Line Combos: New PP & ES lines at practice. Bourque Benched?

WeThreeKings

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With Boston's forward depth, playing the better D-man (Bouillon) ought to be a no-brainer. Well, in reality, playing Bouillon over Murray at any time ought to be a no-brainer, but especially against the better clubs in the league who have more forward depth to exploit a vulnerable D-man.

Vanek with Plekanec is the natural thing to try first, but he might be better used on a line that has more of an offensive push. I'd advocate swapping him and MaxPac, but that might be a bit too radical. And putting him with Eller, while it makes sense lineup-wise, might a bit controversial.

There's about a few things you can do... Either put Vanek on the top line.. or have Vanek with Plekanec & Galchenyuk or Plekanec & Briere.

Briere is ****ing useless if he's not in an offensive role.
 

Kobe Armstrong

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Jul 26, 2011
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Paccioretty-DD-Vanek
Bournival-Plekanec-Gionta
Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher
Moen-White-Prust
ex: Weise, Briere, Borque

I don't know, lineup would change for the playoffs because Briere is supposed to be money and Borque was pretty good last season.
 

MathMan

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Jan 20, 2006
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There's about a few things you can do... Either put Vanek on the top line..

The Plekanec line is the top line.

or have Vanek with Plekanec & Galchenyuk or Plekanec & Briere.

So really this is about not wanting him with Gionta?

Briere is ****ing useless if he's not in an offensive role.

Yes and no. There is value in mauling opposing fourth liners and getting your goals there. Briere, unfortunately, has lost too many steps to be used in a top-6 role.
 

WeThreeKings

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The Plekanec line is the top line.



So really this is about not wanting him with Gionta?



Yes and no. There is value in mauling opposing fourth liners and getting your goals there. Briere, unfortunately, has lost too many steps to be used in a top-6 role.

Yes. Did you watch the San Jose game? Vanek set Gionta up multiple times and Gionta completely killed it. He can't think the game on an offensive level like Vanek does.
 

FlyingKostitsyn

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Any lineup without Bourque is a better lineup than one with him.

Now when are we going to see Briere and Vanek together? Why insist on having him play with Gionta?

Gionta isn't a good playmaker, Vanek needs someone to set him up for those sweet deflections. Funny enough for all the Desharnais bashers, I'm sure DD and Vanek would kill it together. In fact the Pacioretty-DD-Vanek PP line could be incredibly efficient.
 

WeThreeKings

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Any lineup without Bourque is a better lineup than one with him.

Now when are we going to see Briere and Vanek together? Why insist on having him play with Gionta?

Gionta isn't a good playmaker, Vanek needs someone to set him up for those sweet deflections.

I dunno.. it's the same baffling thing that Therrien did with Desharnais.

If you are short, you get the benefit of being given every opportunity, every linemate, every chance to succeed.
 

MathMan

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Yes. Did you watch the San Jose game? Vanek set Gionta up multiple times and Gionta completely killed it. He can't think the game on an offensive level like Vanek does.

Funny, he's been fine with the likes of Mike Cammalleri and Patrik Elias before. Gionta is a guy with multiple 25-goal seasons to his name and brains tend not to go away with with age.

I'd hesitate to call the combo doomed based on one game, which also happened to be the second one the two have ever played together.
 

Beatnik

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I dunno.. it's the same baffling thing that Therrien did with Desharnais.

If you are short, you get the benefit of being given every opportunity, every linemate, every chance to succeed.


He sent DD on the press-box earlier this season. He been relativement patient with him but time proved him right.
 

FlyingKostitsyn

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Funny, he's been fine with the likes of Mike Cammalleri and Patrik Elias before. Gionta is a guy with multiple 25-goal seasons to his name and brains tend not to go away with with age.

I'd hesitate to call the combo doomed based on one game, which also happened to be the second one the two have ever played together.

I just don't see Gionta and Vanek's styles of play meshing together. Both are most effective around the net, Vanek is just much, much better.

Imho its clear it should be :

Vanek-Plekanec-Briere (THATS a first line)
Pacioretty-Desharnais-Gionta (THATS a great second line)
Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher (THATS a proven, successful third line)
*insert whatever remains here with White, Prust, Weise and company*
Bench : Bourque

Voila.
 

WeThreeKings

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Funny, he's been fine with the likes of Mike Cammalleri and Patrik Elias before. Gionta is a guy with multiple 25-goal seasons to his name and brains tend not to go away with with age.

I'd hesitate to call the combo doomed based on one game, which also happened to be the second one the two have ever played together.

Yeah, you're right. Gionta is an amazing offensive 2nd line winger.

The dude had operations on both his biceps. His shot is not a threat anymore. His speed isn't there any more.

He's not the same player dude. I'd have no problem with Cammy era, Gionta. We have this version of Gionta. He's terribad.
 

MathMan

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I just don't see Gionta and Vanek's styles of play meshing together. Both are most effective around the net, Vanek is just much, much better.

The problem is that Gionta is a much better two-way player than Vanek, let alone Briere. If you want to play power-on-power with Plekanec (and you should, no sense wasting Pleky's defensive wizardry) then you can't play him with both Vanek and Briere who are both ill-suited for the role (Vanek less so).

There's only so much offensive push to go around, especially for a weak possession club like the Habs. Someone is going to have to take the tough minutes from the defensive zone and on the Habs Plekanec is best-suited for this.

It's true that Vanek doesn't ideally fit that role; but absent a Vanek-Pacioretty swap (would be a much better fit, IMO), you have to either put Vanek on Eller's wing in secondary toughs, or else consider moving Eller himself to Plekanec's wing and playing Vanek with Galchenyuk at center.

Really, the Habs' ideal first line would be 67-14-21, with Vanek and DD anchoring a killer, offense-oriented second line, but I don't think 67-51 is getting split anytime soon.
 

MathMan

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The dude had operations on both his biceps. His shot is not a threat anymore. His speed isn't there any more.

But that's not what you wrote initially. You wrote that he couldn't think the game on an offensive level enough.

I'm not convinced Gionta has any offensive issues that aren't caused by starting his shifts in the defensive zone more often than any Hab forward. That, of course, may make him and Pleks less-than-ideal linemates for Vanek.
 

Milhouse40

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BEST "5 on 5" line this year

#1 : Briere - Plekanec - Gionta (+9)
#2: Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallgher (+2)
#3: Bournival - White - Moen (+2)
#4: Pacioretty - Desharnais - Bourque (+1)

Might surprise you, despite putting up points, Pac-DD-Gally are -1 at ES strenght.
 

WeThreeKings

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But that's not what you wrote initially. You wrote that he couldn't think the game on an offensive level enough.

I'm not convinced Gionta has any offensive issues that aren't caused by starting his shifts in the defensive zone more often than any Hab forward. That, of course, may make him and Pleks less-than-ideal linemates for Vanek.

I don't think he can, no. His role was always the same with those lines, which was to go to the net and deflect pucks, get lose pucks and score from close to the net.

Vanek requires someone to think the give-and-go game with. Gionta goes, but there's no give, and he's going to shoot rather than make another pass.

Gionta goes to grinder-areas when Vanek is making passes to the skilled areas of the ice. There's a disconnect there. Gionta would be better suited to playing with Eller. Eller likes to drive possession along the boards and play around the net. Gionta can be a defensive conscience with Eller and they can play that game together.
 

Teufelsdreck

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Sep 17, 2005
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Perhaps MT is saving him for the playoffs. I recall some posters gushing about his beastliness against Ottawa last year....

I doubt Ottawa will be in the POs. Bourque didn't play against any other PO team, so all we have to go on is his RS play in 2013-14. No one would gush about that.
 

Fazkovsky

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Sep 4, 2013
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BEST "5 on 5" line this year

#1 : Briere - Plekanec - Gionta (+9)
#2: Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallgher (+2)
#3: Bournival - White - Moen (+2)
#4: Pacioretty - Desharnais - Bourque (+1)

Might surprise you, despite putting up points, Pac-DD-Gally are -1 at ES strenght.

Finally some facts. I think A Vanek-Pleky-Briere line would be a really good idea after all.

As for Vanek-DD-Pac I dont trust this line in their own end
 

MathMan

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BEST "5 on 5" line this year

Have to be very careful with plus-minus.

- it's very dependent in variations on shooting and save percentage (ie. luck)
- it completely ignores context, so a line used in the defensive zone a lot against top opposition will tend to have a lower plus-minus, despite not necessarily being "worse" than a line that has a more favorable, offensive-oriented deployment.

Because of these issues, it's generally pretty worthless as a stat, especially in small samples.
 

habitue*

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Having Bourque out of the line up is already a step in the right direction. Keep up the good work, MT !
 

Hoople

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Mar 7, 2011
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BEST "5 on 5" line this year

#1 : Briere - Plekanec - Gionta (+9)
#2: Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallgher (+2)
#3: Bournival - White - Moen (+2)
#4: Pacioretty - Desharnais - Bourque (+1)

Might surprise you, despite putting up points, Pac-DD-Gally are -1 at ES strenght.

I almost choked on my glass of iced tea here.:laugh::laugh:

I know you hate DD but you want Bourque to play with him. Damn dude, you are choking me up again. Lets kill the only offense this team has.

As said previously, sitting Bourque is a step in the right direction.

On an aside, Therrien hates Bergevin. Bergevin gets Briere, MT plays him on the 4th line. He gets Weise, MT press boxes him. He gets Vanek..........we will see.
 

TheCanasianfrasian

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Aug 18, 2006
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Am i the only one thats really mad that Vanek gets Plekanec and Gionta?

Brière Desharnais and Galchenyuk are ALL centers with better playmaking skill than Plekanec. Why is our best scorer stuck with our worst players playstyle wise.

I just don't get it. I don't hate on all of MT's decisions like some here, but holy **** this one gets me so mad.
 

dkd

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Am i the only one thats really mad that Vanek gets Plekanec and Gionta?

Brière Desharnais and Galchenyuk are ALL centers with better playmaking skill than Plekanec. Why is our best scorer stuck with our worst players playstyle wise.

I just don't get it. I don't hate on all of MT's decisions like some here, but holy **** this one gets me so mad.

LOL :laugh:
 

Milhouse40

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Aug 19, 2010
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I almost choked on my glass of iced tea here.:laugh::laugh:

I know you hate DD but you want Bourque to play with him. Damn dude, you are choking me up again. Lets kill the only offense this team has.

As said previously, sitting Bourque is a step in the right direction.

On an aside, Therrien hates Bergevin. Bergevin gets Briere, MT plays him on the 4th line. He gets Weise, MT press boxes him. He gets Vanek..........we will see.

Did i say to do anything here....
And did Vanek is anywhere in there.....

But that line of thinking is what kept Pac-DD-Cole together back then and dragged this team to the bottom. Having said that, if DD is good as some would pretend, i don't think it would be a problem to get Pac off that line for Vanek or galchenyuk.

Pac-DD-Gally might bring offensive as you put it.
But a line who didn't score goal but don't allowed one is better than the one scoring 2 but allowing 3. The +/- showed that this line is dangerous at both end of the ice.
 

JLP

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Aug 16, 2005
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I dunno.. it's the same baffling thing that Therrien did with Desharnais.

If you are short, you get the benefit of being given every opportunity, every linemate, every chance to succeed.

MT's coaching is Bantam level so he feels more confident when he looks down and sees a bench full of small fries.

If the canadiens.com lines are accurate then versus Boston tomorrow we will have SIX players who are 5'9" or shorter. I think that's a Habs record for this season and maybe an NHL record? And there are actually people here arguing Bouillon's return adds some sort of strategic advantage (゜-゜)
 

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