My updated 2012 top 60

pouskin74*

Guest
ok, but IMO it is too early to judge that Nail developed good enough. Ok, maybe he is star at junior level, but what about men? Will he play the same role? What "russian/european" will he bring to NHL when he left native country too early?

All guys I wrote above have a great opportunity to play among men.. the same Swedes, Finns... it is not logical for me to go to CHL.. if he was great player, he would make a roster of NHL team .. he did not need to play CHL. Remember my words... you will see Kuznetsov and Tarasenko.. you will compare them.. IMHO Kuznetsov and Tarasenko will be better like Yakupov.. because they develop at home
just because of that?:laugh:
 

Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,592
609
Martinaise, Revachol
Yakupov could not sign with another team, just learn KHL rule.

Yes, I know so many people who recommend Europeans to stay at home until they are ready. IIHF is one of sources

Teams who want their players to stay.

Ever heard a scout say Euros should always stay? Because there's plenty who say it' a good thing to commit to North America and play in the CHL.
 

pouskin74*

Guest
It is not about 5 TOI with men in Europe... some great guys have heavy TOI in senior league.

It is about developing, about learning european style of game... there are tons of Canadiens who can hit, can play tough game but Canadiens dont have sense of game like Europeans, technique, skating, thinking... look at Forsberg, Jagr, Bure, Fedorov etc..

pure rubbish! Gretzky,Lemieux,Sakic....
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,413
1,272
again:shakehead you better look how good season he had in OHL! and he was pretty good at U18 as well. at the begin he had some problems in there but in the end he was very good again.

I know it very well.. dont worry.
 

NMF78

Registered User
Feb 25, 2010
659
13
Belgium
while i agree mostly with vorky i do think some players might have a style that is more suited for the NA small ice and if there goal is to play in the NHL then maybe coming to NA at an earlier age might benefit them, only time will tell really
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,413
1,272
pure rubbish! Gretzky,Lemieux,Sakic....

LOL, you dont understand what I wrote... just read it again... Were Gretzky,Lemieux,Sakic born in Europe? Did they develop in euro-system of play until they were 16/17? As I know, they did not!!!
It is difference, which you dont (want to) understand...
 

NMF78

Registered User
Feb 25, 2010
659
13
Belgium
LOL, you dont understand what I wrote... just read it again... Were Gretzky,Lemieux,Sakic born in Europe? Did they develop in euro-system of play until they were 16/17? As I know, they did not!!!
It is difference, which you dont (want to) understand...

i think his point was that those players wore very skilled, high hockey iq and grew up in NA etc, while in general a lot of people agree that players who devellop in Europe are somewhat more skilled on average and players in NA more physical perhaps you can't generalise because there are plenty of highly skilled players who developped in NA and vice versa, whats good for some might not be good for someone else....
 

pouskin74*

Guest
LOL, you dont understand what I wrote... just read it again... Were Gretzky,Lemieux,Sakic born in Europe? Did they develop in euro-system of play until they were 16/17? As I know, they did not!!!
It is difference, which you dont (want to) understand...

looks like you dont know how to explain:sarcasm: what is this?--"Canadiens dont have sense of game like Europeans, technique, skating, thinking.."
what was that?
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,413
1,272
i think his point was that those players wore very skilled, high hockey iq and grew up in NA etc, while in general a lot of people agree that players who devellop in Europe are somewhat more skilled on average and players in NA more physical perhaps you can't generalise because there are plenty of highly skilled players who developped in NA and vice versa, whats good for some might not be good for someone else....

I agee with this and I know it. These 3 player were great!! But they developed all they life in NA style of game... not like Europeans who learn something until 17 (they are not developed yet) and suddenly go to NA where they must learn something new (plus different culture, language, no relatives)... it has negative influence for many Europeans players... not everyone but for many.

Give me one European who played CHL for 2-3 years and now is NHL superstar.. not Burmistrov, he is not.
Jagr, Gaborik, Hossa (played CHL after fully development in slovak senior league), Alfredsson, Naslund, Koivu, Sundin, Datsyuk other?

The reason why Slovaks/Czechs leave for playing CHL is that our junior league is crappy, senior league the same.
But Swedes/Finns/ Russians have good conditions for developing.. so there is no reason to go to NA too early.

Just be star in european senior league and after that go to NA.
It is some problem with KHL.. you know it.

BTW I read so many articles that Prucha´s, Artyuchov´s, Radulov´s game has increased (got better) after coming to KHL.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,413
1,272
just one article.. read and think about it!!!

Lener pointed out, exactly 22 players who stayed in Europe to be trained have reached over 1,000 NHL games. One of those players, Daniel Alfredsson, was in the room. The number of CHL-trained European jrs. who’ve reached 1,000 NHL games – ZERO.

Lener’s point was that it’s crucial for European players to learn, train, practice and play in Europe until they are NHL ready. Edmonton’s Magnus Pääjärvi-Svensson is a perfect example of that.

Tommy Boustedt, the Director of Hockey Development for the Swedish Ice Hockey Association agreed with Lener, putting his stamp on some very pointed suggestions – only one foreign-born player should be allowed on any CHL team (currently, two are allowed) and that one player must be 18-or-older.

and you can find many articles about it
 

Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,592
609
Martinaise, Revachol
Running out of arguments?

There are not arguements for the Euros who play in the CHL suck theory.

If you can find me a scout who says no Euro should go to the CHL I'll be surprised.

The only reason people are even trying to say they shouldn't is they want to keep their own talent in their own country, thats fine to think that but to try to say they ruin their careers if they go to the CHL thats hilarious.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,413
1,272
There are not arguements for the Euros who play in the CHL suck theory.

If you can find me a scout who says no Euro should go to the CHL I'll be surprised.

The only reason people are even trying to say they shouldn't is they want to keep their own talent in their own country, thats fine to think that but to try to say they ruin their careers if they go to the CHL thats hilarious.

you dont understand it... did you read this article which I posted above? or other articles...

European national federations want one thing - to develop as many great players as possible. And it is so sad that they lose many talents who come to NA too early. Maybe one player developed good in CHL but 99 will disappear

Give me example of players who played 2-3 years in CHL and after that they were/are NHL superstars - like Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Fedorov, Naslund, Alfredsson, Pallfy, Hossa, Gaborik, Jagr, Hasek are/were... try to write their names.. I am curious
 

Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,592
609
Martinaise, Revachol
you dont understand it... did you read this article which I posted above? or other articles...

European national federations want one thing - to develop as many great players as possible. And it is so sad that they lose many talents who come to NA too early. Maybe one player developed good in CHL but 99 will disappear

Give me example of players who played 2-3 years in CHL and after that they were/are NHL superstars - like Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Fedorov, Naslund, Alfredsson, Pallfy, Hossa, Gaborik, Jagr, Hasek are/were... try to write their names.. I am curious

Just stop. It's getting pathetic what your trying to do. 99% of Euro CHLers don't bust. Thats absurd. A lot then come over weren't that highly regarded in the first place. Theres players who make the right decision to go the CHL and the only people who argue that are people jealous of losing their talent.

Still waiting for you to post a link with a scout who says Euro players shouldn't leave Europe. Are these select fans right and the GMs, Scouts, Agents, Players themselves all wrong?

You act like a tonne of Euros have even came to the CHL anyway, thats not true, its a minority of Euro players anyway, and only recently have the truly top tier players come over. Your making the judgement that they made the mistake based on opinion and not real knowledge. That was truly showed when you said Landeskog made a mistake and I guarentee you won't find a scout who's actually seen him that says that, they'll all say it was a brilliant move and it furthered his career tenfold.

You have an extreme bias here, and its obvious you don't actually know anything about the CHL, you just have a deep resentment that they "steal" your players away.
 

Latex*

Guest
I can actually say that 100% of the Finns that have headed to CHL/North America too early have busted.

Lol
 

Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,592
609
Martinaise, Revachol
I can actually say that 100% of the Finns that have headed to CHL/North America too early have busted.

Lol

I can't even think of any Finns that played in the CHL besides Toni Rajala and he only played in the CHL to try to make the NHL at 20 and that was a longshot even if he stayed in Finland, where he went back to instead of the AHL/ECHL.
 

Latex*

Guest
I can't even think of any Finns that played in the CHL besides Toni Rajala and he only played in the CHL to try to make the NHL at 20 and that was a longshot even if he stayed in Finland, where he went back to instead of the AHL/ECHL.

There's a lot of them:

Mika Partanen
Patrik Parkkonen
Rasmus Rissanen
Masi Marjamäki
Aki Seitsonen

Etc. Etc.

Those just of the top of my head.
 

R S

Registered User
Sep 18, 2006
25,468
10
There's a lot of them:

Mika Partanen
Patrik Parkkonen
Rasmus Rissanen
Masi Marjamäki
Aki Seitsonen

Etc. Etc.

Those just of the top of my head.

I don't get your argument here. You are saying those players are busts? Most of them are only 18-20 years old....
 

Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,592
609
Martinaise, Revachol
There's a lot of them:

Mika Partanen
Patrik Parkkonen
Rasmus Rissanen
Masi Marjamäki
Aki Seitsonen

Etc. Etc.

Those just of the top of my head.

How many of those players had a good chance of making the NHL in the first place even if they stayed?

I don't even know how old those players are, but Finlands a country who hasn't had many top players play in the CHL.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,413
1,272
Prophet of Glennie

You wanted opinion of scout.. ok, read

One of the most respected European based NHL-scouts said this when interviewed for this study:
“In my opinion, the top European leagues have lost in quality in the last years. There is no doubt that this is
because of the stream of players going to North America, where many players do not develop as they become
career minor leaguers.
One ensuing problem is that European prospects have fewer and fewer role models in
the European leagues. I am convinced that this depleting will affect the quality of the European players that the
NHL will recruit in the future.”

more here

An example of this unnecessary makeover is Mikael Andersson, who played 761 NHL games during 15 NHL
seasons from 1985 - 2000. He was drafted in the first round in 1984 out of the Swedish league in an era where
very few Europeans were drafted high.
Andersson was named the best junior player in Sweden in 1984 and whose game was skill, speed and
smartness. Buffalo signed him after only one season in the Swedish top league, at the age of 19 with too little
experience. Five of his first six NHL seasons were split between the NHL and the AHL, playing in 179 minor
league games. After seven seasons, he became an NHL regular, but his game was changed. A naturally gifted
and creative player was now a role player and that kept him in the league for another eight seasons.
Again, there is no crystal ball. But imagine rewinding those years to see what could have happened had
Andersson signed at the age of 22, instead of 19 after another three years in Sweden. He likely would have had
a slightly shorter NHL career but with more ice time and goals - and a higher salary, compensating for the later
NHL debut.
There are more examples with this pattern, but few players show the determination and endurance of
Andersson. In most cases the player, feeling that he can’t play his game, goes home.
Coincidently as Andersson was the best junior forward in Sweden, Calle Johansson was the best junior
defenseman in the country. While Andersson left with only one season’s experience in the Swedish top league,
Johansson stayed for more than three seasons before signing with Buffalo. Johansson is one of only six
Europeans to accumulate 17 seasons and over 1000 NHL-games. Upon retirement he became a scout and is
now coaching in his native Sweden.
“I had enormous use from those extra years I stayed in Sweden,” said Calle when interviewed. “When I came to
Buffalo, I did with a certain confidence and experience. I had a fundament to stand on. I have said it all along
whenever this topic comes up – a player who has accumulated enough skill and maturity in Europe doesn’t need any ‘adjustment’ in the minors to the North American game. And if the player is not ready for the NHL, he should stay at home and develop until he is ready. I am pretty sure that if I had left earlier, I would have been sent to the minors and I am quite sure that my career would have turned out differently.”

source like above

So, give me names of Euro players who played at least 2 years in CHL and after that they were/are NHL superstars..
.
 
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Latex*

Guest
How many of those players had a good chance of making the NHL in the first place even if they stayed?

I don't even know how old those players are, but Finlands a country who hasn't had many top players play in the CHL.

In Finland's case i ment mostly the players that left to the NA not neccesarily CHL.

Tho, none of the Finnish CHL players will ever make it. Rajala regressed ALOT in the WHL and Jyri Niemi saw his promising career go down the drain because he left Finland at the age of 17(16?).

Edit: Marjamäki, Seitsonen and Partanen were seen as very promising prospects before they left.

E2: And Niemi too of course.
 
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Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,592
609
Martinaise, Revachol
IIHF doesn't list the name of the scout they use, and a Euro scout won't have seen a Euro CHLer hardly at all, if at all. The IIHF has their own agenda, they want to see players stay in their respective countries. Theres a bias in that study, and I've already mentioned the only real facts in it are numbers, which don't tell the quality of players who went over in the first place.

Going to the AHL is an NHL teams decision, diffrent from the CHL.

Find me a named scouts opinion, who actually watches the CHL who says that. Find me a scout who says Landeskog made a mistake, Burmistrov made a mistake, ect.
 

R S

Registered User
Sep 18, 2006
25,468
10
Interesting stuff vorky.

If the Avs draft Larsson I want him in the NHL next year, but stuff like that makes you stop and think. Could be better served playing another full season in the SEL? The answer may very well be YES, especially considering how bad the Avs will likely be again next year.
 

scoutman1

Twitter - scoutman33
Feb 19, 2005
3,222
545
www.facebook.com
Prophet of Glennie

You wanted opinion of scout.. ok, read

One of the most respected European based NHL-scouts said this when interviewed for this study:
“In my opinion, the top European leagues have lost in quality in the last years. There is no doubt that this is
because of the stream of players going to North America, where many players do not develop as they become
career minor leaguers.
One ensuing problem is that European prospects have fewer and fewer role models in
the European leagues. I am convinced that this depleting will affect the quality of the European players that the
NHL will recruit in the future.

Im a QMJHL scout in talks right now of moving up to the NHL for next year......I will say right now that being a scout is only an educated opinion on anything of the sport. My take is that moving to the CHL gives the kids the playing time needed, in leagues like sweden, finland, czech etc etc it is not all the U18s and U20s playing together you have the top talent spread out, some are playing U20 Elite, some are playing U18 one league and some play in different parts of the league it is pretty spread out...some of the players who were thought good might not be as good as people think once they play a steady flow of talented depth teams. In the CHL the main players get the playing time which a player might not get in Europe (being a player moves up a level and gets on the 3rd or 4th line for the year playing as a 17 year old in the 19 year old league and players do not improve like that).

I saw above you said Landeskog made a mistake coming to the CHL...How you blow my mind with that comment, he is ranked to go top 3 in the draft, if he played in the main league in sweden, his game would not have shined like he wanted it too, he is not as developed as the men who play thus not making his physical game as intimadating as it is right now, I think if Landeskog played in Europe we should have still had him 1st round but not top 3 overall. Now im not saying every player should come over and it does not make everyone better and ovechkin and malkin did fine staying over then coming to the NHL.....but i will say this, euro players can not play the euro game all there life with the change in game style in the NHL they will have to change and it is worst trying to learn the NHL game when your in the NHL, better doing it in junior and if the players don't pan out in the CHL trust me they would NOT and i do repeat THEY WOULD NOT have survived in the NHL so best the secret came out early before a team wasted a pick on them IMO, becuase if the player was good enough if he can not adjust to a junior league he would not adjust to the NHL.

If the euro players stayed over there they still would not get to play against all the top junior players like in the CHL......such as in sweden Calle Andersson plays U20, Kalle Torniainen plays U18, then even in the J18 leagues there is different divisions like Elit or Allsvenskan...the top talent is so spread out you never get a clear cut what a player is really like and thus is such a farce to the article you just gave to saying that because all the top players are coming CHL there are no rolemodels or the players don't get to play against there good players well they are so spread out it is impossible almost anyways at least in the CHL they are going to play in the top junior league in the world really and they get to play against all the top guys.
 

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