Nader: deprofessionalize college athletics, get rid of scholarships

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by LadyStanley, Mar 24, 2011.

View Users: View Users
  1. LadyStanley

    LadyStanley RIP Fugu

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    75,351
    Likes Received:
    3,039
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Sin City
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/spo...gn=Feed:+LAT_Sports_Blog+(The+Fabulous+Forum)

    Ralph Nader proposes a return to academics emphasis by removing athletic scholarships. (Only financial need scholarships.)


    While there's a small number (in comparison to other sports) of hockey scholarships, this would be a major shift in recruiting for college (and USHL, other prep schools, USDNTP, etc. that college-bound kids often consider) and might decrease participation, perhaps increasing CHL participation.
     
  2. Retail1LO*

    Retail1LO* Guest

    I personally don't believe in giving scholarships to kids so they can play games. If you want to give an athlete extra, provided they qualified for an academic scholarship, I'm fine with that. I know the money generated by college sports also creates a lot of the money used for academic scholarships....but in the end, I just don't believe someone should be gifted an education opportunity because they can play a game.
     
  3. BigFatCat999

    BigFatCat999 I am a burner account

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2007
    Messages:
    12,738
    Likes Received:
    347
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Campbell, NY
    College sports for the upper end of athletics are cash cows which feed the colleges in the top tier of these athletic programs. Ironic since the most capitalistic way to do it is the way Canada does with the junior system. Sadly both systems have their draw backs.
     
  4. molsonmuscle360

    molsonmuscle360 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    6,587
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Ft. McMurray Ab
    So these schools already make millions of dollars off these kids backs and they want to take away the one thing that helps these kids go there?

    Honestly, this reeks of racism to me. Most of the kids losing scholarships will be young black kids from the inner city who are going to be playing basketball and football at major uni's. It's not gonna affect little Chip Smith that's going to go play hockey at one of the smaller schools like North Dakota or many of the other schools that have hockey programs, because those schools are cheaper to go to.

    But do you think some kid from Detroit, or New Orleans is going to be able to afford his own ride to a school like Florida or Duke? Especially when he HAS to play college ball for a year before he goes pro?

    These kids bring more money into their schools than anyone else, period. They fill football stadiums with 60,000 people, they fill basketball arena's with 35,000. They deserve some sort of compensation for what they are doing.
     
  5. krudmonk

    krudmonk Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    5,509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sannozay
    I think it's more racist to assume that black kids cannot qualify for scholarships on academic criteria alone. I don't think you're saying that, but it can be easily inferred. Athletics are not the only path to success for any particular racial/ethnic group.
     
  6. molsonmuscle360

    molsonmuscle360 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    6,587
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Ft. McMurray Ab
    I'm definitely not saying that...But a majority of kids that are going to qualify for athletic scholarships will not qualify for academic ones because they spend a majority of their time concentrating on athletics and not academics.
     
  7. Dantes19

    Dantes19 Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    Home Page:
  8. lightsout

    lightsout Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    875
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    You do realize that colleges and universities are academic institutions right? There are other pathways that athletes can take other than college if they do not want to have to concentrate on academics. Also NCAA Division III schools already do not offer athletic scholarships.
     
  9. Retail1LO*

    Retail1LO* Guest

    Racism? Last time I checked, young black kids went to school like young white kids. And, provided they get good grades, have access to academic scholarships. To sit there and saying it's racist because it's the primary stream of scholarship dollars for back kids, is doing nothing but admitting that they need to hit the books more. As far as Detroit and New Orleans are concerned, there are white kids living there too...and do you think they're more capable of affording their own ride at a school like Florida or Duke?

    I will agree with you...they do put buts in the seat. It seems like college sports should be run more like a business, and less like a "program"...because that's what it really is. Fact of the matter is...giving these kids scholarships is dirt cheap relative to what you'd have to pay them for the actual money they bring in. I hate the system, but it is what it is.
     
  10. Retail1LO*

    Retail1LO* Guest

    Yeah well...that's the real problem, isn't it? Raising kids in a society where they know that the real pay day isn't from being smart, it's from being able to throw a ball down through a hoop. The fact is, if priorities were in order to begin with, this wouldn't be the case. I have no sympathy for someone that doesn't qualify for an academic scholarship because they, and anyone else around them, put more emphasis on playing a game, than developing skills that would make them more adept at pursuing a career that makes use of the 12+ years of education our taxpayer dollars paid for.
     
  11. HabsByTheBay

    HabsByTheBay Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    54
    Location:
    London
    Then they shouldn't be going to university. That's precisely Nader's point.
     
  12. obsenssive*

    obsenssive* Guest

    In typical pro-institution fashion, you miss the big picture and only look at the individual level. there's a reason why Asian and European Americans proportionally have more formal education and higher incomes than African Americans.

    And you do know that other forms of off-the-books incentives are given to the best athletes in the money-making college sports. It's been corrupted for quite some time now, and only getting worse.
     
  13. sh724

    sh724 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,138
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Missouri
    College is for academics not athletics. Less than 1% of college athletes have a career as a pro athlete, they should be a lot more concerned with academics then with athletics. The obvious reply to this would be to say they cannot afford college without an athletic scholarship but millions and millions of dollars are given away to students, and you can get a student loan from just about any bank in the country. My parents make too much for me to get government money but too little to pay for my college so im stuck with student loans they can be as well if they do not qualify for assistance.

    Then there is all the athletes who are not smart enough to get into college at all but get a spot because they are an athlete while some one who is smart enough does not get in because his/her spot is taken by some one dumb as a rock but can run fast. Athletes should have to meet the same admission standards as all other students with no exceptions. All athletes should be students first and athletes second, and they should not receive any benefits that are not available to the entire student body.

    From 2004-2006 only 20 of 330 D1 schools had a profitable athletic department, that does not include all the money the schools loose in tuition, book, food, lodging, etc. if you add in all that no programs are close to being profitable. Then there is all the cost of athletics that are not included in the athletic budget like the band performing during football games.
     
  14. Retail1LO*

    Retail1LO* Guest

    The big picture isn't lost on me. I was just focussing on the individual level. And yeah...I agree, it's bee corrupted for a very long time.
     
  15. Brodie

    Brodie Marxist-Harbaughist

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    15,096
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Michigan
    well if Ralph Nader proposed it...
     
  16. jkrdevil

    jkrdevil UnRegistered User

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2006
    Messages:
    31,796
    Likes Received:
    444
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Location:
    Maryland
    There is nothing wrong with the professionalization of college sports. They are providing a service for the school (promotion) and in return they get compensated for it (free education). That is fair. If you want to talk about additionally compensating those athletes who drive the revenue (and promote the school more) I'm all years. Or for reforming the NCAA rulebook again I'm all years. Dropping scholarships is counterproductive.

    Honestly at that level of education and that age the emphasis on the responsibility of getting an education has to be on the individual. The college should be there to provide the opportunity, assistance in getting said opportunity, and trying to drive home the importance of said opportunity. If it is blown well then that is on the individual and they have to live with the consequences. Yanking away scholarships won't change this.

    Broader picture this would do more harm than good. It would basically punish the vast majority (like close to 99%) of college athletes that are there for the education.
     
  17. Retail1LO*

    Retail1LO* Guest

    Sure it will. Without scholarships for athletes, half of these clowns wouldn't be there to blow that chance to begin with.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I attended all levels of schooling with the sole purpose of getting an education. I personally got quite irritated when others weren't there for the same, and in the process disrupted my experience. If you're not at school for an education, go elsewhere.

    There are kids going into pro sports straight out of school. If you want to be an athlete, go be an athlete. Don't attend a college for sports under the guise of being a student.

    I guess I like the major junior system Canada has for hockey. If they could develop stuff like that for other sports here in the states, I'd be all for it. Get college to be about academics. Let sports do its own thing.
     
  18. jkrdevil

    jkrdevil UnRegistered User

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2006
    Messages:
    31,796
    Likes Received:
    444
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Location:
    Maryland
    First off they are doing what the vast majority of the general students are there for. Preparing for their profession that they are going in.

    Second we are going to punish the 99% of college athletes who are there for the education because of the less than 1%? That doesn't seem fair Sure the 1% may be the higher profile, but that doesn't change the fact that it is close to being 1%.

    Again the vast majority of college athletes are there for the education. Many of whom probably can't afford to go there (especially at the big schools) even with some financial assistance. And this doesn't mention that all of them through playing their sport are working their ass off for the school.

    College sports are one of the top ways the schools promote themselves. They are also a huge part of creating a community environment around the school, which ends up driving donations from alumni. "Olympic sports" are a big part of this too.

    If you are going to take away scholarships for athletics, you better also take away the free tuition that staff and faculty members get for them and their families.
     
  19. lightsout

    lightsout Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    875
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    Athletes have an equal opportunity to receive an academic scholarship just like any other student at the school. And saying athletes should receive a free education because they promote the school is laughable. What about the students who aren't on an academic scholarship and have completed research under the name of their respective schools? How about the fact that Ivy league and Division III schools don't offer athletic scholarships? Or the athletes who play and don't have an athletic scholarship? The schools must be basically stealing from them.

    I love college sports as much or more than most people, but the idea of athletic scholarships at academic institutions has always been puzzling to me. The fact you mention most of them couldn't afford to go to big schools is ridiculous. I couldn't afford it myself, so I went to a smaller less expensive school.
     
  20. AllByDesign

    AllByDesign Who's this ABD guy??

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,317
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Finance.
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    Nader is a tool that hasn't done anything of any benefit to the United States since the 60's. If this had been a suggestion made by someone of any sort of relevant influence I would have some opinion of the topic. Since the proposed idea is being made by a fringe guy, by even left leaning supporters, it has zero merit.
     
  21. IceAce

    IceAce Strait Trippin'

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    5,164
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    67
    Location:
    Philadelphia

    That's a bit extreme. Despite his failed attempts to run for the Presidency, the guy's done a ton of ground-breaking work for Consumer Advocacy and Environmental Groups in his career. Not saying he should have any input on the NCAA mind you, but the guy's done more than just stop Pintos from exploding. :)
     
  22. KzooShark

    KzooShark Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Nader's point would eliminate hundreds of thousands of scholarships nationwide during a recession with lowered state funding for higher education leading to higher tuition costs.

    I don't think he thought his cunning plan all the way through.
     
  23. sh724

    sh724 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,138
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Missouri
    How does cutting scholarships increase the cost to all students? that makes no sense at all. If several hundred more people are paying for school that is a ton of more money the school will be making. Athletic programs are no where near profitable less than 10% of D1 schools make a profit on athletics and if the athletes paid tuition the majority of that 10% would make more money from tuition then what they make in athletic profit. The 10% also does not consider lost revenue in their budgets so if they calculated how much money they are losing no program in the country would be close to making money. Making athletes pay for school would increase the revenue for over 90% of D1 schools. Since the vast majority of D1 schools are not for profit and government owned the more money the school brings in the more money that is invested back into the school, whether it be better professors, better buildings, more modern science labs, modern computers and software, more scholarships, or lower tuition. If schools cut there entire athletic programs they would be in an extremely better financial situation. It sad that schools cut professors and increase class size but pay coaches millions of dollars a year.

    No business makes more money by giving away their services than charging for their services.

    Any athlete who desires to be a professional is going to play sports while in college whether or not they have to pay for it. Athletic scholarships help a few hundred students at each school, while the same scholarships hurt the education of pretty much every other student.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  24. KzooShark

    KzooShark Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You misread my statement.

    1. Tuition is rising because state governments are slashing education budgets.

    2. Those students on athletic scholarships will then have to pay that tuition. Most cannot.

    3. The # of students going pro in sports through college is incredibly small, and not really pertinent to the overall discussion. In football alone, there are about 23,000 scholarship athletes. There are another 13,000 in men's and women's basketball. And on down the line to sports with even less chance of playing professionally.

    4. I assume that we'll also be eliminating any other kind of non-academic assistance? No more scholarships for playing an instrument or any other form of art. Nothing based on background, race, disability. You're either smart enough to get in, or tough crap.

    It's just weird to hear this from Nader of all people, since it's basically an idea that will screw the little guy overall. Good thing he ceased to be relevant in 2000.
     
  25. sh724

    sh724 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,138
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Missouri
    1.Yes tuition is raising but the more people paying tuition the lower it will cost, all state run schools have a set budget they have to stick to and all expenses have to be approved, they base their cost off of their expenses. If you have a few hundred more people paying tuition then the cost for everyone goes down.

    2. There is millions of dollars in free money for students to get, if they do not qualify they can get student loans. Of the students who graduated with a bachelors degree in 2007 86% had some from of student loan, 61% had loans through the government. Only 39% of graduating students do not get federal student loans so after you take out all academic, need based, and random bs scholarships less than 10% of students can afford college. Private loans are available at pretty much every financial institute in the country and are relatively easy to get. If they cannot figure out how to get money for college when over 90% of their peers can they either do not care enough to try or are not smart enough to be in college and if they still cannot afford a 4 year degree they should go to a junior college for 2 years and drastically cut their cost. Athletes can get loans just like the rest of their classmates.

    3. Exactly less than 1% of students will be professional athletes so why should they get free education because the participate in something that does not directly relate to their adult life.

    4. Students can major in music and art, a music scholarship for some one majoring in music is the same thing as a business scholarship for some one studying accounting. I have never heard of some one majoring in football or basketball. If an athlete decides they want a degree in baseball then and only then should they be able to get a scholarship to play baseball. Any scholarship that is only for people of a specific background or race is extremely discriminatory and should not be allowed, it is against federal law to discriminate based on those things. Doing something to benefit one group of people over an another is discriminating against all other groups of people and therefore is illegal but it is allowed because of how afraid people are to talk about race.

    Anybody who truly has issues with the eliminating of money for students should complain to any member of congress that is supporting drastically cutting the funds for Pell Grants bc their are a lot of them that want to and that will hurt potential students a lot more than athletic scholarships. But sadly people pay more attention to sports then to what their government is doing.
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"