NCAA football only conferences?

[LadyStanley]

Here's an idea: Set up football-only college conferences

There is one simple move that would benefit both the bottom line and the welfare of student-athletes who don't play football.

sports.yahoo.com

One idea.

Click to read more...

 

[tucker3434]

Probably should. Big East has already provided an example. Once you get beyond the SEC and Big10, I’m not sure there’s enough TV revenue to even justify the football teams traveling across the country for games, much less the gymnastics team. The rest of these departures and acquisitions need to be smart if they’re going to include all sports.

 

[Spydey629]

Hockey is the only sport I know of with sport-specific conferences. Because it made sense.

It makes sense here, too.

 

[wildthing202]

Hockey is the only sport I know of with sport-specific conferences. Because it made sense.

It makes sense here, too.

Probably because there's not many power 4 football teams with hockey programs. It's basically 1/3 of the B1G, ASU, Notre Dame, and Boston College.

 

[GKJ]

Guy is talking about it like it’s some novel concept that isn’t already the norm just because it doesn’t exist in football. People keep writing this stuff worried about the gymnastics team when not even every school has a program - especially on the men’s side. Most of them don’t.

 

[tucker3434]

Guy is talking about it like it’s some novel concept that isn’t already the norm just because it doesn’t exist in football. People keep writing this stuff worried about the gymnastics team when not even every school has a program - especially on the men’s side. Most of them don’t.

Towards the end, he mentioned that it was fairly common in places where people aren’t paying much attention. I had no idea Mizzou even had a wrestling team. Definitely didn’t realize they were still in the Big12 for that sport only. In general, that stuff is uncommon in the P5 and mostly done out of necessity (the SEC doesn’t have wrestling).

Gymnastics is just code for non-revenue sports. Everybody has those. None of them make money.

 

[GKJ]

Towards the end, he mentioned that it was fairly common in places where people aren’t paying much attention. I had no idea Mizzou even had a wrestling team. Definitely didn’t realize they were still in the Big12 for that sport only. In general, that stuff is uncommon in the P5 and mostly done out of necessity (the SEC doesn’t have wrestling).

Gymnastics is just code for non-revenue sports. Everybody has those. None of them make money.

A lot of them likely only exist to cover Title IX.

 

[KevFu]

There's no interest in "Football only conferences" -- even though a ton of schools have been "football only members" of a conference for decades.

The TV deals that are signed for football games INCLUDE all the basketball, the women's basketball and other sports, too. It's just the value of football is higher because it's "event television on Saturday" and not spread out over the entire week, like basketball.

And at the end of the day, it's not the football teams, it's the overall athletics BRANDS, even though most of the brand is the football team.

No one wants to waste the time and energy sorting out a split like that with double the meetings, double the negotiations, double the logistics.

If you separated football and "all other sports" the Big Ten isn't UNDOING their additions. The schools that get invited to other conferences are usually pretty good at both, and in the Big Ten's case... USC football and UCLA basketball. Why wouldn't they want both schools going forward?


Everyone likes to point out the travel distances and how these far-flung conferences are insane.

But the SCHEDULE is the same length for total games every season. They're still playing 30 basketball games. UCLA is gonna play a ridiculously similar schedule in the Big Ten...

7 OOC home games vs lower-level California teams (Big West., WCC, MWC). Same as always
10 conference home games, same as before, just different teams for 7 of them.
3 conference road games vs USC, Washington, Oregon same as always.

So it's 10 different games... 7 road conference, 3 road OOC. But they played away from home vs Illinois and Maryland LAST YEAR; and conference road vs Arizona and Stanford. So those just switch columns.

Now you're down to six conference road games and one OOC game.
Nebraska and Iowa are about the same distance as Washington St
Last year they played OOC Kentucky (in NYC) and Baylor, similar to Rutgers and their last OOC game.

Their schedule is gonna be 4 conference road games in "central Big Ten" territory compared to before.


This who concept of "But the travel" is extremely overblown. Arizona State did the math and their travel time to Big 12 schools is an average time of 20 minutes more per flight in the Big 12.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Big Ten and SEC are clearly not interested, so that's all that really matters.

I doubt that the ACC or Big Twelve are interested, either. There are plenty of profitable programs in other sports, but football is the mega moneymaker. Existing conferences aren't going to voluntarily weaken themselves even if they're long-term poaching targets.

 

[GindyDraws]

I mean, they already exist. But the NCAA doesn't really like them.

The Pioneer Football League down in the Football Championship Subdivision is a league that has a bunch of schools that want to play Division I football but do not want to pay scholarships for football, so you see them play in some of the crappiest facilities in the country (especially Valparaiso). It's weird and makes you wonder why the NCAA doesn't just go "either have scholarships or don't bother" since it took years and the HBCUs doing the Celebration Bowl instead to begrudgingly give them a spot in the FCS playoffs.

The NCAA could offer either conferences based on regions or a Conference of Champions, that would be their version of the Premier League. It would be a nightmare, logistically, but it seems to be the end goal for the television networks to prune away the also-ran programs in every major conference, like Washington State.

 

[Voight]

A lot of them likely only exist to cover Title IX.

Then you have sports such as sailing that pretty much exist to appease the upper class folks.

 

[tucker3434]

There's no interest in "Football only conferences" -- even though a ton of schools have been "football only members" of a conference for decades.

The TV deals that are signed for football games INCLUDE all the basketball, the women's basketball and other sports, too. It's just the value of football is higher because it's "event television on Saturday" and not spread out over the entire week, like basketball.

And at the end of the day, it's not the football teams, it's the overall athletics BRANDS, even though most of the brand is the football team.

No one wants to waste the time and energy sorting out a split like that with double the meetings, double the negotiations, double the logistics.

If you separated football and "all other sports" the Big Ten isn't UNDOING their additions. The schools that get invited to other conferences are usually pretty good at both, and in the Big Ten's case... USC football and UCLA basketball. Why wouldn't they want both schools going forward?


Everyone likes to point out the travel distances and how these far-flung conferences are insane.

But the SCHEDULE is the same length for total games every season. They're still playing 30 basketball games. UCLA is gonna play a ridiculously similar schedule in the Big Ten...

7 OOC home games vs lower-level California teams (Big West., WCC, MWC). Same as always
10 conference home games, same as before, just different teams for 7 of them.
3 conference road games vs USC, Washington, Oregon same as always.

So it's 10 different games... 7 road conference, 3 road OOC. But they played away from home vs Illinois and Maryland LAST YEAR; and conference road vs Arizona and Stanford. So those just switch columns.

Now you're down to six conference road games and one OOC game.
Nebraska and Iowa are about the same distance as Washington St
Last year they played OOC Kentucky (in NYC) and Baylor, similar to Rutgers and their last OOC game.

Their schedule is gonna be 4 conference road games in "central Big Ten" territory compared to before.


This who concept of "But the travel" is extremely overblown. Arizona State did the math and their travel time to Big 12 schools is an average time of 20 minutes more per flight in the Big 12.

It wouldn’t apply to the Big10 or SEC where many of the programs are profitable or only in the red my a minimal amount. They can afford the travel. The SEC still has a fairly reasonable footprint at this point anyway. There would be no point.

It could make sense for some of the lower level, former P5 or upper level G5 teams that can’t squeeze into a spot in a future power conference. With the way the Big 10 and 12 have gone national, it’s going to leave some good programs out in the cold without neighbors that fit their profile. It could make sense for some of them to form a national best-of-the-rest football & basketball only conference to maximize a tv deal while still saving some money and letting the non-revenue sports ride the bus locally.

 

[KevFu]

I mean, they already exist. But the NCAA doesn't really like them.

The Pioneer Football League down in the Football Championship Subdivision is a league that has a bunch of schools that want to play Division I football but do not want to pay scholarships for football, so you see them play in some of the crappiest facilities in the country (especially Valparaiso). It's weird and makes you wonder why the NCAA doesn't just go "either have scholarships or don't bother" since it took years and the HBCUs doing the Celebration Bowl instead to begrudgingly give them a spot in the FCS playoffs.

The NCAA could offer either conferences based on regions or a Conference of Champions, that would be their version of the Premier League. It would be a nightmare, logistically, but it seems to be the end goal for the television networks to prune away the also-ran programs in every major conference, like Washington State.

It exists where schools are in conferences for BASKETBALL as their primary sport, but not everyone in the league HAS football, so the football teams just have to find something that makes sense and work.

Honestly, the FBS vs FCS thing is REALLY DUMB, and it's just the big rich schools trying to bully people out.

The distinctions in college football should be: 63 scholarships (the FCS number) or non-scholarship. And D-II football should be like 35 scholarships and D-III should be none.


The differences between conferences is extraordinarily tiny, except for the TV money... which caused tiny little divisions to grow and grow over 30 years.

If FBS football and FCS football were both 63 scholarships: #1 the recruits would have more power, because more programs would be capable of being GOOD AT FOOTBALL. They can be treated like garbage because of the divide of the P5 vs G5, where they'd rather be gray-shirted at a P5 than be a starter at a G5.

Well, reducing scholarships would have meant 1430 football players getting scholarships at G5 instead of P5, which would make G5 conferences A WHOLE LOT BETTER. And worthy of being on TV. This is why the real root evil in all of conference realignment is ESPN. The picture being painted is that "Schools are chasing money because of greed" when the reality is ESPN is consolidating their assets and paying less schools and telling everyone the others DON'T MATTER.

 

[KevFu]

It could make sense for some of the lower level, former P5 or upper level G5 teams that can’t squeeze into a spot in a future power conference. With the way the Big 10 and 12 have gone national, it’s going to leave some good programs out in the cold without neighbors that fit their profile. It could make sense for some of them to form a national best-of-the-rest football & basketball only conference to maximize a tv deal while still saving some money and letting the non-revenue sports ride the bus locally.

It COULD... but it doesn't make sense for the G5 or non-football simply because the conferences they have are NOT geographically insane like the Big Ten and Big 12 and possibly the ACC.

This is a product of people thinking that ALL of college sports is the Power 5 Conferences. "It's Out of Control" that "these conferences" stretch from New Jersey to Seattle/LA; or from Orlando to Tucson/Salt Lake City. And it IS. But all the other conferences are smaller.

Every G5 conference has a much smaller footprint than the Big Ten/Big 12 and actually makes sense based on "Who's left."

Five conferences span 3+ time zones. Two by choice (Big Ten/Big 12)
The Mountain West is only 3 because Hawaii plays football-only and is in their own time zone.
C-USA because they're the #10 FBS conference and "that's who's left" so they have UTEP/NMSU from the Mountain.
The WAC (non-FBS) because they're the "Who's left from Texas to the Pacific Ocean" conference.

14 Conferences span two-time zones because either they are PEER SCHOOLS (like Northern Illinois in the MAC, or DePaul/Marquette in the Big East, or Saint Louis in the A-10, or the East/West of the Sun Belt)... or just because their members are all near the time zone lines (like Big Sky, OVC, Horizon, Summit). The Big West is only in two because Hawai'i has all their non-football sports playing the cluster of UC and CS schools around LA, which MAKES SENSE.

Eight conferences are in one time zone.


As for the whole "Make the best football conference regardless of location and leave the basketball/other as is..."

Who IS THAT? The vast majority of good G5 football schools are also the good G5 basketball schools. You make the "Best of" football conference and it's "Just add UNLV and Memphis and this is ALSO the best BASKETBALL conference of the G5."

 

[tucker3434]

It COULD... but it doesn't make sense for the G5 or non-football simply because the conferences they have are NOT geographically insane like the Big Ten and Big 12 and possibly the ACC.

This is a product of people thinking that ALL of college sports is the Power 5 Conferences. "It's Out of Control" that "these conferences" stretch from New Jersey to Seattle/LA; or from Orlando to Tucson/Salt Lake City. And it IS. But all the other conferences are smaller.

Every G5 conference has a much smaller footprint than the Big Ten/Big 12 and actually makes sense based on "Who's left."

Five conferences span 3+ time zones. Two by choice (Big Ten/Big 12)
The Mountain West is only 3 because Hawaii plays football-only and is in their own time zone.
C-USA because they're the #10 FBS conference and "that's who's left" so they have UTEP/NMSU from the Mountain.
The WAC (non-FBS) because they're the "Who's left from Texas to the Pacific Ocean" conference.

14 Conferences span two-time zones because either they are PEER SCHOOLS (like Northern Illinois in the MAC, or DePaul/Marquette in the Big East, or Saint Louis in the A-10, or the East/West of the Sun Belt)... or just because their members are all near the time zone lines (like Big Sky, OVC, Horizon, Summit). The Big West is only in two because Hawai'i has all their non-football sports playing the cluster of UC and CS schools around LA, which MAKES SENSE.

Eight conferences are in one time zone.


As for the whole "Make the best football conference regardless of location and leave the basketball/other as is..."

Who IS THAT? The vast majority of good G5 football schools are also the good G5 basketball schools. You make the "Best of" football conference and it's "Just add UNLV and Memphis and this is ALSO the best BASKETBALL conference of the G5."

Geographically sensible conferences is the way it has been. Just seems like that might be ending. We all know the G5 conferences have struggled mightily for TV revenue. Their athletic departments are all in the red. That gap between them and the power conferences is about to get even larger. Those guys aren't going to be able to just stand pat. They can either come up with some creative solutions or become entirely irrelevant. Revenue sport only conferences (I'd keep basketball and football together) might be a way to increase revenues while minimizing some of the other expenses. Also, Wed-Fri games. Lots of those. One of the G5 conferences needs to lock that down.

 

[joelef]

I mean, they already exist. But the NCAA doesn't really like them.

The Pioneer Football League down in the Football Championship Subdivision is a league that has a bunch of schools that want to play Division I football but do not want to pay scholarships for football, so you see them play in some of the crappiest facilities in the country (especially Valparaiso). It's weird and makes you wonder why the NCAA doesn't just go "either have scholarships or don't bother" since it took years and the HBCUs doing the Celebration Bowl instead to begrudgingly give them a spot in the FCS playoffs.

The NCAA could offer either conferences based on regions or a Conference of Champions, that would be their version of the Premier League. It would be a nightmare, logistically, but it seems to be the end goal for the television networks to prune away the also-ran programs in every major conference, like Washington State.

Why not start a non school ship division?

 

[KevFu]

Geographically sensible conferences is the way it has been. Just seems like that might be ending. We all know the G5 conferences have struggled mightily for TV revenue. Their athletic departments are all in the red. That gap between them and the power conferences is about to get even larger. Those guys aren't going to be able to just stand pat. They can either come up with some creative solutions or become entirely irrelevant. Revenue sport only conferences (I'd keep basketball and football together) might be a way to increase revenues while minimizing some of the other expenses. Also, Wed-Fri games. Lots of those. One of the G5 conferences needs to lock that down.

Right. No one is turning down millions of TV dollars because of "Geographically sensible conferences."

The way to get more TV dollars is to APPEAL TO MORE PEOPLE, which you do with geographic diversity. That's why the very first casualty of the "Realignment for TV purposes" was the Southwest Conference, which was ALL TEXAS (and Arkansas). Of course they were going to split up, because adding three teams back then (When no one wanted to go past 12) wasn't going to be a significant addition of TV sets for the SWC, but adding Texas schools to FIVE OTHER CONFERENCES was attractive to them.


The argument that "but all the non-revenue sports being in far-flung conferences is bad" is a valid point, but when you look at the world of non-revenue college sports...

12 non-revenue sports are "Championship Meet Only" sports. Where every school meets in a location ONCE, no head-to-head play (unless you want to). And four of those sports do M/W championship together; and not every team has all 12 of those sports. There's really no ridiculous travel concerns for any of that. Just don't let the coastal teams host unless it's an outdoor winter sport where California weather makes it BETTER for the athletes.

Women's Soccer, Men's Soccer, Baseball and Softball, and men's and women's tennis DON'T play full round-robin schedules of every conference team. Big Ten men's soccer did, because they had nine members (now will have 11). It's 10 games or 8 series in conference play. You schedule the western teams to play each other every year, and drastically reduce the number of far away trips.

Volleyball plays 18-20 matches like basketball. They could use regional conferences and so could baseball/softball because of the large rosters with lots of equipment to reduce travel costs.