Waived: Nestrasil

[Mijatovic]

As criminal as it might be, could push Datsyuk down to the third line and give him some easier minutes if Weiss ever gets moving. Might allow him to not injure himself so much and produce at a decent clip without over extending himself. Weiss may never hit that production though.

Nyquist - Z - Franzen
Tatar - Weiss - Abd
Datsyuk - Sheahan - Jurco
4th

 

[Hammettf2b]

As criminal as it might be, could push Datsyuk down to the third line and give him some easier minutes if Weiss ever gets moving. Might allow him to not injure himself so much and produce at a decent clip without over extending himself. Weiss may never hit that production though.

Nyquist - Z - Franzen
Tatar - Weiss - Abd
Datsyuk - Sheahan - Jurco
4th

Not a big fan of this at all.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I'm surprised there's so much general talk about Glendening and Andersson but so little of Miller. Miller's role on the team is waay overrated here and he makes as much money as they do combined.

Funny you say that when miller has played awesome lately. Could easily have 3 or 4 goals in the last few games if not for some incredibly bad luck.

 

[Fugu]

The theory that because multiple teams put in a claim for Nestrasil means there was a market to trade him is hilarious. Teams aren't going to give up draft picks for unproven depth players.

Sure, why would you give up assets if you know the team has too many guys called up and that they'll have to resort to giving away talent? The other GMs aren't dumb, and they count on Holland remaining loyal to guys no one else really wants.

 

[Fugu]

1) Weiss has far more upside, and a lot invested in him, so he's not a realistic option. Andersson is a better player, so he's not a realistic option. Cleary maybe, but then Nestrasil is still sitting in the pressbox.

The short of it is that Nestrasil wasn't a top-12 forward for us, and didn't project to be in the near future (and probably not the distant future). So rather than selfishly damage his career in order to keep him around on the off-chance he magically turns into something much more while spending most of his time in the pressbox, they made a move that was considerate and guaranteed him either A) regular playing time with GR in order to continue his development, or B) a chance to play in the NHL with another [weaker] team.

In sum, it was at the point where treating Nestrasil fairly > keeping him around as rotting depth.

2) Having multiple waiver claims does not mean that Nestrasil had trade value. The two are not directly related. He might have had some trade value, though I doubt it. But even if he did, it's entirely possible the Wings valued a chance at keeping him in the organization more than they did a bonus 7th-rounder.

Yes, Weiss has so much value that the coach chooses not to play him, and publicly calls him out at times.

Not that I agree with Babs handling of it, and not knowing where you stand on Weiss in the numerous discussions about him, board consensus being that he had less value than anyone else on the roster.

Sure, he's not a top 12 forward for us TODAY, but I feel like you're also neglecting potential and development time that was afforded to players who are ahead of him now and who might not necessarily remain there if he had been afforded the same.

Regarding the waiver vs trade approach, like I said, if other teams know you're stuck, they're not going to help you. Best option is to avoid putting yourself in that position.

 

[Mijatovic]

Its more that Datsyuk has really been struggling to stay healthy. The team needs to fund a way to manage his IT lower.

 

[jaster]

Yes, Weiss has so much value that the coach chooses not to play him, and publicly calls him out at times.

Not that I agree with Babs handling of it, and not knowing where you stand on Weiss in the numerous discussions about him, board consensus being that he had less value than anyone else on the roster.

Weiss has no value at the moment, and had no value when he was being benched. But that's because he also wasn't, and isn't, up to speed yet. He needs more time. Folks in general are being too impatient with the situation and are confusing Weiss not being ready with Babcock not valuing Weiss. When (if) Weiss is ready, Babcock will play him. That's why I said Weiss has upside in my post, instead of value (with "upside" being synonymous with "potential value").

Sure, he's not a top 12 forward for us TODAY, but I feel like you're also neglecting potential and development time that was afforded to players who are ahead of him now and who might not necessarily remain there if he had been afforded the same.

Well, again, I said he's not top-12 today, isn't top-12 in the short-term (assuming relative team health), and is unlikely to be top-12 in the long-term. He simply doesn't have much upside at all. He projects as depth.

Regarding the waiver vs trade approach, like I said, if other teams know you're stuck, they're not going to help you. Best option is to avoid putting yourself in that position.

Ok, well for people buying that line of reasoning, why are we complaining that Holland failed to trade him while also assuming he had trade value to begin with? In your scenario, he has no trade value.

But for the record, I don't buy that. We weren't "stuck." We did what was reasonable. Had we been trying to trade Nestrasil, it wouldn't be a given that if we didn't we'd go on to waive him. Holland could have just lied to other teams and said, "We'll trade this Nestrasil kid if you're interested, but if not, no biggie, we'll just end up waiving Jurco/Cleary/whoever."

 

[14ari13]

If we're healthy, people are going to be shifted out of that top9. And they should be. As it is, Babcock treats the Glendening line like a second line, giving them a lot of minutes where we're happy they just break even. They are often trapped in our zone, Andersson & Miller don't bring any physicality, and they aren't any sort of consistent threat to get into the offensive zone, let alone find the back of the net on occasion.

If we're healthy, Datsyuk will be taking one of those top9 spots, and Weiss should get a long look at another. I'd roll something like:

Franzen-Z-Nyquist
Tatar-Sheahan-Abdelkader
Datsyuk-Weiss-Jurco
Miller-Helm-Glendening

With Khan talking about Mantha likely getting called up if he plays well in GR, I'd slide Mantha then into Gator's spot, and put Gator where Miller is. I'm also not against having Weiss center the fourth line line between Helm and Glendening, and letting Datsyuk center Mantha and Jurco, while leaving Gator where he is.

Whether they get trapped in the defensive zone or not, they come up good. Glendening is +4, Andersson is +2, Miller is even, while Datsyuk is -1.
I think we should endlessly praise that line. They play big min vs other teams top lines, thus giving our other line room to provide offense.

 

[waltdetroit]

My take on Nesty was that he seemed to be a better scorer when playing center (I could be mistaken), but he played wing at the end of the season and the playoffs last year. I think he may not have the time to get good enough to pass other centers. I really was impressed with how he has stuck to his dream when he could be making $$ in Europe. All the best & I hope to see him play in the NHL in the future.

 

[14ari13]

Someone's always gonna be the slowest.. doesn't mean you need to get rid of the player. Andersson complements Glendening pretty well. Different players make for a good line and that's what we have with our 4th line. Individually they really aren't much, but who cares as long as they work together. We built our 4th line from leftovers for some years so it's nice to have something that works again.

I'm surprised there's so much general talk about Glendening and Andersson but so little of Miller. Miller's role on the team is waay overrated here and he makes as much money as they do combined.

This is a good point. Separately they might not be good, but as a unit they work pretty well. There must be the chemistry.

As for Andersson, he might be the slowest player on the team along with Cleary, but he is a big body and has found his role despite all shortcomings.

 

[Henkka]

Whether they get trapped in the defensive zone or not, they come up good. Glendening is +4, Andersson is +2, Miller is even, while Datsyuk is -1.
I think we should endlessly praise that line. They play big min vs other teams top lines, thus giving our other line room to provide offense.

http://somekindofninja.com/nhl/usag...siRel&yAxis=qoc&update-filters=Update+Results

This really shows well how defensively our 4th line has been used. All other forwards have zone starts between 55-68% in offensive zone. Miller-Glendening-Andersson starts 33-35% from the defensive zone.

Franzen-Z-Nyquist still has the highest qualcomp on average.

 

[detredWINgs]

Someone's always gonna be the slowest.. doesn't mean you need to get rid of the player. Andersson complements Glendening pretty well. Different players make for a good line and that's what we have with our 4th line. Individually they really aren't much, but who cares as long as they work together. We built our 4th line from leftovers for some years so it's nice to have something that works again.

I'm surprised there's so much general talk about Glendening and Andersson but so little of Miller. Miller's role on the team is waay overrated here and he makes as much money as they do combined.

I don't know what games you've been watching, but Miller has been great this year. If there's anyone who is a passenger and replaceable on the 4th line, it is certainly Andersson. Miller is better defensively, faster, and way more physical than Andersson.

Also, when either of Glendening or Andersson have been 1st unit NHL PKers for 5 years running and can contribute 10 goals to boot, then they'll get their $1M+ paychecks too.

 

[JClaus33]

Just scored his first goal for us, looks good in his 1st game here

 

[JPE123]

Just scored his first goal for us, looks good in his 1st game here

Glad to hear it for him. I think you got a good player

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Just scored his first goal for us, looks good in his 1st game here

Wonderful, I truly hope that he does well for you guys.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Just scored his first goal for us, looks good in his 1st game here

sorry, scoring against reto berra doesn't count.

you'll have to wait a little more for the first real goal.

 

[Detroit Sports*]

As criminal as it might be, could push Datsyuk down to the third line and give him some easier minutes if Weiss ever gets moving. Might allow him to not injure himself so much and produce at a decent clip without over extending himself. Weiss may never hit that production though.

Nyquist - Z - Franzen
Tatar - Weiss - Abd
Datsyuk - Sheahan - Jurco
4th

Move Dats to the third line for a player that can't even do anything? Sorry guys but Weiss is garbage. Before he got hurt I always thought this too.

 

[opivy]

sorry, scoring against reto berra doesn't count.

you'll have to wait a little more for the first real goal.

It counts sour grapes. Congratulations to Nestrasil. I think we messed up here he can contribute and we lost him for no reason.

 

[Winger98]

Whether they get trapped in the defensive zone or not, they come up good. Glendening is +4, Andersson is +2, Miller is even, while Datsyuk is -1.
I think we should endlessly praise that line. They play big min vs other teams top lines, thus giving our other line room to provide offense.

Because getting trapped in our own zone for shifts at a time doesn't always reflect the line that starts it. The fourth line might survive it long enough to chip it down the ice and get off for a change, but then by the time our next line can get over the board, here comes the other team again putting us back on our heels. It wears our guys down, and with the other team controlling possession and zone time, raises the likelihood that they'll put a shot on net that'll squeak through.

Also, it shows how little we trust our top guys. How many cups have been won by teams whose top guys couldn't go out and beat the other team's top guys? In other words, how many teams relied on a pure shut down line to get better match-ups for their goal scorers? The last team that I can think of that really employed that strategy, and won a cup, was Anaheim. But they had Pronger and Neidermeyer back there to eat up 50+ minutes a night while Pahlsson and Moen (and whoever the third guy was, Rob Neidermeyer, maybe?) clawed their way to a stalemate every shift.

If the Glendening line could more consistently tilt the ice, it'd be less of a problem. I still don't think they should be getting more ice than the Sheahan line, though, for example. Or a Datsyuk line, assuming Datsyuk comes back to center a separate line.

Also, whatever we're doing isn't really working as well for the team anymore, either. The entire month of November has seen our goals against increase. Out of ten games this month, we've given up less than three goals just three times. We can try to sort out which line is at fault for it, or what not, but it might just be about how we deploy our lines.

 

[Henkka]

Because getting trapped in our own zone for shifts at a time doesn't always reflect the line that starts it. The fourth line might survive it long enough to chip it down the ice and get off for a change, but then by the time our next line can get over the board, here comes the other team again putting us back on our heels. It wears our guys down, and with the other team controlling possession and zone time, raises the likelihood that they'll put a shot on net that'll squeak through.

Also, it shows how little we trust our top guys. How many cups have been won by teams whose top guys couldn't go out and beat the other team's top guys? In other words, how many teams relied on a pure shut down line to get better match-ups for their goal scorers? The last team that I can think of that really employed that strategy, and won a cup, was Anaheim. But they had Pronger and Neidermeyer back there to eat up 50+ minutes a night while Pahlsson and Moen (and whoever the third guy was, Rob Neidermeyer, maybe?) clawed their way to a stalemate every shift.

If the Glendening line could more consistently tilt the ice, it'd be less of a problem. I still don't think they should be getting more ice than the Sheahan line, though, for example. Or a Datsyuk line, assuming Datsyuk comes back to center a separate line.

Also, whatever we're doing isn't really working as well for the team anymore, either. The entire month of November has seen our goals against increase. Out of ten games this month, we've given up less than three goals just three times. We can try to sort out which line is at fault for it, or what not, but it might just be about how we deploy our lines.

Chicago did use exactly same way their Kruger-line at last season. Didn't win a Cup but was the strongest threat LA Kings ever played against.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Chicago did use exactly same way their Kruger-line at last season. Didn't win a Cup but was the strongest threat LA Kings ever played against.

kruger line also performed better in that role. they weren't getting hemmed into their own zone like glendening line is.

kruger line's relative corsi was -11-13 range.

for glendening line it's -25 to -29.

glendening is riding pretty ridiculous % so far that explains his +/-. wings goalies have stopped 95.41% of shots 5on5 when he's on the ice. i could see him being above average but no way he maintains that.

even more ridiculous is that wings have scored on more than 9.5% of their shots when glendening is on the ice. a highly, highly skilled player could do that long-term (note: malkin and kane weren't able to do that from '10-'14 and datsyuk was under 9%) but 4th line center with little to no offensive skills can't. NHL average is around 8%, i think and lower for 4th liners. glendening had under 6% last year. those numbers will come down. hopefully babcock starts playing them less, sooner than later.

 

[iDangleDangle]

kruger line also performed better in that role. they weren't getting hemmed into their own zone like glendening line is.

kruger line's relative corsi was -11-13 range.

for glendening line it's -25 to -29.

glendening is riding pretty ridiculous % so far that explains his +/-. wings goalies have stopped 95.41% of shots 5on5 when he's on the ice. i could see him being above average but no way he maintains that.

even more ridiculous is that wings have scored on more than 9.5% of their shots when glendening is on the ice. a highly, highly skilled player could do that long-term (note: malkin and kane weren't able to do that from '10-'14 and datsyuk was under 9%) but 4th line center with little to no offensive skills can't. NHL average is around 8%, i think and lower for 4th liners. glendening had under 6% last year. those numbers will come down. hopefully babcock starts playing them less, sooner than later.

That's a great way of using advanced stats, kudos to you So many use them the wrong way.

Anywho, I really like the Glendening line, although I'd like to see Joker replaced by a more physical player who could really create havoc in the offensive zone with relentless fore check and hitting. But Babs can't keep playing a line with next to zero offensive abilities. That much. Even if they are doing great job shutting down star players of other teams - and I don't think that is sustainable with the minutes they are playing and how much they spend of those minutes trapped on the d-zone.

 

[14ari13]

Because getting trapped in our own zone for shifts at a time doesn't always reflect the line that starts it. The fourth line might survive it long enough to chip it down the ice and get off for a change, but then by the time our next line can get over the board, here comes the other team again putting us back on our heels. It wears our guys down, and with the other team controlling possession and zone time, raises the likelihood that they'll put a shot on net that'll squeak through.

Also, it shows how little we trust our top guys. How many cups have been won by teams whose top guys couldn't go out and beat the other team's top guys? In other words, how many teams relied on a pure shut down line to get better match-ups for their goal scorers? The last team that I can think of that really employed that strategy, and won a cup, was Anaheim. But they had Pronger and Neidermeyer back there to eat up 50+ minutes a night while Pahlsson and Moen (and whoever the third guy was, Rob Neidermeyer, maybe?) clawed their way to a stalemate every shift.

If the Glendening line could more consistently tilt the ice, it'd be less of a problem. I still don't think they should be getting more ice than the Sheahan line, though, for example. Or a Datsyuk line, assuming Datsyuk comes back to center a separate line.

Also, whatever we're doing isn't really working as well for the team anymore, either. The entire month of November has seen our goals against increase. Out of ten games this month, we've given up less than three goals just three times. We can try to sort out which line is at fault for it, or what not, but it might just be about how we deploy our lines.

How about scotty Bowman and the grind line?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

How about scotty Bowman and the grind line?

True elite checking matchups rarely went to that line. Yes they were first over the boards for the PK in terms of Maltby and Draper. However, they didn't chase matchups as much with them. Bowman was fine with leaving them out there, but check the tape on those teams. Fedorov and Yzerman saw the heavy diet of top line players. The Gretzky, Sakic, Forsberg matchups were not being handled by the grind line, in part because you would basically be punting possession. A lot of what the grind line did well was their PK work and abusing the bottom six matchup they were given tilting the ice and gaining momentum.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I honestly thought he'd clear. Disappointed we waived him over Cleary. As far as 13th forwards go, I'd rather have Nestrasil. Though I don't see how he had much of a future here unless we waived/traded Miller, Andersson, or Glendening, all of whom have obviously been better than Nestrasil. I'm not particularly mad over the situation, but it's sad to see talented young players go for nothing.( See: Jarnkrok, Calle...That one STILL infuriates me.) I wish him all the best in Carolina and happy to see he scored already.