Proposal: Nate McKinnon for Auston Matthews

[RadekBong]

Avs ownership has Walmart money. They could buy the Leafs if they wanted to.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the Avs can spend to the same degree as the leafs.

 

[Echo Roku]

Yeah but let's be honest, Avs say no because small markets can't afford a world class player like Matthews.



Please define my agenda, having a side =/= agenda and I'm open to a good argument but failed to read one yet. Lots of boring personal attacks though.

What blatant bait. You go and basically put your agenda on display with all it saltiness then proceed to pretend its some mysterious.

 

[connormcmuffin]

Avs ownership has Walmart money. They could buy the Leafs if they wanted to.

Why don't they spend to the cap then?

 

[Atomos2]

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m neither a fan nor hater of the Avs or Leafs. I tried to make objective assumptions about contracts and cap growth.

I used JT as he’s the latest big money forward to sign a his 1st UFA contract. Tavares reportedly did leave money on the table, but he didn’t give the Leafs that much of a discount, relative to his peers. Kane, Toews, Kopitar, Crosby and Malkin are the only forwards in the league that are currently under their 1st UFA contracts that accounted for a greater percentage of the cap at the time of signing. The likes of Benn, Perry, Stamkos, Getzlaf and Kessel fall underneath Tavares.

If you think MacKinnon goes for the 15% tier, add in an extra mil or so to the final four years of that frame. He still comes out ahead.

Control is a fair point, though. Tavares was the highest profile departure we’ve seen in a half decade plus. I want to see more of that ilk before taking that threat too seriously. That could certainly happen with Karlsson and Panarin looking uncertain.

Yea no worries. I understand you are doing an objective approach and I'm coming at this with a leafs bias. But I do consider my questions legit. And especially when another factor we have ignored is progression. If Mackinnon continues his play like Avs fans say he will, than yes that cap hit becomes higher than Tavares especially after playing at the discount everyone is mentioning for 4 years.

And yes if you take a snapshot at this point in time Mack's contract ends up ahead by accumulating all the years. But the reference point changes year by year so the accumulation of value isn't important. By year 4 of that deal, when Mack's contact is almost up and Matthews is controlled for another 4, I'd easily value Matthews contract more despite Mack's playing for a discount the previous years. Of course that would depend on if Colarado wins a cup during that time. Then I guess the value wouldn't matter.

 

[PensandCaps]

Mack is better, a 100 point player, dragged a bad team to the postseason and will be much cheaper than Matthews in a year.

I don't see why Colorado would even give it one second of thought...too downgrade and get more expensive at the 1C.

 

[connormcmuffin]

Matthews started his NHL career almost a full year (348 days) older than MacKinnon was when he started his, wasn't expected to drag the corpse of Jarome Iginla up and down the ice with him his sophomore year, and plays for one of the best coaches in recent NHL history. But, I'm sure none of that had anything to do with the disparity in production over their first two seasons, right?

Omg the manipulation in this post.

Matthews was just handed the key to a playoff birth with the Leafs coming on a dead last performance and roster of half rookies. Love the 20/20 hindsight and poor Nate stuck with Hall of Famer (he'll be first ballow) Jerome Ignila.

Anyone can just as easily say, 'Auston having to prop up a beer leaguer in Zach (((Hyman)))'.

Typical manipulation but legendary in soft logic.

 

[tucker3434]

Why don't they spend to the cap then?

We did last year.

 

[PensandCaps]

Comparison of their first two seasons:

146GP, 38G, 63A, 101Pts. 5v5P1/60: 1.46
144GP, 74G, 58A, 132Pts. 5v5p1/60: 2.22

I will take the obvious choice.

Wasn't Mack younger though? His whole 1st season was at age 18. While Matthews was 19

 

[connormcmuffin]

Yea no worries. I understand you are doing an objective approach and I'm coming at this with a leafs bias. But I do consider my questions legit. And especially when another factor we have ignored is progression. If Mackinnon continues his play like Avs fans say he will, than yes that cap hit becomes higher than Tavares especially after playing at the discount everyone is mentioning for 4 years.

And yes if you take a snapshot at this point in time Mack's contract ends up ahead by accumulating all the years. But the reference point changes year by year so the accumulation of value isn't important. By year 4 of that deal, when Mack's contact is almost up and Matthews is controlled for another 4, I'd easily value Matthews contract more despite Mack's playing for a discount the previous years. Of course that would depend on if Colarado wins a cup during that time. Then I guess the value wouldn't matter.

If Matthews and MacKinnon were UFAs tomorrow who makes more money?

 

[Echo Roku]

Omg the manipulation in this post.

Typical manipulation but legendary in soft logic.

The hypocrisy is palpable

 

[Echo Roku]

If Matthews and MacKinnon were UFAs tomorrow who makes more money?

MacKinnon. The one with the higher proven ceiling.

Easy.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Why don't they spend to the cap then?

Because that would require replacing guys like Rantanen, Girard, Jost, etc. with more expensive players who aren't nearly as good at hockey.

 

[biotk]

Comparison of their first two seasons:

146GP, 38G, 63A, 101Pts. 5v5P1/60: 1.46
144GP, 74G, 58A, 132Pts. 5v5p1/60: 2.22

I will take the obvious choice.

​

Matthews started his NHL career almost a full year (348 days) older than MacKinnon was when he started his, wasn't expected to drag the corpse of Jarome Iginla up and down the ice with him his sophomore year, and plays for one of the best coaches in recent NHL history. But, I'm sure none of that had anything to do with the disparity in production over their first two seasons, right?

Wasn't Mack younger though? His whole 1st season was at age 18. While Matthews was 19

Good points. Comparison of Matthews' first and second seasons with MacKinnon's second and third seasons:

136GP, 35G, 55A, 90Pts. 5v5P1/60: 1.24
144GP, 74G, 58A, 132Pts. 5v5p1/60: 2.22

As per the usual nonsense about linemates. Iginla led the Avs in points during MacKinnon's second season, including putting up 46 ES points - so it would have more accurate to say that a significantly diminished Iginla had to try to carry a crappy MacKinnon, except that MacKinnon didn't play much with Iginla anyways. He played predominantly with ROR and Landeskog in his second season - both outscored him - they combined for 114 points - MacKinnon had 38. (same as his first season where it was predominantly Landeskog and ROR - both outscored him - they combined for 129). In his 3rd year it was Duchene and Landeskog (again - both outscored him - they combined for 112 points).

Matthews played with Nylander and carried around Hyman - outscoring both in each of his seasons - while missing 20 games in his second season (Nylander and Hyman combined for 89 points in Matthews' first season, and they combined for 101 points in his second).

Matthews carried his line. MacKinnon was the weakest link.
​

 

[VainGretzky]

Avs say no to moving MacKinnon for a 60 point player

 

[Cor]

Matthews is bad but deserves 12.5M IMO

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

MacKinnon. The one with the higher proven ceiling.

Easy.

what has MacKinnon done to prove more?

And you only made the guys point - MacKinnon will make more as of today AND his contract isnt up for another four years. Therefore Matthews has more value in terms of contracts than MacKinnon, which was a lot of Avs fans argument

 

[Puckstuff]

When you're talking about a franchise center; I don't want to much to much stock into contract. You're talking about a player you will have for 15 years and one of the top 3 most valuable assets on the hockey planet.

I think as it stands right now the top 3 most valuable assets in the NHL in order:

1. Connor McDavid, 21
2. Nate Mackinnon, 22
3. Auston Matthews, 20

I'm a leafs fan but despite the 2 extra years of youth; I will go with Mackinnon because of the remarkable season Mackinnon just put up. I always thought Mackinnon could be a top 3 player and I was pretty surprised it took him so long. That said Matthews could easily be #2 in the future; but today it's Mackinnon.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Why don't they spend to the cap then?

We’ve been a cap team for the last like 5 years. But you can push you’re narrative more if you’d like.

 

[Echo Roku]

what has MacKinnon done to prove more?

A Hart worthy season is apparently nothing now. MacKinnon has the ceiling that has been proven to be higher. This is fact. Indisputable. If Matthews wants to demonstrate he has a higher ceiling, he needs to actually show it before anyone would pay him like he has done it before.

And you only made the guys point - MacKinnon will make more as of today AND his contract isnt up for another four years.

No. It was just the question asked.

Therefore Matthews has more value in terms of contracts than MacKinnon, which was a lot of Avs fans argument

Trade value. Yes. By and far MacKinnon's trade value is through the roof compared to Matthews.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

MacKinnon. The one with the higher proven ceiling.

Easy.

what has MacKinnon done to prove more?

And you only made the guys point - MacKinnon will make more as of today AND his contract isnt up for another four years. Therefore Matthews has more value in terms of contracts than MacKinnon, which was a lot of Avs fans argument

 

[Contenderorpretender]

There's a reason MacKinnon has a great contract in comparison to what Mathews will most likely get. The simple reason. He didn't accomplish as much on his elc. Thus Colorado was able to offer fmv based on his production level at the time.

 

[The Abusement Park]

what has MacKinnon done to prove more?

Be a runner up for the Hart? Go PPG in multiple playoffs. Have one of the best nhl seasons in a decade?


Not to disparage Matthews or anything but most the stuff I’ve heard defending him is just wait till he gets more TOI. Just wait will he gets more PP time. A lot of hypotheticals. Not saying he’s a bad player, because obviously he’s great player, but he still has to prove that more ice time or whatever will get him more points. Well see, depending on Mack and Matthews next season will really show who the better player is.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Be a runner up for the Hart? Go PPG in multiple playoffs. Have one of the best nhl seasons in a decade?


Not to disparage Matthews or anything but most the stuff I’ve heard defending him is just wait till he gets more TOI. Just wait will he gets more PP time. A lot of hypotheticals. Not saying he’s a bad player, because obviously he’s great player, but he still has to prove that more ice time or whatever will get him more points. Well see, depending on Mack and Matthews next season will really show who the better player is.

Oh I know hes proved more, it was a bit of a bait question to get the poster I quoted to explain why MacKinnon is worth more today if contracts were given out - and then add four years to that until MacK can even sign one

I should have worded it differently so I appreciate your post and I agree - but I asked the question mainly to get across the point that MacK doesnt have some contract advantage like some Avalanche fans seem to think

 

[Echo Roku]

Oh I know hes proved more, it was a bit of a bait question to get the poster I quoted to explain why MacKinnon is worth more today if contracts were given out - and then add four years to that until MacK can even sign one

I should have worded it differently so I appreciate your post and I agree - but I asked the question mainly to get across the point that MacK doesnt have some contract advantage like some Avalanche fans seem to think

And you failed spectacularly, given you're not even trying to respond to my response.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Oh I know hes proved more, it was a bit of a bait question to get the poster I quoted to explain why MacKinnon is worth more today if contracts were given out - and then add four years to that until MacK can even sign one

I should have worded it differently so I appreciate your post and I agree - but I asked the question mainly to get across the point that MacK doesnt have some contract advantage like some Avalanche fans seem to think

Ahh I see. I mean he’s cheaper now. Obviously locked up for less term than Matthews but is cheaper. There’s pros and cons to both contracts. But with Mack’s contract it gives the Avs tons of flexibility to go for it while he’s on his steal of a contract.

 

[connormcmuffin]

We’ve been a cap team for the last like 5 years. But you can push you’re narrative more if you’d like.

Ok my bad, that hilarious though.

 

[bionic]

How do the leafs know that MacKinnon doesn't go back to being a 50 point player like he was the previous 4 years.
Matthews has proven more at the same age and it would be simply idiotic to make that trade.
Matthews easily

 

[The Abusement Park]

Oh I know hes proved more, it was a bit of a bait question to get the poster I quoted to explain why MacKinnon is worth more today if contracts were given out - and then add four years to that until MacK can even sign one

I should have worded it differently so I appreciate your post and I agree - but I asked the question mainly to get across the point that MacK doesnt have some contract advantage like some Avalanche fans seem to think

Ahh I see. I mean he’s cheaper now. Obviously locked up for less term than Matthews but is cheaper. There’s pros and cons to both contracts. But with Mack’s contract it gives the Avs tons of flexibility to go for it while he’s on his steal of a contract.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Ok my bad, that hilarious though.

Just because you’re at the cap doesn’t mean you’re a good team. Gotta spend that money wisely.