International: National Team

[kaz]

Losing and then winning against France 2-0? Sure, I understand some A players were not present but seriously, is the program going in the right direction?

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[Sanderson]

This was virtually a c-team playing early and completely meaningless exhibition games. Beyond that, France has been quite solid in the last few tournaments, beating Switzerland and Russia.

There is absolutely nothing you can garner from these two games about the overall direction the team is heading to.

 

[Maverick41]

This was virtually a c-team playing early and completely meaningless exhibition games. Beyond that, France has been quite solid in the last few tournaments, beating Switzerland and Russia.

There is absolutely nothing you can garner from these two games about the overall direction the team is heading to.

Agreed. France has been doing pretty well in this last few years. I have been underestimating them for a while, but they have been improving constantly.

 

[Herman the German]

@ Maverick. Sure other nations are improving but Germany, in my opinion, has been on a downwards trend for quite sometime. Where the number of players, playing in North America has increased, the national program, importantly the senior team, hasn't improved. Losing to France and then winning 2-0 isn't a great accomplishment. What would happen if the German soccer team lost and then barely beat Canada the next day? Just staying in the A group isn't a winning attitude, when will Germany finally wake up and try and win a championship? Changes need to be made. The Swiss made the move. What do you think?

 

[Sanderson]

These were irrelevant exhibition games, they are utterly useless to judge anything, so why are you trying to base anything on them?

There hasn't been a downwards trend, just the normal ups and downs among the group of average nations. Sometimes you have good years, sometimes you have bad ones. You shouldn't forget that it took a miraculously bad WCH for Germany to lose the automatic qualification to the Olympics. And if Switzerland hadn't failed equally, the performance still would have been enough to make it.

It's not like Switzerland has been continously on the way up either. Sure, they had a great tournament in 2013, but that's pretty much it. They were as bad as Germany in 2012 (including a loss against France), got beaten out of a quarterfinal sport in 2011 by Norway (with a loss against them, and only a 1-0 OT win against France as well) and lost against Germany in the quarterfinals in 2010. They also got dropped in the 2014 Olympics by Latvia, thus failing to make the quarterfinals.

Switzerland may perform better against the big teams, and play a better hockey compared to the teams behind them, but the overall results are still not on a different level than the teams that follow.

 

[Maverick41]

@ Maverick. Sure other nations are improving but Germany, in my opinion, has been on a downwards trend for quite sometime. Where the number of players, playing in North America has increased, the national program, importantly the senior team, hasn't improved. Losing to France and then winning 2-0 isn't a great accomplishment. What would happen if the German soccer team lost and then barely beat Canada the next day? Just staying in the A group isn't a winning attitude, when will Germany finally wake up and try and win a championship? Changes need to be made. The Swiss made the move. What do you think?

I don't think Canada in soccer is an equivalent of France in hockey, especially in how they relate to the respective German team, but if the German soccer team would lose one exhibition game against a weaker opponent and then barely beat the same opponent in a second exhibition game, nothing would happen.
It took a really pathetic showing at a European Championship to encourage major changes in German soccer.

And as far a making a move like the Swiss that is simply out of the question, since nobody is going to invest that kind of money in hockey here in Germany. It just won't happen. The only sport that can finance itself here is soccer all the other sports are dependant on government funding and sponsors.
The government is barely willing to maintain the current funding and sponsors do not see enough potential for hockey in Germany to really open their checkbooks, because they cannot see any chance for profit.
They won't make any direct money from sponsoring hockey teams or the hockey federation, and the sport has so little media presence that it isn't watched by enough people to justify the spending of millions.

I would love to see Germany as a country to really embrace hockey and put more effort into its development, but since it won't happen, the best we can hope for right now, is playing at the same level as Norway, Latvia, Austria, Slovenia, France, etc. and occasionally upset one of the top teams.
There have been made a few changes over the last few years, that may help us to close the gap a little, but it will take some more years before we can reap the benefits.

 

[Tronador]

May be, I am wrong, but Germany is in danger to lose the competition against countries such as Denmark and Norway. I am also very impressed by the development of Slovenia. Of course, improving the impact of the DNL sounds supportable, but I would like to see more German prospects in the Swiss, Czech, Swedish and Finnish youth leagues. Is it because teams from those countries are not interested in German players or because young German players are not willing to play there?

 

[Herman the German]

The two games against France are showing a direction. Not qualifying for the olympics is a sign of direction, U-18 getting smoked 9-1 is another sign. Other nations have caught up or have passed Germany. Is it the general opinion in Germany that everything is fine? Ups and downs, sorry, I see more downs. Alot of talent but not enough wins. The only ups Germany will see, are heads looking up, as nations pass by. Finnland at one time wasn't a threat and now?

 

[Sanderson]

The two games against France are showing a direction. Not qualifying for the olympics is a sign of direction, U-18 getting smoked 9-1 is another sign. Other nations have caught up or have passed Germany. Is it the general opinion in Germany that everything is fine? Ups and downs, sorry, I see more downs. Alot of talent but not enough wins. The only ups Germany will see, are heads looking up, as nations pass by. Finnland at one time wasn't a threat and now?

No, they don't show any direction at all. They are meaningless exhibition games. They had these kind of games before every tournament, and never did they hint at anything. Not at the results of the tournament, nor at some sort of mystical "level" the country is supposed to be on.

Not qualifying for the Olympics was a breakdown during a single tournament. Heck, even when they failed at the WCH and lost the automatic qualification, they still managed to beat Russia for the first time in such a tournament ever.

The U-18 has lost with such results in the past as well. That's nothing out of the ordinary. Add to that, youth teams depend a lot on a single crop. If that year had worse players than others, the results will be really bad.

Which nations have caught up or passed Germany that weren't on about the same level anyway?
People were complaining about how Germany had lost contact to Switzerland, only for Switzerland to have a bad string of years while Germany went on it's best stretch in ages. This is true for pretty much every nation. Sometimes Latvia does great, sometimes they suck. Belarus goes up and down, France had a pretty good run in the past, then vanished and is now back on a pretty good level. Denmark has been good for ten years now, yet they didn't qualify for the Olympics either and looked bad in the last WCH as well. Norway did squat at the Olympics and didn't set the world on fire at the last WCH either, yet had a good year prior to that.

Germany isn't going to get passed by anyone. There will be times where similar nations will have a better run, just like there will be times where they have worse runs. Somehow when another country has a good tournament it's proof that they will leave Germany behind soon. Yet when they fail in the years after, no one mentions that.

Finland wasn't a threat?
Where did you come up with that one?
You just proved what I said all along, everyone has their ups and downs. Ignoring the last 20 years, in which Germany was clearly inferior to Finland, you will be hard pressed to find many years in which Germany was able to compete with Finland.

There was a stretch in the 80s where they were shortly on the same level, with a win and a loss in 1984, a tie in '85, a 1-10 loss in '86 and a win and a tie in '87. Moving towards now, there was only one win in the home-WCH in 1993, every other meeting was a loss.

Between 1965 and 1984, Germany managed a win and a tie in 1978, with every other game against Finland being a loss. At times significantly so (3-13).
Germany managed to win twice in the 50s and then had a 4-1 win, a tie, a 3-9 loss, a tie and a 2-1 win going from 1960 to 1964, with the beginning and the end being Olympic tournaments.

If you look at just the Olympics, you get the following results:
1-5 loss in 1952, a 4-1 and a 2-1 win in 60 and 64, a 1-4 loss in 68, a 3-5 loss in 76, an 7-4 win in 84, 0-8 loss in 88, 1-5 loss in 1992, 1-7 in 94, 0-2 in 2006 and 0-5 in 2010.

Finland has been better at hockey since the 1960s, and the only stretch since then where Germany managed to compete with the Finns for more than a year was between 1984 and 1987, where they managed 2 wins, 2 ties and 2 losses.

Choosing a short peak in performance as proof that Finland wasn't a threat to Germany is absurd. Germany only temporarily managed to get to Finland's level, it wasn't a threat to Finland before or afterwards, apart from a very selective few times.
As a matter of fact, the last few years have been the best stretch against Finland since the 80s, with a 0-1 in 2010, a 4-5 shootout loss in 2011 and a 3-4 overtime loss in 2013. The only other time a game against Finland after 1993 didn't end in a big loss was a 2-2 tie in 2003.

There is a whole lot to complain about when it comes to the DEB. But this excessive whining about how Germany is falling behind everyone else holds no truth whatsoever.
In 1999, Germany eaked by Great Britain, got a close win against Slovenia and got wiped the floor with by Denmark and Kazakhstan, all in what was then the so called "B-WM". If Denmark could beat us back then, yet lose more often than not right now, how can they be on their way to pass us?
The fact is, none of the nations are clearly seperating themselves from the rest. They get their best new talent at different times, they have their good stretches and their bad stretches, but no one gets ahead of the other consistantly.

 

[Tronador]

No, they don't show any direction at all. They are meaningless exhibition games. They had these kind of games before every tournament, and never did they hint at anything. Not at the results of the tournament, nor at some sort of mystical "level" the country is supposed to be on.

Not qualifying for the Olympics was a breakdown during a single tournament. Heck, even when they failed at the WCH and lost the automatic qualification, they still managed to beat Russia for the first time in such a tournament ever.

The U-18 has lost with such results in the past as well. That's nothing out of the ordinary. Add to that, youth teams depend a lot on a single crop. If that year had worse players than others, the results will be really bad.

Which nations have caught up or passed Germany that weren't on about the same level anyway?
People were complaining about how Germany had lost contact to Switzerland, only for Switzerland to have a bad string of years while Germany went on it's best stretch in ages. This is true for pretty much every nation. Sometimes Latvia does great, sometimes they suck. Belarus goes up and down, France had a pretty good run in the past, then vanished and is now back on a pretty good level. Denmark has been good for ten years now, yet they didn't qualify for the Olympics either and looked bad in the last WCH as well. Norway did squat at the Olympics and didn't set the world on fire at the last WCH either, yet had a good year prior to that.

Germany isn't going to get passed by anyone. There will be times where similar nations will have a better run, just like there will be times where they have worse runs. Somehow when another country has a good tournament it's proof that they will leave Germany behind soon. Yet when they fail in the years after, no one mentions that.

Finland wasn't a threat?
Where did you come up with that one?
You just proved what I said all along, everyone has their ups and downs. Ignoring the last 20 years, in which Germany was clearly inferior to Finland, you will be hard pressed to find many years in which Germany was able to compete with Finland.

There was a stretch in the 80s where they were shortly on the same level, with a win and a loss in 1984, a tie in '85, a 1-10 loss in '86 and a win and a tie in '87. Moving towards now, there was only one win in the home-WCH in 1993, every other meeting was a loss.

Between 1965 and 1984, Germany managed a win and a tie in 1978, with every other game against Finland being a loss. At times significantly so (3-13).
Germany managed to win twice in the 50s and then had a 4-1 win, a tie, a 3-9 loss, a tie and a 2-1 win going from 1960 to 1964, with the beginning and the end being Olympic tournaments.

If you look at just the Olympics, you get the following results:
1-5 loss in 1952, a 4-1 and a 2-1 win in 60 and 64, a 1-4 loss in 68, a 3-5 loss in 76, an 7-4 win in 84, 0-8 loss in 88, 1-5 loss in 1992, 1-7 in 94, 0-2 in 2006 and 0-5 in 2010.

Finland has been better at hockey since the 1960s, and the only stretch since then where Germany managed to compete with the Finns for more than a year was between 1984 and 1987, where they managed 2 wins, 2 ties and 2 losses.

Choosing a short peak in performance as proof that Finland wasn't a threat to Germany is absurd. Germany only temporarily managed to get to Finland's level, it wasn't a threat to Finland before or afterwards, apart from a very selective few times.
As a matter of fact, the last few years have been the best stretch against Finland since the 80s, with a 0-1 in 2010, a 4-5 shootout loss in 2011 and a 3-4 overtime loss in 2013. The only other time a game against Finland after 1993 didn't end in a big loss was a 2-2 tie in 2003.

There is a whole lot to complain about when it comes to the DEB. But this excessive whining about how Germany is falling behind everyone else holds no truth whatsoever.
In 1999, Germany eaked by Great Britain, got a close win against Slovenia and got wiped the floor with by Denmark and Kazakhstan, all in what was then the so called "B-WM". If Denmark could beat us back then, yet lose more often than not right now, how can they be on their way to pass us?
The fact is, none of the nations are clearly seperating themselves from the rest. They get their best new talent at different times, they have their good stretches and their bad stretches, but no one gets ahead of the other consistantly.

I also don't see it that pessimistic, but concerning Denmark I really expect they will be ahead of Germany. Take a look, how many amazing prospects they have now...Ehlers, Björkstrand, Jensen, Hansen, Bodker, Eller. Similar to Denmark, there should be more German prospects trying to get a spot in the Swedish youth leagues.

 

[kaz]

@ Tronador. I disagree with young german kids playing in sweden or any other country. The DEL or DEB should take a direction where the young players can live, strive in their own country, the other nations do it.

 

[Tronador]

@ Tronador. I disagree with young german kids playing in sweden or any other country. The DEL or DEB should take a direction where the young players can live, strive in their own country, the other nations do it.

But, firstly, there are even no NHL scouts attending DNL games instead of Swedish or Finnish youth leagues, secondly, the DNL cannot really compete with those leagues. Thirdly, beside Düsseldorf, no DEL team currently gives 16/17/18 year old prospects (even Berlin changed their politics) a chance to play professionally. I am not saying, all German prospects should leave Germany, but a few of them more in other European youth leagues could have a huge impact for German hockey.

"the other nations do it" Latvia, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, Denmakr, Slovenia...all of them are sending more and more prospects to Top European Youth Leagues.

 

[kaz]

My belief is the DEB and or the DEL are not doing enough. How can a DEL manager get paid 200,000 euro a year and then give a young player 10.000 a year? Some kids may be forced to leave? There are NHL scouts watching in europe. If you are good, they will find you.

 

[Sanderson]

How can a DEL manager get paid 200,000 euro a year and then give a young player 10.000 a year?

I don't know, works perfectly fine in other sports as well. Would be a bit ridiculous if the guy in charge of it all didn't make significantly more than some young player who hasn't shown anything. In fact, throwing a whole lot of money at a young kid is the best way to ruin his character.

 

[kaz]

@Sanderson. Entry level contracts in the NHL start at a reasonable number, what I am saying, there should be a better pay balance.

 

[Sanderson]

@Sanderson. Entry level contracts in the NHL start at a reasonable number, what I am saying, there should be a better pay balance.

North America has an entirely different league-system, it's simply not comparable. They don't have players coming through the youth-ranks of a team. Beyond that, salary in the AHL on a two-way contract is about 10% of the NHL-salary.

Somehow I doubt that the pay you get as a youngster has all that much to do with how many good players develop. Handball and Basketball don't throw lots of money at young players either. Good Germans make more than enough money. Compared to foreigners with equal skill, they probably get more, as the really good Germans are rare enough that everyone wants to have them.

 

[kaz]

http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/368/IHM368400_76_1_0.pdf

I want to hear your coments. The U-18 playing regulation round to stay in the A group.

 

[Sanderson]

Not too surprising. Out of the four opponents, three were favorites. They didn't fare particularly bad against either of them, on the contrary, they kept the games rather close for the longest time.

The other opponent was Slovakia, and while they did beat them when they had Draisaitl, they easily lost before. This was the one opponent who they might have had a real chance to beat, but a loss is anything but unexpected.

 

[Hanji]

Out of curiosity, who would posters here consider Germany's 6 best forwards, 4 best defencemen to be? Thank you in advance.
Would Gogulla and M. Wolf still be among them?