue Jackets (Guy Lafleur) - Vladislav Tretiak
51. Toronto Maple Leafs (Patrick Roy) - Pavel Datsyuk
52. Carolina Hurricanes (Ray Bourque) - Ken Dryden
53. Dallas Stars (Doug Harvey) - Jari Kurri
54. Edmonton Oilers (Bobby Hull) - Glenn Hall
55. Vegas Golden Knights (Martin Brodeur) - Peter Stastny
56. Pittsburgh Penguins (Ron Francis) - Al MacInnis
57. Philadelphia Flyers (Bobby Clarke) - Slava Fetisov
58. Washington Capitals (Phil Esposito) - Brad Park
59. Tampa Bay Lightning (Eddie Shore) - On the Clock
60. Colorado Avalanche (Paul Coffey) -
61. St Louis Blues (Chris Pronger) -
62. Boston Bruins (Howie Morenz) -
 

UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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Voting:
I'll update this comment as each new vote comes in, but I can only count it if it's a single player vote (so not "Shore or Harvey" for example). If you're changing your vote later on, that's fine, just make a note of it. I apologize in advance if I am delayed in adding your vote, I am now working full-time so have much less free time on my hands

Frank Nighbor (2)- The Macho King, Felonious Python
Pat Lafontaine (1)- HoseEmDown
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandvich's Best on the Board(tm):

C: Adam Oates, Frank Nighbor, Alex Delvecchio, Cyclone Taylor (C/D), Frank Boucher, Henri Richard, Syl Apps, Newsy Lalonde, Milt Schmidt
LW/RW: Brendan Shanahan, Ted Lindsay, Dit Clapper (RW/D), Bill Cook, Sergei Makarov, Valeri Kharlamov, Charlie Conacher, Bernie Geoffrion, Andy Bathgate, Dickie Moore
D: Larry Murphy, Pierre Pilote, King Clancy, Tim Horton, Bill Gadsby, Sprague Cleghorn, Earl Seibert, Borje Salming
G: Georges Vezina, Frank Brimsek, Clint Benedict
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Frank Nighbor is the top pick here by a mile.

Frank Boucher or Sergei Makarov are solid picks too.
 

UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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Frank Nighbor is the top pick here by a mile.

Frank Boucher or Sergei Makarov are solid picks too.

Would you like me to mark you down for Nighbor then?
(FWIW i agree, and i think if you guys take Nighbor here, then you've got a better set of steals than any other team, including the Rangers)
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Would you like me to mark you down for Nighbor then?
(FWIW i agree, and i think if you guys take Nighbor here, then you've got a better set of steals than any other team, including the Rangers)
Also this should have been a snake draft just saying.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Would you like me to mark you down for Nighbor then?
(FWIW i agree, and i think if you guys take Nighbor here, then you've got a better set of steals than any other team, including the Rangers)
Yeah but I reserve the right to tip the scales if the situation changes.
 
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UnSandvich

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Also this should have been a snake draft just saying.

It was never intended to be more than one round, and quite honestly i didn't want to deal with the hassle of re-formatting midway through. Was enough of a pain in the ass as is.
 

Felonious Python

Minor League Degenerate
Aug 20, 2004
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Found it. Cy Denneny.

2nd highest goals per game (after Bossy) at .755, and also played physical.
Denneny, Cy -- Biography -- Honoured Player -- Legends of Hockey

I'm leaning Lindsay though. Maybe you game the rules to find an old-timer, but why not keep it simple?

There's been 10 players to have had the HHOF wait period waived.
1947 - Dit Clapper
1961 - Maurice "Rocket" Richard
1966 - Ted Lindsay
1969 - Leonard "Red" Kelly
1971 - Terry Sawchuk
1972 - Jean Beliveau
1972 - Gordie Howe
1979 - Bobby Orr
1997 - Mario Lemieux
1999 - Wayne Gretzky

Dit Clapper & Ted Lindsay are the two left, and I don't think Clapper has as good an argument as Lindsay.

The HHOF wait period would of course not apply to players in the pre-HHOF era.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,756
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Found it. Cy Denneny.

2nd highest goals per game (after Bossy) at .755, and also played physical.
Denneny, Cy -- Biography -- Honoured Player -- Legends of Hockey

I'm leaning Lindsay though. Maybe you game the rules to find an old-timer, but why not keep it simple?

There's been 10 players to have had the HHOF wait period waived.
1947 - Dit Clapper
1961 - Maurice "Rocket" Richard
1966 - Ted Lindsay
1969 - Leonard "Red" Kelly
1971 - Terry Sawchuk
1972 - Jean Beliveau
1972 - Gordie Howe
1979 - Bobby Orr
1997 - Mario Lemieux
1999 - Wayne Gretzky

Dit Clapper & Ted Lindsay are the two left, and I don't think Clapper has as good an argument as Lindsay.

The HHOF wait period would of course not apply to players in the pre-HHOF era.
Nighbor is "dinged" because assists weren't really tracked back then (and to the extent they were, unevenly), and he was primarily a playmaker for the 20s Sens dynasty. He was the inventor/popularizer of the poke check, and since you mention Cy Denneny, Nighbor was his pivot. At the time, no one would have considered Denneny the superior player to Nighbor despite his goalscoring advantage - he was clearly seen as the product of a fantastic playmaker (and D corps - G. Boucher, King Clancy, and Sprague Cleghorn all spent time back there).

Clapper is interesting because he is (I think) the only player to win a postseason all-star award at both forward and defense - he started his career as a winger and finished off as a D after Shore retired, and was excellent at both positions.

I'd be fine with Lindsay too - he rules and him and Shore are two complete f***ing psychopaths which is fun.
 

UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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Nighbor is "dinged" because assists weren't really tracked back then (and to the extent they were, unevenly), and he was primarily a playmaker for the 20s Sens dynasty. He was the inventor/popularizer of the poke check, and since you mention Cy Denneny, Nighbor was his pivot. At the time, no one would have considered Denneny the superior player to Nighbor despite his goalscoring advantage - he was clearly seen as the product of a fantastic playmaker (and D corps - G. Boucher, King Clancy, and Sprague Cleghorn all spent time back there).

Clapper is interesting because he is (I think) the only player to win a postseason all-star award at both forward and defense - he started his career as a winger and finished off as a D after Shore retired, and was excellent at both positions.

I'd be fine with Lindsay too - he rules and him and Shore are two complete f***ing psychopaths which is fun.

Well mate, if you really want a psycho, how about Sprague Cleghorn? Per wikipedia:

"Cleghorn had a reputation for violent play; he was twice charged with assault following on-ice incidents and was subject to efforts to have him banned from the NHL."

"In a 1923 playoff series, against his former team, the Ottawa Senators (whom he had grown to despise), Cleghorn struck Senators defenceman Lionel Hitchman in the head with his stick. He was charged with aggravated assault, found guilty and fined $50. The incident enraged Canadiens owner, Leo Dandurand, who suspended him from the roster for the remainder of the playoffs. In another incident with the Senators in 1922, he initiated a brawl during which he injured three players, Eddie Gerard, Frank Nighbor, and Cy Dennenny. The Ottawa management attempted to have him expelled from the league, and a referee to describe him as a "disgrace to the game". "

"Known for both his intense competitive nature and violent temper, Cleghorn was considered one of the toughest and dirtiest players of his time. Respected by his teammates and hated by his opponents, Cleghorn often used his stick as a weapon and was routinely among his team's leaders in both goals and penalty minutes. He claimed to have been involved in at least fifty incidents during his career in which a player left the ice on a stretcher. In the season when Ottawa unsuccessfully attempted to have him banned from the NHL, Cleghorn led the league in penalty minutes with 80. According to some accounts, Evelyn Byng, Viscountess Byng of Vimy, was so mortified by Cleghorn's style that she donated the Lady Byng Trophy to the NHL in 1924 in a bid to encourage more sportsmanlike play"
 

UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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A Cleghorn-Shore D pairing would be *bar none* the single least fun D pairing to be lined up against, leaguewide.
 

Sky04

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Jan 8, 2009
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The fact that this isn't a snake draft kind of invalidates the entire thing, you'll notice the discrepancy in 2-3 rounds if you don't already.
 
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UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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The fact that this isn't a snake draft kind of invalidates the entire thing, you'll the discrepancy in 2-3 rounds if you don't already.

Well, it's a good thing it's only going 4 more teams then, not 2-3 more rounds.
 

Felonious Python

Minor League Degenerate
Aug 20, 2004
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Well mate, if you really want a psycho, how about Sprague Cleghorn? Per wikipedia:

"Cleghorn had a reputation for violent play; he was twice charged with assault following on-ice incidents and was subject to efforts to have him banned from the NHL."

"In a 1923 playoff series, against his former team, the Ottawa Senators (whom he had grown to despise), Cleghorn struck Senators defenceman Lionel Hitchman in the head with his stick. He was charged with aggravated assault, found guilty and fined $50. The incident enraged Canadiens owner, Leo Dandurand, who suspended him from the roster for the remainder of the playoffs. In another incident with the Senators in 1922, he initiated a brawl during which he injured three players, Eddie Gerard, Frank Nighbor, and Cy Dennenny. The Ottawa management attempted to have him expelled from the league, and a referee to describe him as a "disgrace to the game". "

"Known for both his intense competitive nature and violent temper, Cleghorn was considered one of the toughest and dirtiest players of his time. Respected by his teammates and hated by his opponents, Cleghorn often used his stick as a weapon and was routinely among his team's leaders in both goals and penalty minutes. He claimed to have been involved in at least fifty incidents during his career in which a player left the ice on a stretcher. In the season when Ottawa unsuccessfully attempted to have him banned from the NHL, Cleghorn led the league in penalty minutes with 80. According to some accounts, Evelyn Byng, Viscountess Byng of Vimy, was so mortified by Cleghorn's style that she donated the Lady Byng Trophy to the NHL in 1924 in a bid to encourage more sportsmanlike play"
Did some more reading.

I'm going Nighbor.

The best argument I found. https://thehockeywriters.com/elite-eight-the-best-defensive-forwards-in-hockey-history/
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Did some more reading.

I'm going Nighbor.

The best argument I found. https://thehockeywriters.com/elite-eight-the-best-defensive-forwards-in-hockey-history/
HoH board on here as a ton on Nighbor as well. If I recall he ended up in the top 20 of the greatest players of all time list (for the record, a good bit above Bobby Clarke himself).

For me - when comparing their resumes and ignoring the hype, I don't see what separates him from Morenz in an all-time sense from roughly the same era. But the Habs continued and so Morenz as a Habs legend grew, while the Senators folded and so their history faded into relative obscurity.

Edit: And for the record, I have an issue with the linked article. I'm far from a "modern players are the best"-type (see my lobbying for Nighbor and Shore), but not having Patrice Bergeron on that list is f***ing criminal. I think he is right there in that second tier of elite defensive forwards after Nighbor and Clarke.

Edit2: Okay - it seems like this article was originally written in 2013 and just re-posted. Objection withdrawn.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,756
29,246
Would you like me to mark you down for Nighbor then?
(FWIW i agree, and i think if you guys take Nighbor here, then you've got a better set of steals than any other team, including the Rangers)
Caps, Blackhawks, and Sharks look pretty damn nice too.
 

Felonious Python

Minor League Degenerate
Aug 20, 2004
30,630
8,783
HoH board on here as a ton on Nighbor as well. If I recall he ended up in the top 20 of the greatest players of all time list (for the record, a good bit above Bobby Clarke himself).

For me - when comparing their resumes and ignoring the hype, I don't see what separates him from Morenz in an all-time sense from roughly the same era. But the Habs continued and so Morenz as a Habs legend grew, while the Senators folded and so their history faded into relative obscurity.
I'm not really looking at the rankings. I'm looking at the projected awards and the quotes from historians and contemporaries.

Morenz also died during his playing career, although his peak was behind him. There's a mythical element to that.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,756
29,246
I'm not really looking at the rankings. I'm looking at the projected awards and the quotes from historians and contemporaries.

Morenz also died during his playing career, although his peak was behind him. There's a mythical element to that.
Oh I wasn't talking about the rankings - there's actually a ton of collected research (especially in the ATD board) collecting quotes, newspaper clippings, etc. from the period. And the discussions that lead to the ratings themselves also collect a large amount of information.

ATD 2010 Bios

There's a ton of amazing quotes here if you're interested.
 
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UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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3 votes currently. Will probably move to the next team tomorrow morning, so if you haven't voted yet and want to now's the time
 

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