Ncaa/chl ?

[MN_Gopher]

Yeah yeah i know its always brought up. But there somthing i never get a good answer on.

Using Mueller and Towes as my examples. Both about the same age, 15 days apart. Mueller 6'2 and 204, Towes 6'1 and 180. So simular builds, Towes needs to fill out a bit more. Both centers. Both projected top 3-6 picks.

Towes plays in the NCAA and has a line of 28 games playes with 18 points. Mueller plays in the WHL and has a line of 42 points in 36 games played. Towes is tied for 5th on his team in scoring. Mueller is third but if he played as many games and at his current pace would be leading the team in points.

So my question is when people say the CHL is tougher, more physical and better league what are they basing it on. It seems to be easier to score in the CHL. I would attribute scoring to open play not tight checking, physical play and a "tough game". No question the CHL puts out better players. But when Matt Foy can muster up 24 points in 31 games in the NCAA and one year later turn it into 132 points in 68 games, what happened? Putting who puts out who aside, i'll consede that to the obvious. Why is the CHL supposed to be so far superior?

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[missinthejets]

No question the CHL puts out better players.

you answered your own question there. If the CHL puts out the best players, then comparing the CHL to NCAA is like comparing the NHL to the european elite leagues.

 

[Chrisd]

CHL puts out better players, not cuz it's better then the NCAA, but because canada has an amazing player base to draw from.

NCAA is reall coming on strong in the past few years, lots of 1st round picks are coming from there.

Guys like Vanek, parise, Eaves, even Heatley a few years ago and many others ....plus many in the NCAA are making it a very respectable league. It's only gonna get better and better.

Take a team like the gophers, they have 14 drafted guys or so on their team, not many junior clubs can say that.

 

[Chootoi]

i think if you put the average CHL team vs. the average NCAA team, the NCAA would come out on top mainly cause of the average age difference and experience. if you took an all star CHL team vs. an NCAA all star team i think the CHL would win more than the average. i suppose a not-too-bad comparison would be the canada/us WJC games where most of the canadian teams are CHL based and most of the american teams are NCAA based. and the canadian team, for the most part wins more although they are usually close games (now watch someone will look this up and show me that canada has a losing record vs. the us in the last 10 years or somn to completely throw my point out the window )

i think the NCAA develops the better "average player", but the CHL develops the more elite and star players - it's more of a hit or miss league. part of this is also as chrisd mentioned that canada has a huge player base to draw from. the ncaa is becoming a more and more attractive package for even canadian players though, so who's to say in 10-15 years the NCAA will surpass the CHL in developing future NHLers - or at least equal to.

 

[MN_Gopher]

I guess to narrow it down. Why is a guy Mueller having more success in the WHL than Towes in the NCAA when both are about the same. If their situations were switched i would exept just about the same, Toews having solid junior success and Mueller struggling a bit in college.

 

[Aaron Vickers]

I guess to narrow it down. Why is a guy Mueller having more success in the WHL than Towes in the NCAA when both are about the same. If their situations were switched i would exept just about the same, Toews having solid junior success and Mueller struggling a bit in college.

I think the question should be asked, "Is Mueller having more success than Towes this year?"

I wouldn't necessarily say that is the case. Then again, I wouldn't necessarily argue the opposite either.

 

[thomasincanada]

I think you're comparing apples & oranges here. You want a straightforward answer as to which league is "better" and "more physical" (and from what I've seen from your posts, you want it to be the NCAA). Sorry to disappoint, but you won't ever get one as there is no fair way to compare the leagues.

The CHL is considered "better" by many people simply because it develops more NHL stars and has more raw talent in it at any given time than the NCAA. Does that make it a "better" league? Not necessarily, especially since the CHL players are younger than the NCAA guys on average and quite likely the top end NCAA teams would beat the top end CHL teams. "Better" is just too loose a term to apply to different leagues in different countries whose players are different ages.

The CHL develops more stars than the ECHL (and arguably the AHL as big names often skip the AHL) as well, but that doesn't necessarily make it a "better" league.

 

[Juan]

I think you're comparing apples & oranges here. You want a straightforward answer as to which league is "better" and "more physical" (and from what I've seen from your posts, you want it to be the NCAA). Sorry to disappoint, but you won't ever get one as there is no fair way to compare the leagues.

The CHL is considered "better" by many people simply because it develops more NHL stars and has more raw talent in it at any given time than the NCAA. Does that make it a "better" league? Not necessarily, especially since the CHL players are younger than the NCAA guys on average and quite likely the top end NCAA teams would beat the top end CHL teams. "Better" is just too loose a term to apply to different leagues in different countries whose players are different ages.

The CHL develops more stars than the ECHL (and arguably the AHL as big names often skip the AHL) as well, but that doesn't necessarily make it a "better" league.

I'll be happy to compare apples with apples and assert that Peterborough, London or Kitchener could handle either of the Michigan State or Notre Dame teams I saw in East Lansing last Saturday night.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Let me put this a different way. How is the CHL consdered a tough league, when it seems to be the highest scoring league in the world? Schremp would not put up those numbers in any other league. From what i hear about the CHL is it is hard hitting and you need to play with your up at all times. So why is Schremp not on his butt on every play. And if he is that good, and others like PMB, O'Sullivan. Why do they not translate into the NHL better. Where a guy like AO, put up average numbers in Russia and is putting up way better numbers in the NHL.

Its more of a league question. Going by numbers. The OHL and the Q would seem to be the easiest leagues out there to score in. So what makes them carry the "toughest league" icon?

 

[MN_Gopher]

Is it just players or am i missing something beyond the numbers, that does not have a person name in the answer?

 

[Zine]

The CHL has more pure talent, but the NCAA (upper echelon) is at a slightly higher level simply due to the age difference.

It's evident when you look at how easy it can be for overagers to dominate the CHL. Year in and year out, there's always a bunch of semi-skilled, undrafted overagers that are always at the top of the scoring charts. This year an overager is an '85. The NCAA still has 82-84's playing - and a whole bunch of those legitimate NHL prospects.

In fact, most of the US WJC team were Fr. and So. - and a lot of those guys are still adjusting to the college level.

 

[thomasincanada]

Let me put this a different way. How is the CHL consdered a tough league, when it seems to be the highest scoring league in the world? Schremp would not put up those numbers in any other league. From what i hear about the CHL is it is hard hitting and you need to play with your up at all times. So why is Schremp not on his butt on every play. And if he is that good, and others like PMB, O'Sullivan. Why do they not translate into the NHL better. Where a guy like AO, put up average numbers in Russia and is putting up way better numbers in the NHL.

Its more of a league question. Going by numbers. The OHL and the Q would seem to be the easiest leagues out there to score in. So what makes them carry the "toughest league" icon?

The CHL translates into the NHL probably better than any other league. That doesn't mean they all pan out right off the bat. Sometimes they need a year or two in the AHL to round out development. Sometimes they don't pan out at all. As good as it is for development there will always be guys who don't pan out like we thought. I'm sure we can name players from the NCAA & RSL who don't pan out either.

Many people who talk about how physical the CHL is are talking from a WHL point of view and that league does seem physically hard hitting, even when compared to the OHL & QMJHL. All three are hard hitting leagues, though, with lots of penalties. Also try to remember there are folks here who tend to exaggerate a bit.

As for Ovechkin... Firstly nobody is comparing the CHL to the RSL. The RSL is a highly skilled pro league with men. The RSL is also a lower scoring league than the NHL, at least from my understanding. Not better, but lower scoring. That's probably why he is scoring more in the NHL.

If the NHL is higher scoring than the RSL, or the Olympics is higher scoring then the NHL, does that make them less physical? easier leagues?... Hardly.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

Its hard to compare, because of the age gap. However, im pretty sure that if the CHL teams could keep their players for two more years until they are 20-22, and then played an NCAA top team, they would win. CHL usually produces more talent and stars, although more busts as well (because its such a high scoring league, some guys get overhyped because of their "production".

The CHL is a better development league, and thus is probably the better league, because at the end of the day, the purposes of the NCAA and CHL are to be stepping stones for players to reach the NHL.
The NCAA is getting better though, with more top prospects.

 

[thomasincanada]

It's evident when you look at how easy it can be for overagers to dominate the CHL. Year in and year out, there's always a bunch of semi-skilled, undrafted overagers that are always at the top of the scoring charts.

I'll have to disagree with that. Let's use the OHL as an example. This year there is a grand total of 1 overager in the top 10 scoring, Dylan Hunter, a Buffalo draft pick. Last year there was again only 1 overager in the top 10, but you're right in that he wasn't drafted. Not because of skill, though, but because he was 5'8.

Year in year out I see good overagers, but very rarely are they amongst the top players in the league.

 

[Zine]

I'll have to disagree with that. Let's use the OHL as an example. This year there is a grand total of 1 overager in the top 10 scoring, Dylan Hunter, a Buffalo draft pick. Last year there was again only 1 overager in the top 10, but you're right in that he wasn't drafted. Not because of skill, though, but because he was 5'8.

Year in year out I see good overagers, but very rarely are they amongst the top players in the league.

Actually, for the OHL you're right....as of late.
However, if you go futher back you get 4 overagers in the top 10 in 2004; 3 in 2003; and 5 in 2002. Those are some really disproportionate numbers considering the small amount of overagers in the league.

Right now, 4 of the top 10 in the WHL and 2 of the top 10 in the are Q overagers - half aren't drafted.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

Actually, for the OHL you're right....as of late.
However, if you go futher back you get 4 overagers in the top 10 in 2004; 3 in 2003; and 5 in 2002. Those are some really disproportionate numbers considering the small amount of overagers in the league.

Right now, 4 of the top 10 in the WHL and 2 of the top 10 in the are Q overagers - half aren't drafted.

And most of those guys are small, offensively good, with below average skating and not very physical.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

i think if you put the average CHL team vs. the average NCAA team, the NCAA would come out on top mainly cause of the average age difference and experience. if you took an all star CHL team vs. an NCAA all star team i think the CHL would win more than the average. i suppose a not-too-bad comparison would be the canada/us WJC games where most of the canadian teams are CHL based and most of the american teams are NCAA based. and the canadian team, for the most part wins more although they are usually close games (now watch someone will look this up and show me that canada has a losing record vs. the us in the last 10 years or somn to completely throw my point out the window )

i think the NCAA develops the better "average player", but the CHL develops the more elite and star players - it's more of a hit or miss league. part of this is also as chrisd mentioned that canada has a huge player base to draw from. the ncaa is becoming a more and more attractive package for even canadian players though, so who's to say in 10-15 years the NCAA will surpass the CHL in developing future NHLers - or at least equal to.

Great Post makes perfect sense.

 

[Rookie Chargers]

I guess to narrow it down. Why is a guy Mueller having more success in the WHL than Towes in the NCAA when both are about the same. If their situations were switched i would exept just about the same, Toews having solid junior success and Mueller struggling a bit in college.

I would say the players around them make the difference. I have watched some NCAA games and find a few bad skaters and think of a pick game on a Saturday night. Mind watching junior games one will also find these bad skaters. Are they fewer in the junior leagues?

 

[VOB]

I'll be happy to compare apples with apples and assert that Peterborough, London or Kitchener could handle either of the Michigan State or Notre Dame teams I saw in East Lansing last Saturday night.

The thing you have to understand Juan is that the majority of these posters here have never seen a live CHL game and MN Gopher is one of them. You have and I have and we both see our fair share of college games (I think I see much more than you though) and you are right, Peterborough would easily handle Michigan, Michigan State and just about any other team in the CCHA and give just about any other team in the WCHA a good run for its money. They will never believe you, or me though because they are fixated on their desire to equate the NCAA as the better league.

MNGoph uses players such as Mueller and Toews to make the point that the NCAA must be better because Mueller is averaging over a PPG in the dub and Toews is averaging less in the WCHA. He attributes this to the WHL being more wide open and less physical while the NCAA is more demanding and tougher.

He fails to realize two very important points. One is that Mueller and Toews are different types of players. Mueller is more offensively oriented and currently is a better finisher. Toews is a better all around player whose offensive touch is still developing. That is why Meuller put up three times as many points in the WJC tourney as Toews did. That is why Mueller scored a beauty of a goal against Canada while Toews missed on the few opportunities he generated.

Secondly and more importantly, the CHL is a more wide open (and exciting) game than the NCAA. This does not mean it is less physical though, because as you know Juan, there is far more contact/checking in the CHL than the NCAA. There is far more trapping in the NCAA and systems play rule and those systems are very defensively oriented. So yes, it is harder to score in the NCAA but not because its players are better, bigger or stronger (the exact opposite actually) but rather because the coaches demand the game be played a certain way. The CHL on the other hand encourages players to try things that may cost the team but that is why they are the best developmental league in the world.

The reason for this is simple. There are not enough games in the NCAA to experiment while the CHL season is nearly as long as the NHL one, affording the coaching staff of a CHL team to try and do things that would give a NCAA coaching staff a collective heart attack. This does not mean that CHL coaching staffs do not demand their players to take their defensive responsibilities just as seriously (just ask any member of the Soo Greyhounds under Hartsburg!) as their NCAA counterparts but they also allow them the freedom to try plays that would be a no go in the NCAA.

That is why Juan, you found the Michigan State - Notre Dame series much less exciting than your typical OHL match up ( I know you didn't say that but am I not right?)

Of course I am speaking on the average here and there are some pretty offensive minded NCAA clubs and very defensively oriented CHL ones...but on the average, my assessment rings true.

 

[Hiishawk]

The reasons are threefold- age, age and age. The NCAA has an average age of 21, the CHL is 18. The CHL is the better prospect league and has more top-end talent but eligibility stops at age 19/20. Compare that with playing against pro-aged (20-23) players in the NCAA.

 

[hockeylife]

Juan and VOB my 2 fav posters, I appreciate your words of wisdom.

 

[Juan]

The thing you have to understand Juan is that the majority of these posters here have never seen a live CHL game and MN Gopher is one of them. You have and I have and we both see our fair share of college games (I think I see much more than you though) and you are right, Peterborough would easily handle Michigan, Michigan State and just about any other team in the CCHA and give just about any other team in the WCHA a good run for its money. They will never believe you, or me though because they are fixated on their desire to equate the NCAA as the better league.

MNGoph uses players such as Mueller and Toews to make the point that the NCAA must be better because Mueller is averaging over a PPG in the dub and Toews is averaging less in the WCHA. He attributes this to the WHL being more wide open and less physical while the NCAA is more demanding and tougher.

He fails to realize two very important points. One is that Mueller and Toews are different types of players. Mueller is more offensively oriented and currently is a better finisher. Toews is a better all around player whose offensive touch is still developing. That is why Meuller put up three times as many points in the WJC tourney as Toews did. That is why Mueller scored a beauty of a goal against Canada while Toews missed on the few opportunities he generated.

Secondly and more importantly, the CHL is a more wide open (and exciting) game than the NCAA. This does not mean it is less physical though, because as you know Juan, there is far more contact/checking in the CHL than the NCAA. There is far more trapping in the NCAA and systems play rule and those systems are very defensively oriented. So yes, it is harder to score in the NCAA but not because its players are better, bigger or stronger (the exact opposite actually) but rather because the coaches demand the game be played a certain way. The CHL on the other hand encourages players to try things that may cost the team but that is why they are the best developmental league in the world.

The reason for this is simple. There are not enough games in the NCAA to experiment while the CHL season is nearly as long as the NHL one, affording the coaching staff of a CHL team to try and do things that would give a NCAA coaching staff a collective heart attack. This does not mean that CHL coaching staffs do not demand their players to take their defensive responsibilities just as seriously (just ask any member of the Soo Greyhounds under Hartsburg!) as their NCAA counterparts but they also allow them the freedom to try plays that would be a no go in the NCAA.

That is why Juan, you found the Michigan State - Notre Dame series much less exciting than your typical OHL match up ( I know you didn't say that but am I not right?)

Of course I am speaking on the average here and there are some pretty offensive minded NCAA clubs and very defensively oriented CHL ones...but on the average, my assessment rings true.

Very well said, VOB. I would add that more physical, aggressive, intimidating hockey played by generally larger players without birdcages does not necessarily result in less offensive hockey, if you have more forwards with more high-end skill.

That is what struck me most about the MSU-ND weekend: two big name schools, big name hockey programs, roughly 30 forwards on the rosters between them, and not a single one with what I would call elite, pro-prospect caliber skill. Bryan Lerg is your top forward? Come on.

By the way, Wes O'Neill looks like he has improved very little since I saw him several times in Chatham. Still a weak skater, still soft in his own zone, still jumps up at the wrong times. That's a shame - with the raw tools he had at 14, he might have been something.

Also, the goaltending on both sides was shaky at best, although the dwarf between the pipes for MSU sure was entertaining - even the most routine stop was a sprawling save.

 

[MN_Gopher]

MNGoph uses players such as Mueller and Toews to make the point that the NCAA must be better because Mueller is averaging over a PPG in the dub and Toews is averaging less in the WCHA. He attributes this to the WHL being more wide open and less physical while the NCAA is more demanding and tougher

Ah yes the excuse. Well, well Toews is underdevolped, and he needs more work. excuses excuses excuses. Wa Wa Wa

 

[MN_Gopher]

The thing you have to understand Juan is that the majority of these posters here have never seen a live CHL game and MN Gopher is one of them. You have and I have and we both see our fair share of college games (I think I see much more than you though) and you are right, Peterborough would easily handle Michigan, Michigan State and just about any other team in the CCHA and give just about any other team in the WCHA a good run for its money. They will never believe you, or me though because they are fixated on their desire to equate the NCAA as the better league.

I was unawre that you were tailing my whole life and know when and where and what games and who i have spoken too. I have some very good friends from Duluth and as you know some MN kids do go north. A few from Duluth East went and yes i have actually seen and talked with them. And being that Canada is so far from my home in MN. I can see why you would assume that i have never seen a CHL game. Wait Canada is not that far. And oh yeah i have been to some albeit a few junior games.

 

[VOB]

Ah yes the excuse. Well, well Toews is underdevolped, and he needs more work. excuses excuses excuses. Wa Wa Wa

Not excuses....just facts!