World Cup: National Team threads #2

[Evilo]

Low is staying per multiple sources now...

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Low is staying per multiple sources now...

Stay until 2022 please.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Of course he wants to stay. Bierhoff's name is so closely tied to Löw that he won't fire him. It'll take a DFB palace coup to get rid of them both at once.

 

[SimpleJack]

Low is staying per multiple sources now...

Maybe 6-0 wasn’t enough. Maybe they needed to concede 7 or 8???

 

[SimpleJack]

Ask yourself this. How many players does Germany have that are in the top five of their position in the world?

The answer is two. It was a lot more in 2014. Of course Germany still has good players. So does Spain, so does Italy, so does Argentina. The question is how good those players are. They aren't world class. Or if you think they are, you have a very loose definition of world class. And I believe Germany is still better than all those countries and should still be good enough to compete for a Euros or World Cup. The coaching is the issue keeping them from good results, but the talent is keeping them from being able to win games in spite of the coaching. They are one of the countries who've been on the downturn with producing talent in the last cycle. I don't know how anyone could doubt this. I named the years. How many players do they have from 1997-2002/3 that look like top level players? Its very few. Much less than some prior age groups.

It’s like you completely ignored my list of examples...

Unless you disagree and think Werner, Havertz, Gnabry, Muller, Reus, Sane, etc. aren’t world class/elite talents...which they certainly are given eye test/production when healthy in recent years...

Muller in particular might be Europe’s best at his position(attacking midfield) the past 18 months when you look at production/results. De Bruyne is the only other at that position that comes close over that time period. And why isn’t arguably the best German not even playing for the team? Low. That’s why.

This idea of a “downturn in talent over the last cycle” is ridiculous. Again...look at how well their U17 and U21 teams have performed over the past 5-6 years. Look at the influx of youth that’s been pumping out of their program. And again...many of those young players possess world class abilities(Gnabry, Sane, Goretzka, Havertz, etc).

 

[robertmac43]

Wow very interesting. Bustos had a hell of a tournament that's for sure.

 

[Albatros]

Gnabry and Werner are two of the most productive(goals and assists) players in all of Europe over the past year+ at club level.

Havertz is a budding young star.

Muller has been one of Europe’s best players for the past season and 1/2 and Low’s continued refusal to include him is mind boggling.

Goretzka is another great young player. Started just about every match for Champions of Europe Bayern. Filling that same role again this season.

Sane also possess world class talent when healthy.

Same can be said about Marco Reus(one of the Bundesligas most productive players when he’s actually on the pitch).

They have plenty of world class talent.

Their struggles have everything to do with Low and his decision making/command of the roster.

While I agree in principle it's also worth looking at those pieces as a sum of parts. It's a lot of depth for particular roles and positions, but putting together a winning XI is not as easy. As crucial as getting rid of Löw and Bierhoff would be at this point, whoever inherits them won't have an easy job either.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Unless you disagree

Yes, I disagree. I think you have a very inflated sense of the ability of your country's players. And youth tournament success means nothing. Look at Nigeria, Ghana, Mexico.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

While I agree in principle it's also worth looking at those pieces as a sum of parts. It's a lot of depth for particular roles and positions, but putting together a winning XI is not as easy. As crucial as getting rid of Löw and Bierhoff would be at this point, whoever inherits them won't have an easy job either.

It's never going to be an easy job because the expectations are so high. It's also obvious that there was always going to be a transitional period with a generational change once the stalwarts that showed up in 2004-2006 retired and the 2010 additions started to get older.

I think the talent coming after those guys has definitely dropped off on the defensive side for sure and at all defensive positions really.

On offense the supply of talent seems fine. Though it needs to be said that much of that talent comes in the form of athletic wingers i.e. the exact type of player England always had an overabundance as well and that seems to have the least impact on a team's actual success.

 

[SimpleJack]

Yes, I disagree. I think you have a very inflated sense of the ability of your country's players. And youth tournament success means nothing. Look at Nigeria, Ghana, Mexico.

Yeah you’re right I’m making up all those goals and assists and minutes logged for some of Europe’s top clubs in my head...I’m just imagining them...

I think you simply haven’t watched these players enough if you’re honestly gonna sit there and disagree that they have world class talent. I mean it’s one thing to say they might have mental weakness at times(like Sane)...but saying the talent/skill isn’t there means you purely haven’t seen enough or don’t know what you’re looking at.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Yeah you’re right I’m making up all those goals and assists and minutes logged for some of Europe’s top clubs in my head...I’m just imagining them...

I think you simply haven’t watched these players enough if you’re honestly gonna sit there and disagree that they have world class talent. I mean it’s one thing to say they might have mental weakness at times(like Sane)...but saying the talent/skill isn’t there means you purely haven’t seen enough or don’t know what you’re looking at.

I didn't say they are bad players. I asked you a question, which you didn't answer. How many of those players are in the top five of their position in the world? To me, thats around the barometer of world class. I don't think there are 15 world class level strikers or 20 world class level wingers. Not every winger or striker who scores or assists a lot is world class, in my opinion, so I'm not arguing against their numbers. They are good players. I think Germany has one of the better teams in the world, but I think its pretty clear that the talent isn't what it was when they were the best team in the world. When they were the best team in the world, they had multiple players who were in the top five of their position in the world.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Wow very interesting. Bustos had a hell of a tournament that's for sure.

Chile is doing the same thing for Sebastian Soto, an American striker whose on loan in the Dutch second division (albeit, he's ripping that league apart and will play a higher levels soon). Chile is in bad need of talented players, which is why they are recruiting dual-national players from other national teams. I saw an article a few weeks back from their media where they admitted that they aren't producing good players anymore, and now must try to convince dual-nationals from other countries to play for them with the guarantee that they'll play a lot because the players developed within Chile aren't very good.

 

[East Coast Bias]

World class is a stupid term that means virtually nothing bc no one has the same definition of it.

 

[robertmac43]

World class is a stupid term that means virtually nothing bc no one has the same definition of it.

It's also tough to take seriously when Reus and Goretzka are considered 'world class'

 

[robertmac43]

I think you simply haven’t watched these players enough if you’re honestly gonna sit there and disagree that they have world class talent

They are not world class.

Many of the names you listed are exceptional players, Muller would be the most world class out of the bunch for me. Sane shows potential but I want to see him do it for sustained period of time. Havertz could also become world class but I think he will end up peaking at great/elite.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Isnt elite another word for world class? If Kai doesnt have the potential to be world class then no player does. There's what one two plaers his age group better right now?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It's also tough to take seriously when Reus and Goretzka are considered 'world class'

Reus isn't world class, never has been. For Goretzka you can make an argument given how key a role he played on the team that just won the Champions League in convincing fashion.

 

[cgf]

It’s like you completely ignored my list of examples...

Unless you disagree and think Werner, Havertz, Gnabry, Muller, Reus, Sane, etc. aren’t world class/elite talents...which they certainly are given eye test/production when healthy in recent years...

Muller in particular might be Europe’s best at his position(attacking midfield) the past 18 months when you look at production/results. De Bruyne is the only other at that position that comes close over that time period. And why isn’t arguably the best German not even playing for the team? Low. That’s why.

This idea of a “downturn in talent over the last cycle” is ridiculous. Again...look at how well their U17 and U21 teams have performed over the past 5-6 years. Look at the influx of youth that’s been pumping out of their program. And again...many of those young players possess world class abilities(Gnabry, Sane, Goretzka, Havertz, etc).

Thomas should try becoming the best Müller to have ever played for Bayern or the NT before we start overhyping him this much... (edit: just realized that I misread your post thinking you were saying that Müller was arguably the best german ever, not currently)

Werner gets a lot more hate than his game warrants, but he's not top 5 at his position. Kimmich is our only outfield player who is absolutely top 5 at his position...though Sanabry are in the conversation for being top 5 at theirs, at least when fit & on form.

And our youth teams most certainly struggled before the recent turnaround. The 97-99 age groups were absolutely awful by our standards and the 2000ers have (thus far) failed to live up to the major hype they won at the youth levels.

 

[cgf]

It's also tough to take seriously when Reus and Goretzka are considered 'world class'

Tbf LeGo could still become world-class in a Ballack/Lampard-esque role...he's just not there yet & has to be allowed to regularly get into goal-scoring positions to make the biggest impact that his talent is capable of.

 

[IHaveNoCreativity]

Chile is doing the same thing for Sebastian Soto, an American striker whose on loan in the Dutch second division (albeit, he's ripping that league apart and will play a higher levels soon). Chile is in bad need of talented players, which is why they are recruiting dual-national players from other national teams. I saw an article a few weeks back from their media where they admitted that they aren't producing good players anymore, and now must try to convince dual-nationals from other countries to play for them with the guarantee that they'll play a lot because the players developed within Chile aren't very good.

How bad is the drop off going to be if they’re plucking from Canada ?

wonder if they’ll go after the other Gutierrez.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Is it a coincidence that Germany lost 6-0 with Kimmich injured? I don’t think that guy would allow his team to lose 6-0.

 

[S E P H]

World class is a stupid term that means virtually nothing bc no one has the same definition of it.

World class is a term that means someone's skill set is high enough that he is known globally.

Is it a coincidence that Germany lost 6-0 with Kimmich injured? I don’t think that guy would allow his team to lose 6-0.

Kimmich is this generations Lahm, who was one of the best fullbacks of all-time after Marcelo. Plus Lahm could've played multiple positions and actually - to me - looked better as a #5. Wish he played there more because I would've easily taken him over Busquets.

 

[HajdukSplit]

Not official until the next FIFA Rankings come out but here are the pots for the World Cup qualifying draw for UEFA on December 7, UEFA will continue with the three matches in an international window for March and September. Qualifying it set to end next November with the playoffs in March 2022. The 10 group winners qualify automatically with the playoffs consisting of the 10 runners-up + 2 highest ranking Nations League group winners who didn't qualify automatically for the final three spots

The Dutch starting winning at the right time and grab the final spot in Pot 1 ahead of the Swiss, Romania's draw at Northern Ireland see them jump into Pot 2 ahead of Russia. Speaking of Russia they are a tricky team in Pot 3 along with Czech Republic, Norway and Hungary, BiH fall all the way to Pot 4 while Andorra sneak into Pot 5

 

[cgf]

World class is a term that means someone's skill set is high enough that he is known globally.


Kimmich is this generations Lahm, who was one of the best fullbacks of all-time after Marcelo. Plus Lahm could've played multiple positions and actually - to me - looked better as a #5. Wish he played there more because I would've easily taken him over Busquets.

FWIW I think Kimmich has already hit a higher level in the midfield than Lahm ever did...though I don't think he'd ever become as good of a FB as Lahm was. So hopefully we see Joshua in the midfield more than we did Lahm.

 

[robertmac43]

Reus isn't world class, never has been. For Goretzka you can make an argument given how key a role he played on the team that just won the Champions League in convincing fashion.

I think that speaks more to Bayern as a team than to Goretzka's individual ability.