NCAA derides California bill to allow athletes income for image/name (SB 206)

[BKIslandersFan]

You know how you justify not paying student athletes? Take money out of it. I have no issues with schools like Harvard and Yale not paying student athletes. Because they treat them as students first.

 

[LeHab]

And 96.3% of all NCAA Basketball Players are getting more compensation from an NCAA program than they are actually worth.

Methodology? Source?

 

[David Dennison]

 

[KevFu]

Methodology? Source?

The post showed the work. That's DI basketball players. Only 3.7% of Division I basketball players go on to earn $35,000 or more in the pros.

 

[KevFu]

You know how you justify not paying student athletes? Take money out of it. I have no issues with schools like Harvard and Yale not paying student athletes. Because they treat them as students first.

Yeah, and for the most part, that's what college athletics actually is. The only place is not are the football and basketball programs at BCS schools -- the schools with massive TV contracts.

The rules the NCAA has in place are rules that make sense: Created to ensure that kids picked schools based on education, not sports, and so every school could only offer the exact same thing: Free school. Of course, those rules were written in the 1930s and then modified as time went on. The ONLY REASON people have an issue with "The NCAA" is because the dollar amounts at BCS schools are so high, it makes you cringe.

Harvard and Yale is a great example... two of the pioneers of college sports. They haven't been relevant in college football for four decades because they don't treat their football programs like "winning at all costs is all that matters." So they've been relegated from the top level of college football to FCS football.

Only 23% of Division I schools (the BCS) are rolling in revenue from big TV contracts and booster donations. These are the programs that will hide child molesters like Penn State, or lie about positive drug tests like Syracuse, or bribe sneaker company executives to steer recruits their way.

By making it the wild west on buying recruits, you're relegating the rest of college sports (78% of Division I) to second-class status so the BCS can run amok. That's where the corruption is. That's where the ungodly spending on facilities and coaches is. Relegating everyone else to a lesser level also destroys the NCAA basketball Tournament.

A better way to fix it would be to address the revenue structure of the CFP and NCAA Tournament that makes these schools behave in such a cut throat fashion and have recruiting wars. Here's an idea... stop handing out the bonus money for making/advancing in the tournaments! Make every member equal share in the postseason tournament revenue! (Obviously cover the expenses of advancing teams -- and PAY FOR THE FAMILIES TO ATTEND).

The CFP pays $386 million to the “Power Five” conferences and only $94 million to non-power five conferences. $48 million is bonus money for making the CFP/NY6 games are on the board.

The entire NCAA Tournament is pay per game for the conference/school.

When the new TV contract kicks in for 2025 they should do this:
Each Division I school gets $2.5 million.
Every Men’s/Women’s team gets travel expenses, including up to $200,000 per game to get the families of the players to the tournament games.
Every NCAA Division I basketball player (M/W) gets $18,000 revenue sharing (not participant in the tourney, all players).

When the money is the same no matter what the result, people won't cheat to get the prize.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yeah, and for the most part, that's what college athletics actually is. The only place is not are the football and basketball programs at BCS schools -- the schools with massive TV contracts.

Except it isn't. Pressuring student athletes to take easy classes to maintain eligibility? Think about how many academic frauds are reported in the news? And that is only ones we KNOW of. Stop pretending that is actually what it is for schools like Alabama and Michigan.

 

[joelef]

Yeah, and for the most part, that's what college athletics actually is. The only place is not are the football and basketball programs at BCS schools -- the schools with massive TV contracts.

The rules the NCAA has in place are rules that make sense: Created to ensure that kids picked schools based on education, not sports, and so every school could only offer the exact same thing: Free school. Of course, those rules were written in the 1930s and then modified as time went on. The ONLY REASON people have an issue with "The NCAA" is because the dollar amounts at BCS schools are so high, it makes you cringe.

Harvard and Yale is a great example... two of the pioneers of college sports. They haven't been relevant in college football for four decades because they don't treat their football programs like "winning at all costs is all that matters." So they've been relegated from the top level of college football to FCS football.

Only 23% of Division I schools (the BCS) are rolling in revenue from big TV contracts and booster donations. These are the programs that will hide child molesters like Penn State, or lie about positive drug tests like Syracuse, or bribe sneaker company executives to steer recruits their way.

By making it the wild west on buying recruits, you're relegating the rest of college sports (78% of Division I) to second-class status so the BCS can run amok. That's where the corruption is. That's where the ungodly spending on facilities and coaches is. Relegating everyone else to a lesser level also destroys the NCAA basketball Tournament.

A better way to fix it would be to address the revenue structure of the CFP and NCAA Tournament that makes these schools behave in such a cut throat fashion and have recruiting wars. Here's an idea... stop handing out the bonus money for making/advancing in the tournaments! Make every member equal share in the postseason tournament revenue! (Obviously cover the expenses of advancing teams -- and PAY FOR THE FAMILIES TO ATTEND).

The CFP pays $386 million to the “Power Five” conferences and only $94 million to non-power five conferences. $48 million is bonus money for making the CFP/NY6 games are on the board.

The entire NCAA Tournament is pay per game for the conference/school.

When the new TV contract kicks in for 2025 they should do this:
Each Division I school gets $2.5 million.
Every Men’s/Women’s team gets travel expenses, including up to $200,000 per game to get the families of the players to the tournament games.
Every NCAA Division I basketball player (M/W) gets $18,000 revenue sharing (not participant in the tourney, all players).

When the money is the same no matter what the result, people won't cheat to get the prize.

No Kevfu the better way to make it is to make all college sports team student run clubs with volunteer coaches played by people already attending the university. Thats true amateurism

 

[mouser]

Scholarship has almost no value. Stop it.

If you’re one of the top couple % of players who are going pro, then the scholarship value is reduced or negligible. If you’re in the 90%+ of student athletes that won’t make a living at pro then the scholarship has tremendous value.

If we should be outraged at anything over the current system it shouldn’t be that player’s aren’t paid. It’s that the schools should be doing more to make sure that the 90%+ have a full opportunity to get a quality education from their scholarship.

There are lots of reasons to dislike the current NCAA system. I personally hate how most of the solutions are to make it more business-like to pay the student athletes, while presumably absolving the schools of their educational mission. The real reform should be focused on making sure the schools are providing a quality education to even the most fringe student athlete on scholarship.

Some changes I would recommend:
- Student athletes shouldn’t be pressured into enrolling in “easier” degree programs to remain eligible so they have more time free to focus on sports and training schedules. If a student wants to pursue a more difficult degree program the athletic department should be mandated to accommodate that.

- Scholarships shouldn’t be revocable unless there’s an egregious transgression by the student athlete. I.e. the scholarship shouldn’t be revocable based on the athletic performance of the student so long as they’re following the academic and sports schedule requirements.

- If a student athlete somehow runs out their 4-5 year scholarship without a degree the school is mandated to cover them with a scholarship until graduation.

- I’m all for some form of cost of living stipends for student athletes. It should be applied equally to all, or proportioned in such a way equivalent to the time investment involved in the particular sport vs being a student. Not the popularity or importance of an individual student athlete.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

If you’re one of the top couple % of players who are going pro, then the scholarship value is reduced or negligible. If you’re in the 90%+ of student athletes that won’t make a living at pro then the scholarship has tremendous value.

If we should be outraged at anything over the current system it shouldn’t be that player’s aren’t paid. It should be that schools should be doing more to make sure that the 90%+ have a full opportunity to get a quality education from their scholarship.

There are lots of reasons to dislike the current NCAA system. I personally hate how most of the solutions are to make it more business-like to pay the student athletes, while presumably absolving the schools of their educational mission. The real reform should be focused on making sure the schools are providing a quality education to even the most fringe student athlete on scholarship.

Some changes I would recommend:
- Student athletes shouldn’t be pressured into enrolling in “easier” degree programs to remain eligible so they have more time free to focus on sports and training schedules. If a student wants to pursue a more difficult degree program the athletic department should be mandated to accommodate that.

- Scholarships shouldn’t be revocable unless there’s an egregious transgression by the student athlete. I.e. the scholarship shouldn’t be revocable based on the athletic performance of the student so long as they’re following the academic and sports schedule requirements.

- I’m all for some form of cost of living stipends for student athletes. It should be applied equally to all, or proportioned in such a way equivalent to the time investment involved in the particular sport vs being a student. Not the popularity or importance of an individual student athlete.

But the problem is the value of scholarship will never equal to the value of the labor these students produce if they play for big college programs.

 

[mouser]

But the problem is the value of scholarship will never equal to the value of the labor these students produce if they play for big college programs.

Collectively or individually? For a smaller % of athletes at the top end it’s a negative return, for the much larger % of student athletes it’s a positive return.

I would be very curious what the median % would be rather then trying to use an average.

 

[KevFu]

Except it isn't. Pressuring student athletes to take easy classes to maintain eligibility? Think about how many academic frauds are reported in the news? And that is only ones we KNOW of. Stop pretending that is actually what it is for schools like Alabama and Michigan.

BCS schools are members of conferences: SEC, Big Ten, Big XII, ACC, Pac-12 and American.

Those schools are only 22% of Division I. But that’s where all the money is. Those are most the schools you’ve heard of. Alabama is in the SEC, Michigan is in the Big Ten.


Those schools have 348 of Division I’s NCAA Reports On Major Violations (5.27 per school).
The rest of DI has combined for 319 (1.11 per school).

11 of 66 BCS programs (17%) are on probation right now.
9 of the other 287 Division I programs are on probation right now (3%)


The money at stake is why schools cheat. But when you start paying athletes, the schools that can’t afford to pay athletes get screwed out of competing at the highest level.

The idea that Alabama and Michigan need to send their kids to class, stop spending hundreds of millions on locker rooms and stadiums, and stop giving coaches 8-figure salaries is correct.

But you don’t solve that by turning recruiting into a bidding war. All your doing is giving the schools that put business first even more of an advantage over the other schools than they already have.

 

[KevFu]

No Kevfu the better way to make it is to make all college sports team student run clubs with volunteer coaches played by people already attending the university. Thats true amateurism

I’m perfectly fine with that, but it won’t happen. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. You can’t make ESPN not want to air the games.

Like I said before, no one has a problem with Little League Baseball.

Little League sells tickets and has a TV contract from ABC/ESPN to pay or travel, uniforms, and orange slices for 10,000+ teams around the world.

NCAA teams operate exactly the same way. Only all the TV money goes to 66 out of 1100 teams, so those teams buy $100-million weight rooms instead of orange slices.

The problem isn’t THE MONEY, the problem is the INEQUITY OF THE MONEY. And that’s not the NCAA’s fault. This all happened because the NCAA LOST A COURT CASE giving the TV rights to the schools.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

BCS schools are members of conferences: SEC, Big Ten, Big XII, ACC, Pac-12 and American.

Those schools are only 22% of Division I. But that’s where all the money is. Those are most the schools you’ve heard of. Alabama is in the SEC, Michigan is in the Big Ten.


Those schools have 348 of Division I’s NCAA Reports On Major Violations (5.27 per school).
The rest of DI has combined for 319 (1.11 per school).

11 of 66 BCS programs (17%) are on probation right now.
9 of the other 287 Division I programs are on probation right now (3%)


The money at stake is why schools cheat. But when you start paying athletes, the schools that can’t afford to pay athletes get screwed out of competing at the highest level.

The idea that Alabama and Michigan need to send their kids to class, stop spending hundreds of millions on locker rooms and stadiums, and stop giving coaches 8-figure salaries is correct.

But you don’t solve that by turning recruiting into a bidding war. All your doing is giving the schools that put business first even more of an advantage over the other schools than they already have.

Again you are acting like inequity in college football and basketball doesn’t already exist. It does. And if these schools can’t afford to pay football players and basketball players...then so what? That’s not my problem.

 

[LadyStanley]

Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski supports California's Fair Pay to Play Act: 'I'm really happy this is happening'
Mike Krzyzewski is happy that California has taken action that will force the NCAA to change its "stagnant" rules.

Coach K supports law

 

[LeHab]

The post showed the work. That's DI basketball players. Only 3.7% of Division I basketball players go on to earn $35,000 or more in the pros.

Ah didn't connect it this way initially. I would prefer to see a comparison of how much NCAA players bring to NCAA vs how much they cost in scholarships and other benefits. There are direct revenues and indirect revenues (public stadium funding...) to support programs.

When some of those college institutions highest paid employee is a sport coach, perhaps there is room to better share wealth.

 

[joelef]

I’m perfectly fine with that, but it won’t happen. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. You can’t make ESPN not want to air the games.

Like I said before, no one has a problem with Little League Baseball.

Little League sells tickets and has a TV contract from ABC/ESPN to pay or travel, uniforms, and orange slices for 10,000+ teams around the world.

NCAA teams operate exactly the same way. Only all the TV money goes to 66 out of 1100 teams, so those teams buy $100-million weight rooms instead of orange slices.

The problem isn’t THE MONEY, the problem is the INEQUITY OF THE MONEY. And that’s not the NCAA’s fault. This all happened because the NCAA LOST A COURT CASE giving the TV rights to the schools.

Little leagues entire missions are about amateur baseball. Colleges are meant for education not running quasi pro teams.

 

[David Dennison]

Ah didn't connect it this way initially. I would prefer to see a comparison of how much NCAA players bring to NCAA vs how much they cost in scholarships and other benefits. There are direct revenues and indirect revenues (public stadium funding...) to support programs.

When some of those college institutions highest paid employee is a sport coach, perhaps there is room to better share wealth.

Highest paid public employees in nearly every state.

 

[KevFu]

Again you are acting like inequity in college football and basketball doesn’t already exist. It does. And if these schools can’t afford to pay football players and basketball players...then so what? That’s not my problem.

You're saying basically saying "The NCAA is failing at it's mission and has become a bunch of greedy scumbags. So instead of succeeding at the mission, change the mission to 'be greedy scumbags.'" The NCAA it's failing its mission because 22% or less of it's members are scumbags. Turning it over to those 22% is like...

"Concussions are a thing in football, so NFL should eliminate targeting, hit to the helmet, late-hit and roughing the passer penalties."

"Can't stop the opiod crisis, they should make Oxy available over the counter."

"People drink, DUI should be legal"

You see the flaw in your argument?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

You're saying basically saying "The NCAA is failing at it's mission and has become a bunch of greedy scumbags. So instead of succeeding at the mission, change the mission to 'be greedy scumbags.'" The NCAA it's failing its mission because 22% or less of it's members are scumbags. Turning it over to those 22% is like...

"Concussions are a thing in football, so NFL should eliminate targeting, hit to the helmet, late-hit and roughing the passer penalties."

"Can't stop the opiod crisis, they should make Oxy available over the counter."

"People drink, DUI should be legal"

You see the flaw in your argument?

Imagine comparing DUI to people trying to get paid for their labor. Talk about flawed argument.

 

[KevFu]

Imagine comparing DUI to people trying to get paid for their labor. Talk about flawed argument.

It doesn't matter which example is used in flawed logic. Flawed logic is flawed logic: "Something Bad is Bad. So let's address the Something Bad in a way that eliminates everything good and keeps only the Something Bad."

These NCAA issue threads come up every couple of months, and posters just keep saying THAT, and it still makes no sense. No one has any argument for the ISSUE, so they argue over how the argument is argued.

It's weird that no one says "There should be total revenue sharing for the NCAA, with the players and the members, so that every athlete doing the same work can get paid what they're worth."

 

[BKIslandersFan]

It doesn't matter which example is used in flawed logic. Flawed logic is flawed logic: "Something Bad is Bad. So let's address the Something Bad in a way that eliminates everything good and keeps only the Something Bad."

These NCAA issue threads come up every couple of months, and posters just keep saying THAT, and it still makes no sense. No one has any argument for the ISSUE, so they argue over how the argument is argued.

It's weird that no one says "There should be total revenue sharing for the NCAA, with the players and the members, so that every athlete doing the same work can get paid what they're worth."

It makes no sense to pay athletes for labor they provide in which schools profit off of?

No one out here saying every schools should be out here paying student athletes. Just the ones that make money off of them.

 

[golfortennis]

Little leagues entire missions are about amateur baseball. Colleges are meant for education not running quasi pro teams.

The older I get, this is where I end up on these discussions. Why are sports tied to schools at all? If the NFL wants football players, then they can run whatever they see fit in order to have a supply of players. But just because a guy can get to a quarterback doesn't mean he should have to go through the charade of a calculus class. The amount of a school's budget in high schools that goes to athletic facilities is quite sickening actually. And the colleges would not see the same level of donations if there wasn't tax benefits to it. Remove the non-profit status of the athletic departments and then let's see what happens.

I know the show Ballers is really out there in its realism, but one good point was made: the NCAA and the whole attitude of "need to go/stay in school" really only applies to two sports, and who are the two sports' athletes primarily?

Recall Kain Colter, Northwestern QB. Think about that, Northwestern. One of the premier schools in the US. Colter wanted to pursue medicine, but he was unable to take the necessary class because it conflicted with football practice. So what gives? If one says "well he took the scholarship and the obligations that go along with it," then, aren't you saying it's a job? If the scholarship is really about attending school, then shouldn't he be able to pursue medicine?

This doesn't even touch on the fact that something like 50% of all students transfer during their undergrad years, but if an athlete wants to transfer, well, there are any number of issues they face.

Or if a musician, or a theatre major, is on a scholarship, and performs outside of school, no one bats an eye at them getting paid. But athletes.... oh no.

 

[David Dennison]

Cap coach salaries, make those guys go to the pros if they want to make millions rather than squeeze public institutions.

 

[golfortennis]

Cap coach salaries, make those guys go to the pros if they want to make millions rather than squeeze public institutions.

The problem is, you have a non-profit entity, which means they need to spend cash. You think those salaries are ridiculous, at least they bring in money. Go look at water polo, tennis and volleyball coaching salaries. They are ridiculous for sports that bring in no money. But when you have so much money coming into a non-profit entity, they need to spend it somewhere.

 

[Kimi]

The problem is, you have a non-profit entity, which means they need to spend cash. You think those salaries are ridiculous, at least they bring in money. Go look at water polo, tennis and volleyball coaching salaries. They are ridiculous for sports that bring in no money. But when you have so much money coming into a non-profit entity, they need to spend it somewhere.

If only they could spend it on the people doing the work to generate it...