Nashville sale thread--Leipold PULLS OUT of sale, Balsillie's bid OUT

[MAROONSRoad]

Is that 46 million JUST the Predators, or Powers Management as well, because that makes a huge difference, given that all concession revenue, all parking revenue, most merchandising revenue is channeled through Leipold's subsidiary(and as mentioned, part of the purchase price of the team included this entity), Powers Management.

I don't know. That's just the figure reported in Bloomberg. Could it be HRR as defined in the CBA? HRR would include concession, parking, merchandise, luxury suite revenue, etc. allocated to hockey. If it's not the total HRR, Bloomberg would be guilty of careless reporting which is not impossible.

GHOST

 

[Fugu]

Dave Shoalts of the Globe & Mail reports on:

Ticket sales thus far in Hamilton...

By the end of yesterday, Balsillie and company reeled in about $6.25-million in deposits on season tickets and luxury suites at Copps Coliseum in Hamilton.

Sixty of the 70 proposed suites were booked at $5,000 each, according to The Canadian Press, while 4,700 lower-bowl seats went for $1,000 each and about 2,500 upper-bowl seats went for $500 each.

Comment from Buffalo's mgt....

This went over as expected with the NHL, which is vastly less-than-enthused about Balsillie's dealings in Hamilton.

But Larry Quinn, the managing partner of the Buffalo Sabres, who just might resent the Predators' intrusion into his team's territory, was non-plussed about the ticket campaign.

"I know Jim [Balsillie] and I like Jim," Quinn said. "But I don't know what to think. I don't know any of the facts. I want to wait and learn the facts."

Del Biaggio's offer and the difference to Leipold....

If the opposition to Balsillie's bid is as broad as several NHL sources indicated this week, then Leipold has a lot to lose — somewhere in the range of $48-million (U.S.).


This is why it is odd Leipold has not said much since Balsillie's bid was bashed from here to Nashville this week. If Balsillie, the co-CEO of BlackBerry manufacturer Research In Motion, gets turned down, the only visible alternative is William (Boots) Del Biaggio, who dropped out of the bidding at $190-million.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Knoxville has a pretty decent sized hockey program with youth recreational and travel teams, high-school teams, and even a college club team (University of Tennessee - www.icevols.com). The main arena in Knoxville, the IceArium, is undergoing a major renovation that has added an indoor inline hockey rink (first one in the state since the late 90's), indoor soccer rink, and major upgrades to their ice venue (I don't remember if it includes a second sheet or not).

Memphis has a smaller, but dedicated and talented hockey program. One of the main problems in Memphis is that they have no ice...as a matter of fact the Memphis RiverKings of the CHL are located just outside of Memphis in Mississippi which is where people have to trek to play ice hockey in Memphis.

There are multiple outdoor inline hockey rinks in the state in various conditions and with varying participation. As I mentioned above Knoxville is getting an indoor inline facility and that will revive and grow their inline hockey program, but prospects are not as bright in Memphis where they play mostly outdoors with a couple of old roller skating rinks allowing them to play indoors.

Tennessee – 10 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Manitoba - 203 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Alberta – 420 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Minnesota - 511 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Ontario – 898 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

GHOST

 

[Egil]

The NHL can't go and reject Balsille bid and then sell it to a guy who pays WAAY less and who also wants to move the team. It is one thing to sell for less to keep a team somewhere, but I don't think the NHL can cost an owner $50 mil to cherry pick the location of the move.

 

[LeafErikson]

The NHL can't go and reject Balsille bid and then sell it to a guy who pays WAAY less and who also wants to move the team. It is one thing to sell for less to keep a team somewhere, but I don't think the NHL can cost an owner $50 mil to cherry pick the location of the move.

I guess they'd rather the team sell for less, and have them move to (where does he want to move them to, KC, Vegas?), than move them to Ontario, which the NHL, and the BOG, seemingly are dead set against another team in Ontario.

 

[Namso]

so more than 7000 deposits for hamilton in one day. very good.

living in montreal, i can say that people will easily drive one hour in rush hour from west island to go to the bell center. Without rush it probably takes like 30 mins though, so I think Toronto might help Hamilton even in the slightest way. At 40 km away, I dont think its that far.

 

[Seth Lake]

Tennessee – 10 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Manitoba - 203 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Alberta – 420 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Minnesota - 511 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

Ontario – 898 rinks

http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php...sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name

GHOST

Thanks for the numbers. Although I have to ask...how is comparing a single, non-traditional State to three provinces and "The State of Hockey" relevant?

BTW, as for the 10 listed in Nashville. I believe three of those rinks are not open to the public and the one in Gatlinburg is a seasonal outdoor rink that hasn't been around in over a year.

In no way am I trying to say that ice hockey is played more here in TN than in other areas. I'm not crazy and wouldn't ever claim that hockey is even in the top 5 played sports in this state. However, I do claim there is a growing group of players here with a solid base currently and much room to grow.

BTW, there is a new ice and inline rink opening in Hendersonville, TN (a suburb of Nashville) this summer. So that would make the list up to 11 rinks for what it matters.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

What's most impressive is that the most expensive tickets/seats are selling the fastest, i.e., suites, then lower bowl, then upper bow. So much for "lack of corporate support" in the Hamilton area. I suspect Balsillie will send this data off to the Competition Bureau.

GHOST

 

[toastman344*]

No No ...4o Miles away... Toronto to Hamilton...Not Kilometres...But really, Hamilton has a lot of hockey starved population in the surrounding region...that's even closer ...to draw from...A Big Population...So like someone said earlier...in no way is it dependent on the GTA at all ...to fill Copps Coliseum...

Filling Copps every game...would be easy !

 

[Seth Lake]

The TV ratings for playoff games which I previously reported in the TV Ratings thread similarly don’t seem to indicate broad community support.

“Ratings slide: Approximately 13,217 homes in the Nashville television market tuned in to watch Game 1, according to WTVF-5 Program Director Mark Binda. The 1.4 rating was lower than last season's Game 1 rating between the two teams, which hit 2.4 (approximately 22,000 homes).â€

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070413/SPORTS/704130376/1006

GHOST

Ghost,

I believe that the reported number by Binda was discredited a few days later in the Tennessean and we had a whole new thread about it that even you were involved in...

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=370009

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Thanks for the numbers. Although I have to ask...how is comparing a single, non-traditional State to three provinces and "The State of Hockey" relevant?

BTW, as for the 10 listed in Nashville. I believe three of those rinks are not open to the public and the one in Gatlinburg is a seasonal outdoor rink that hasn't been around in over a year.

In no way am I trying to say that ice hockey is played more here in TN than in other areas. I'm not crazy and wouldn't ever claim that hockey is even in the top 5 played sports in this state. However, I do claim there is a growing group of players here with a solid base currently and much room to grow.

BTW, there is a new ice and inline rink opening in Hendersonville, TN (a suburb of Nashville) this summer. So that would make the list up to 11 rinks for what it matters.

SLake, I'm only trying to get the data out there since you brought up the issue of the popularity of playing the game. BTW, I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba which I believe has the most hockey rinks per capita of any 'large' city (i.e., over 500,000 people) in the world and more in absolute terms at 128 rinks than slightly larger cities such as Calgary at 118 and Edmonton at 93. It just another piece of the puzzle and interesting data.

GHOST

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Ghost,

I believe that the reported number by Binda was discredited a few days later in the Tennessean and we had a whole new thread about it that even you were involved in...

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=370009

Thanks for refreshing my memory. What was the conclusion? How many people/households watched the game in your view?

GHOST

 

[Seth Lake]

Thanks for refreshing my memory. What was the conclusion? How many people/households watched the game in your view?

GHOST

I don't think a conclusion was ever reached as to why the numbers were so different, but the fact that the person reporting the initial number worked for the local CBS affiliate and had nothing to do with the broadcast was relatively revealing.

Personally, I came away from it with the thought that the 3.1 rating was significantly higher than the same rating from a season prior for Game 1 and I thought that was a positive statement.

I think we can all agree that a 3.1 rating is far from optimal, but considering the arena was sold out and that the rating was higher than the previous year it could be considered as a positive for the growth of the Nashville market, rather than a negative when compared directly to other markets.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

I don't think a conclusion was ever reached as to why the numbers were so different, but the fact that the person reporting the initial number worked for the local CBS affiliate and had nothing to do with the broadcast was relatively revealing.

Personally, I came away from it with the thought that the 3.1 rating was significantly higher than the same rating from a season prior for Game 1 and I thought that was a positive statement.

I think we can all agree that a 3.1 rating is far from optimal, but considering the arena was sold out and that the rating was higher than the previous year it could be considered as a positive for the growth of the Nashville market, rather than a negative when compared directly to other markets.

Yeah, as you stated even a 3.1 rating is very poor. To put things in perspective, the small market Edmonton Oilers averaged 157,000 viewers for their regional broadcasts last year. For a playoff game featuring the likes of Forsberg et. al. and a 3rd place team the Oilers would likely have a regional audience at least double that.

I'm not here to bash Nashville as a city or Predator fans at all, but you have to look at the cold hard facts: 46 million in revenue where the Cap is higher than that? TV ratings that are a fraction of smaller markets in Canada? 10 hockey rinks in the entire state? It seems like an uphill battle for anyone that would want to invest in an NHL team in Nashville.

GHOST

 

[OLYMPIA STADIUM]

I hope that the NHL vetoes this sale. as much as i dont like the NHL in Nashville i dont want the NHL in Hamilton.

 

[kivaerijo]

Is that 46 million JUST the Predators, or Powers Management as well, because that makes a huge difference, given that all concession revenue, all parking revenue, most merchandising revenue is channeled through Leipold's subsidiary(and as mentioned, part of the purchase price of the team included this entity), Powers Management.

As for the fan support\business support argument, the last I read, Nashville's season ticket base was approaching 10K...of that, about 60 percent is fan tickets(according to Bettman, Poile and Leipold) and 30 is business...leaving much of the lower bowl empty, where normally businesses occupy those seats. In a healthy market, those numbers are transposed. It's the same thing that is hurting Buffalo at the moment(see the recent article\interview with Tom Golisano).

and correct me if i am wrong, but powers management isnt just making money during pred games, but also at every event held at the somet center. that really adds up.

 

[Seth Lake]

and correct me if i am wrong, but powers management isnt just making money during pred games, but also at every event held at the somet center. that really adds up.

Yes, Powers Management runs the day-to-day operations of the Sommet Center and receive many revenue streams from all of the events at the building (including, but not limited to Predators games).

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Yes, Powers Management runs the day-to-day operations of the Sommet Center and receive many revenue streams from all of the events at the building (including, but not limited to Predators games).

So if the Sommet Center is making money from non-hockey streams but losing money on hockey, wouldn't it make sense to ditch the hockey team (40 million or so on salaries and 30 million or so on operational costs)? An AHL team, still very entertaining, would cost a fraction of an NHL team. It could be a good fit.

GHOST

 

[kivaerijo]

So if the Sommet Center is making money from non-hockey streams but losing money on hockey, wouldn't it make sense to ditch the hockey team (40 million or so on salaries and 30 million or so on operational costs)? An AHL team, still very entertaining, would cost a fraction of an NHL team. It could be a good fit.

GHOST

how is the Sommet Center Losing money on hockey games? Powers management is making money hands over fists at hockey games. concessions,parking, etc...
and why would they want to lose 44-50 events a year? thats makes a lot of sense.

from the sound of a lot of fans in the hamilton area, ahl is not that entertaining. few posters have said they dont support the ahl, only the nhl. good support for the sport. i personally go to any hockey event possible, including 5-10 year olds. enjoy watching the game played.

 

[Rob]

What's most impressive is that the most expensive tickets/seats are selling the fastest, i.e., suites, then lower bowl, then upper bow. So much for "lack of corporate support" in the Hamilton area. I suspect Balsillie will send this data off to the Competition Bureau.

GHOST

This can't be happening. According to 'carpenter' the NHL would be a "huge flop" in Hamilton.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

how is the Sommet Center Losing money on hockey games? Powers management is making money hands over fists at hockey games. concessions,parking, etc...
and why would they want to lose 44-50 events a year? thats makes a lot of sense.

from the sound of a lot of fans in the hamilton area, ahl is not that entertaining. few posters have said they dont support the ahl, only the nhl. good support for the sport. i personally go to any hockey event possible, including 5-10 year olds. enjoy watching the game played.

The AHL is a very entertaining league. ECHL teams are also entertaining IMHO. The problem is it's not popular at all in Canada where fans want to see the highest level possible. The AHL Manitoba Moose average about 7,000 per game in Winnipeg but most Winnipeg hockey fans would prefer a WHL junior team. The situation is entirely different in the States. I assume the casual fan in Nashville, not necessarily the HF posters here, would not even notice a difference.

GHOST

 

[Seth Lake]

So if the Sommet Center is making money from non-hockey streams but losing money on hockey, wouldn't it make sense to ditch the hockey team (40 million or so on salaries and 30 million or so on operational costs)? An AHL team, still very entertaining, would cost a fraction of an NHL team. It could be a good fit.

GHOST

Ghost,

As stated above, Powers Management (who runs the Sommet Center) is making a lot of money from the Predators that is not being counted as Predators revenue although Powers Management is a sister company to the Predators and is being sold outright with the Predators.

As for AHL hockey in the Sommet Center...you have got to be kidding me. As a Hartford native who lost the Whalers and then bought season-tickets for the Wolf*Pack...I know that the Sommet Center is too big for the AHL as the HCC is too big for the Wolf*Pack and Copps Coliseum is too big for the Bulldogs. Sure, you might get those big crowds sometimes that fill the place, but those crowds are the exception, not the norm. Furthermore, the travel costs associated with having an AHL team in Nashville would be prohibitive and I don't think the club would be successful. AHL hockey in Nashville would never make money and would lose both the city and whomever comes in to run the Sommet Center millions of dollars.

I think what is being overlooked is that the $238 million purchase price is not only for the Predators, but also for a very profitable company that runs the day to day operations of the Sommet Center.

Powers Management is very profitable and is also solely owned by and is being sold with the Predators (aka Craig Leipold).

 

[MAROONSRoad]

This can't be happening. According to 'carpenter' the NHL would be a "huge flop" in Hamilton.

No that can't be happening if 'carpenter' said it can't? Or can it?

GHOST

 

[Seth Lake]

I assume the casual fan in Nashville, not necessarily the HF posters here, would not even notice a difference.

I beg to differ. I think all of the casual fans would notice, beginning with all the empty seats - as it would be lucky to average Manitoba or Chicago sized crowds for AHL hockey, in addition to the constant changes in player rosters and the relative lack of "polish" that many AHL players have.

Even the "casual fans" in Nashville are not stupid, they are just inexperienced, but used to Nashville Predators NHL hockey.

 

[kivaerijo]

This can't be happening. According to 'carpenter' the NHL would be a "huge flop" in Hamilton.

i think flop is fine with ballsilly. saw on another board, what happens if the team doesnt move there in 09. your looking at easily 20 million dollars to return. do those people get that interest that ballsillie is making on their money in the meantime? doubt it. got to give it to him he is definitely a genious, albeit an evil one.