NCAA derides California bill to allow athletes income for image/name (SB 206)

[LadyStanley]

And Carolina. (Nevada too)


Paywall

Confusion reigns


Paywall


Getting out of control. Propagating all over.

 

[cutchemist42]

Can the NCAA afford to fight all these states at once?

 

[Hasbro]

So just released that Pennsylvania is now looking at this....dominoes falling?

Hopefully this will be the gun-to-the-head the NCAA needs to start making serious changes.

 

[David Dennison]

Can the NCAA afford to fight all these states at once?

So long as they don't have to pay any players, yes they can afford it.

But I think they are realizing that they are fighting a losing battle. It's better for them to negotiate reforms rather than have the courts tell them what the the rules are going to be. We will see if Emmert is the guy to be the reformer though.

 

[KevFu]

Why do all 353 schools have to be equal? Seems like free market principals that a lot of professors at these schools would be teaching these same athletes.

If someone told me you we have to pay you less than your worth because its not fair to the other businesses that they don't have someone of such good quality you would rightly call bs.

And this isn't even pay - just endorsements.

There's a reason that every pro sport has some form of revenue sharing. This is the number one thing to point to when people talk about paying NCAA athletes. If you set the NHL CBA on Division I athletics, and the average salary of an athlete would be $26,000. Which is about the cost of a scholarship.

Look at all the people quoted in the discussion. There was a popular Twitter thread where someone said "whether you're LeBron James or Mark Titus" and Jay Bilas chimed in with "you mean a guy who won two Big Ten Titles and played in the Final Four, or a guy who never played a second of college basketball?" And Titus had a good laugh over it and cracked wise as well.

LeBron went straight to the NBA, Jay Bilas went to Duke. Mark Titus went to Ohio State. No one ever finds a former Field Hockey player from the America East Conference and asks them how exploited they feel. The only people upset about this issue are guys with pro chances at the richest schools.

It's a non-issue for 99.8% of all Division I athletes, and like 99.999998% of all college athletes. The kids who get to their third day out of college and realize "Oh, if I want to go to the gym today, I have to wash my own gym clothes. This sucks!"


No one says "The athletes should be paid" about Little League baseball, or High School sports, but the business model is EXACTLY THE SAME. The only reason it's a "issue" for the NCAA is because 22% of Division I schools are BCS members where the money in that model is huge. 78% of the Division I schools operate on a shoestring budget like high schools and Little League.


I do agree that athletes should own and be able to profit from the likeness if they create something significantly worthwhile. Mark Titus should have been able to generate revenue off his blog because it was popular. However, when Ohio State already has a problem with local car dealers and tattoo parlors giving the athletes free stuff, you have to create a system around it where players can earn what they deserve from their likeness, and isn't just a recruiting bribe. Because that's exactly what it will be.

 

[KevFu]

Hopefully this will be the gun-to-the-head the NCAA needs to start making serious changes.

This is one of my two major problems with the discussion. "The NCAA model is broken/archaic! We need to blow up the NCAA model!" And replace it with WHAT, exactly? What would actually WORK in the place of amateurism?

Everyone cringes at the huge dollar amounts of new stadiums and locker rooms the BCS builds, the salaries the BCS pays it's football and men's basketball coaches and ADs.

And the solution is to let the schools that make us cringe spend more, and lure recruits directly with cash!??!

 

[Hasbro]

This is one of my two major problems with the discussion. "The NCAA model is broken/archaic! We need to blow up the NCAA model!" And replace it with WHAT, exactly? What would actually WORK in the place of amateurism?

I worked for my university when I was a student, why shouldn't football be treated as a student job?

 

[gstommylee]

I worked for my university when I was a student, why shouldn't football be treated as a student job?

College sports players are already getting a scholarship why would they get compensated double.

 

[YEM]

This is one of my two major problems with the discussion. "The NCAA model is broken/archaic! We need to blow up the NCAA model!" And replace it with WHAT, exactly? What would actually WORK in the place of amateurism?

there have been several [if not dozens upon dozens] of writers/scholars/commentators who have suggested changes/new models. Just a little googling will give you many different ideas, if you don't want to wade through a mass of scholarly papers out there like this 68 page beast: https://www.gwlr.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/83-Geo-Wash-L-Rev-761.pdf

 

[Hasbro]

College sports players are already getting a scholarship why would they get compensated double.

Walk ons don't.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

College sports players are already getting a scholarship why would they get compensated double.

Scholarships are worthless. Aside from boarding everything else are expenses that schools would have had to pay regardless. Stop overvaluing them.

 

[David Dennison]

Scholarships are worthless. Aside from boarding everything else are expenses that schools would have had to pay regardless. Stop overvaluing them.

Well, not necessarily worthless, but the true cost to the University is far less than the sticker price. Not to mention the poor graduation rates among FB/BB players, and colleges steering those athletes to less desirable degrees like athletic sciences or communications so they can more easily handle the workload of being a full time student and athlete.

 

[David Dennison]

College sports players are already getting a scholarship why would they get compensated double.

My company pays me a salary as well as pays my health insurance and funds my 401k, so I am compensated 3 times?

 

[gstommylee]

My company pays me a salary as well as pays my health insurance and funds my 401k, so I am compensated 3 times?

My point if players that are on scholarships get paid to play then they should be paying for their education.

 

[David Dennison]

My point if players that are on scholarships get paid to play then they should be paying for their education.

...okay? At that point you are just moving numbers around, like there is no difference between a player getting paid 50k and paying 30k for school and just netting the two and paying the player 20k and giving them free college. But arbitrary rules like that are the NCAAs wheelhouse, so you might just be the next NCAA CEO.

 

[Hivemind]

It's still dumb because you have to create rules for a level playing field of 353 Division I schools, covering 88 different sports (while abiding by Title IX).

The idea that USC wouldn't line up boosters who owned businesses to sign EVERY FOOTBALL RECRUIT up to endorsement contracts so USC can basically bribe recruits into picking USC is pure madness. It's going to happen and it can't be policed. And California is saying "That's okay."

You're right. USC should be capped at lining up boosters to pay for a $3.2M coaching salary, multi-million dollar athletic facilities, and celebrity access in hopes of luring every recruit. That seems totally more reasonable.

 

[Hivemind]

College sports players are already getting a scholarship why would they get compensated double.

The scholarship is "payment" for playing a sport (it really isn't, but we'll set aside that conversation for later)
Endorsements are payments for the use of your likeness to sell a product.

They aren't "getting paid twice." They are getting paid for two different things

 

[KevFu]

I worked for my university when I was a student, why shouldn't football be treated as a student job?

It is. The students work 20 hours a week for a scholarship.

This whole topic boils down to:
1. The NCAA rules look strict and exploitative when viewed from the perspective of “Elite futire Pros who can't get paid in college.”
2. The purpose of those rules are for fair recruiting, so colleges can't bribe players; so that every school can only offer the same thing, which allows students to pick a college based on academics and not the sports team (hahaha).
3. Most people are very dumb on this topic, because they think the individual players have a market value greater than a scholarship. They don't.

- 51 college players were taken in the NBA Draft in 2018, then another 32 guys got two-way G-League deals ($77,500).

What’s the next group down? The G-League one-way contract is $35,000 a year. The average G-League attendance is 2,346.

Ismael Sanogo plays for the Long Island Nets, making $35,000 a year, and playing in front of almost exactly the league average attendance.

Ismael Sanogo was a scholarship player at Seton Hall. His $39,258 tuition was paid for and he played in front of 7,953 per game in 2017-18.

The value of this kid’s game is about the same in compensation, but the interest in the Long Island Nets/G-League brand is 1/3 the interest in the Seton Hall/Big East Brand.

So 1.8% of the NCAA scholarship players are getting less compensation during their NCAA years than they would afterwards (two-way or NBA deals). And 1.9% are getting basically equal worth in school as they would in the G-League.

And 96.3% of all NCAA Basketball Players are getting more compensation from an NCAA program than they are actually worth.

Now, please tell me why this system is broken? Because 80 outliers volunteer to be under-compensated?

 

[KevFu]

You're right. USC should be capped at lining up boosters to pay for a $3.2M coaching salary, multi-million dollar athletic facilities, and celebrity access in hopes of luring every recruit. That seems totally more reasonable.

Again, the argument of "This aspect is cringe-worthy, so let's blow up everything and legalize the things we abhor" makes no sense.

It's funny how no one ever points to the shadiness of someone outside the BCS as "what's wrong with college athletics." It's only programs with TV revenue checks in eight figures. There's so much money at stake for 65 out of 353 schools that they give $5 million contracts to coaches, build $100 million locker rooms and spend millions on recruiting wars. They also "grayshirt" kids who dream of playing for them, or run off the bottom half of their roster after they scholarship restrictions for cheating.

Meanwhile, the other 278 schools, few of whom have any kind of violations are now facing a "We basically have to go undefeated to make the NCAA Tournament" as the BCS purposely tries to squeeze them out to collect more money.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

It is. The students work 20 hours a week for a scholarship.

This whole topic boils down to:
1. The NCAA rules look strict and exploitative when viewed from the perspective of “Elite futire Pros who can't get paid in college.”
2. The purpose of those rules are for fair recruiting, so colleges can't bribe players; so that every school can only offer the same thing, which allows students to pick a college based on academics and not the sports team (hahaha).
3. Most people are very dumb on this topic, because they think the individual players have a market value greater than a scholarship. They don't.

- 51 college players were taken in the NBA Draft in 2018, then another 32 guys got two-way G-League deals ($77,500).

What’s the next group down? The G-League one-way contract is $35,000 a year. The average G-League attendance is 2,346.

Ismael Sanogo plays for the Long Island Nets, making $35,000 a year, and playing in front of almost exactly the league average attendance.

Ismael Sanogo was a scholarship player at Seton Hall. His $39,258 tuition was paid for and he played in front of 7,953 per game in 2017-18.

The value of this kid’s game is about the same in compensation, but the interest in the Long Island Nets/G-League brand is 1/3 the interest in the Seton Hall/Big East Brand.

So 1.8% of the NCAA scholarship players are getting less compensation during their NCAA years than they would afterwards (two-way or NBA deals). And 1.9% are getting basically equal worth in school as they would in the G-League.

And 96.3% of all NCAA Basketball Players are getting more compensation from an NCAA program than they are actually worth.

Now, please tell me why this system is broken? Because 80 outliers volunteer to be under-compensated?

Scholarship has almost no value. Stop it.

 

[David Dennison]

Again, the argument of "This aspect is cringe-worthy, so let's blow up everything and legalize the things we abhor" makes no sense.

It's funny how no one ever points to the shadiness of someone outside the BCS as "what's wrong with college athletics." It's only programs with TV revenue checks in eight figures. There's so much money at stake for 65 out of 353 schools that they give $5 million contracts to coaches, build $100 million locker rooms and spend millions on recruiting wars. They also "grayshirt" kids who dream of playing for them, or run off the bottom half of their roster after they scholarship restrictions for cheating.

Meanwhile, the other 278 schools, few of whom have any kind of violations are now facing a "We basically have to go undefeated to make the NCAA Tournament" as the BCS purposely tries to squeeze them out to collect more money.

You are right, D-I sports is a money loser for a lot of schools (at least on paper). That's why I can live with some contraction, fewer D-I teams, less watered down talent. Teams won't go away, just to D-2 or 3 or NAIA.

 

[Hivemind]

Again, the argument of "This aspect is cringe-worthy, so let's blow up everything and legalize the things we abhor" makes no sense.

Legalize things who abhors? I don't abhor the people who make money for D1 football and basketball getting paid.

It's funny how no one ever points to the shadiness of someone outside the BCS as "what's wrong with college athletics." It's only programs with TV revenue checks in eight figures. There's so much money at stake for 65 out of 353 schools that they give $5 million contracts to coaches, build $100 million locker rooms and spend millions on recruiting wars. They also "grayshirt" kids who dream of playing for them, or run off the bottom half of their roster after they scholarship restrictions for cheating.

Meanwhile, the other 278 schools, few of whom have any kind of violations are now facing a "We basically have to go undefeated to make the NCAA Tournament" as the BCS purposely tries to squeeze them out to collect more money.

This is a complete non-sequitur, but okay.

 

[joelef]

Again, the argument of "This aspect is cringe-worthy, so let's blow up everything and legalize the things we abhor" makes no sense.

It's funny how no one ever points to the shadiness of someone outside the BCS as "what's wrong with college athletics." It's only programs with TV revenue checks in eight figures. There's so much money at stake for 65 out of 353 schools that they give $5 million contracts to coaches, build $100 million locker rooms and spend millions on recruiting wars. They also "grayshirt" kids who dream of playing for them, or run off the bottom half of their roster after they scholarship restrictions for cheating.

Meanwhile, the other 278 schools, few of whom have any kind of violations are now facing a "We basically have to go undefeated to make the NCAA Tournament" as the BCS purposely tries to squeeze them out to collect more money.

so then why should coaches be making millions and have pro style facilities?

 

[JETZZZ]

so then why should coaches be making millions and have pro style facilities?

Cause they are faculty, not students, i guess. (Usually the highest payed faculty members too?)
Maybe just make NCAA football players faculty members, not students.
That way, the D1 football schools basically form a professional minor league, where they pay their players with real money instead of with questionable degrees that may not be worth anything in the end.
If I was a star high school athlete being recruited by colleges to play D1 football, Id rather collect a nice salary and endorsement deals as a "college faculty member" for 4 years.
Playing as an "amateur student athlete" who doesn't have the rights to his name and appearance, just for some Swahili classes and a useless degree seems a little fishy by comparison.

 

[RaginRonic]

Who cares what the NCAA wants here?

If they go broke, screw them....they go broke. It's what they get for stiffing their students.

=P