My rankings of Centers by era

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by LapierreSports, Mar 9, 2007.

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  1. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    40-55

    E.Lach
    S.Apps
    B.Cowley
    M.Schmidt
    M.Bentley
    T.Kennedy
    S.Abel
    B.O'Connor
    E.Laprade

    1955-70

    Beliveau
    Mikita
    Richard
    Delvecchio
    Keon
    Ratelle
    Ullman
    Pulford

    70-85

    Esposito
    Clarke
    Trottier
    Dionne
    Perreault
    Lemaire
    Sittler
    Federko*

    82-2000


    Gretzky
    Lemieux
    Messier (lw)
    Yzerman
    Stastny
    Francis
    Hawerchuk
    Lafontaine
    Savard
    Gilmour
    Oates
    Turgeon

    The 90`s

    Gretzky
    Lemieux
    Messier (lw)
    Yzerman
    Sakic (HOF)
    Forsberg (HOF)
    Sundin (HOF)
    Fedorov (HOF)
    Modano (HOF)

    Now

    Crosby
    Lecavalier
    Thornton
    Malkin
    Spezza
    Datsyuk
    Richards
    Staal
     
  2. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Lindros is noticably absent from the 1990's.
     
  3. TheSniper26

    TheSniper26 Registered User

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    I have a hard time agreeing with Gretzky being rated higher than Lemieux in the 90's. 80's maybe, but 90's? That's a little hard to swallow.

    And as John mentioned, as much as I'm not his biggest fan, Lindros probably should be mentioned on there somewhere.

    Also, Richards seems suspect on the current list. Other than those issues, good list.
     
  4. Kyle McMahon

    Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    I think Forsberg is too high for the 90s, assuming you're only taking into account what each player did in that decade, never mind the rest of their career.

    He only played five seasons in the 90s (1994-95 to 1998-99), and even though those were five great years, I dont think it is enough to push him ahead of Modano, Fedorov, or Sundin, as well as Lindros, who I'd say probably fits in to about #7 on the list of 1990s. Possibly #6, I think it's debatable between him and Fedorov.
     
  5. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    First of all, welcome to HF Boards. While I don't agree with all of your findings, or even your eras (yes, I can be that needy for a debate with an equal), nice effort. I don't know if I would agree

    I guess if I had to use broad eras, I would use pre Original 6, Original 6, and the post-expansion. There is some obvious breakdown in each era, especially pre and post Original 6.

    As for your actual findings...

    -I would rate Schmidt, M. Bentley and Apps as the best from 1940-1955. The top three are very close. Max and Doug Bentley were old family friends, so I rate them a little higher than most. Incredible that for one year, the Leafs had Max, Apps and Teeder Kennedy. Kennedy and Lach are in the top five, and then you have Cowley and Abel.
    -Beliveau and Mikitia should be the consensus 1-2 for your next era. I'd have serious concerns if you didn't have them 1 and 2. I would rate Richard and Keon ahead of Delvecchio. As you'll find out if you stick around, most around here think Jean Rattelle is grossly underrated, and for good reason. (I think Rattelle could also fit in your 70-85 class).
    -There is some obvious overlap. Where do you fit a guy like Trottier in? Do you have him in the 70s, even though he only played in the first half
    -I would be interested to see your ratings for a pre-Original 6. Morenz is the obvious No. 1. Guys like Joe Primeau and Frank Boucher definitely fit in beyond Morenz.
    -I'm awaiting your top overall list, like the one you supplied for the LWs.

    I also have to know: what's your criteria?
     
  6. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    For 55-70, I would have Kelly ahead of Pulford plus there are a lot of other centers in Pulfords range which is definitely below the best. Pulford never was an all star.
     
  7. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    I find it odd that Dionne is punsihed for his playoff performances, and yet, Ratelle isn't. Ratelle's ppg differential is -0.275*

    And, since Boston was a vastly superior team than anything Dionne played on, lets focus solely on Ratelle's time with the Rangers, who were still better than Dionne's teams, but, closer. Doing that we get a ppg differential of -0.422*

    If we compair to Dionne. (L.A. years only, Detroit never made the playoffs and the Rangers is an outlier in his career.) Dionne has a ppg differential of -0.497*

    Dionne is worse, but only slightly. And yet, many here, many who would say Ratelle is under rated will also chastize Dionne as an overrated choker.

    I fail to see the logic.

    *=Numbers are rounded, and I focus only on regular seasons where he made the playoffs, as those are the best comparisons IMO.
     
  8. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    Most playoff points in the 1970s:

    1. Guy Lafleur 120
    1. Jacques Lemaire 120
    3. Phil Esposito 102
    4. Jean Ratelle 93
    5. Brad Park 90
    6. Yvon Cournoyer 88
    7. Bobby Clarke 83
    8. Bobby Orr 82
    9. Rick MacLeish 80
    10. Johnny Bucyk 77
    10. Wayne Cashman 77

    Ratelle definitely rates among the best playoff scorers of that time regardless of how those numbers compare to his regular season totals. Keep in mind that his playoff PPG may be a little skewed due to his 1 point in 6 games in the `72 Final when he returned to the lineup before his broken ankle healed and was therefore ineffective. He was also a better two-play player than Dionne.

    Not saying that Ratelle was better than Dionne, but he's always rated below guys like Dionne, Sittler and Perreault, when he should be neck-and-neck with those players.

    I think the whole Marcel Dionne was a playoff-choker deal is a little overdone on this board. Disappointing playoff career? Sure. Choker? I'm not so sure. Choker usually implies that a team lost a game they should've won. In Dionne's case, L.A. was never expected to win any of those series that they lost (except for possibly the 1st round in `81). Dionne showed a lot of character in the two Kings/Bruins series in the 70s, pushing the far better Bruins to 7 games in `76, then in `77, after falling behind 3-0, coming back in to win the next two games and give the Bruins a scare. He was also usually Canada's top forward at the World Championships.

    Those L.A. teams sucked. If you don't believe me, then try naming a defenceman from that club in the late-70s. When your teams #1 defenceman is Gary Sargaent or Doug Halward, you ain't winning the Cup.

    I wonder if Butch Goring would be remembered as a playoff choker had he not been traded to the Islanders.
     
  9. Ofuzz

    Ofuzz Registered User

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    I've never understood the anti-Dionne sentiment on this board. If you were ever lucky enough to see him play "live", you would realize what a freakin magician he was on the ice. Also, he was small but he was one of the strongest players of his era. very hard to take the puck off of him.
     
  10. Crazyhorse

    Crazyhorse Registered User

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    What did Lindros do during the 90s that would put him ahead of Forsberg?
     
  11. Kyle McMahon

    Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    Well, Lindros' rookie season was 1992-93, so he has the advantage of two extra seasons. Lindros scored 600 points to Forsberg's 440, and his points-per-game is slightly higher for the decade. The biggest advantage is that Eric won both the Hart and Pearson in 1994-95. Forsberg being part of a cup-winner is in his favour, but Lindros at least made it to the finals. Not saying it's a clear, no doubt about it argument, but I think Lindros has the edge.
     
  12. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    Scary that that is 3 teams worth of players.

    I don't mean to say Ratelle is bad, but, he largely fits into that large mass of centers from the 70's and 80's like Sittler, Perrault, Stastny, Hawerchuk etc.

    They were all very good, but none were the best.

    I just find it weird that one player who can't lift a team in the playoffs gets chastized while another gets acclaimed as underrated.
     
  13. ScaredStreit

    ScaredStreit Registered User

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    He's not small but TINY. He runs a sports memorbelia store in Buffalo, and he happened to be working there when I went in. I knew he was small-but I was shocked as to how tiny he really is. But obvoiously one of the best of all time.




    Gretzky deserves to be #1 from 70-85. (at least on the list). This is what he accomplished by the end of the 85 season:


    50 goals in 39 games (NHL record)
    92 goals in one season (NHL record)
    6 50+ goal (seasons some ranging from 70+)
    3 200+ point seasons (only player to ever do so-HM to Lemieux)
    2 Stanley Cups
    3 Stanley Cup Finals appearances
    6 Hart Trophies in a row (eventually amounting to 8 in a row-NHL record)
    1 Lady Byng
    5 Art Ross in a row (once again eventually amounting to 8 in a row-NHL record)
    4 Pearsons in a row (NHL record)
    1 Conn Smythe
    Captain of the Edmonton Oilers
    51 games in a row registering a point in (NHL record)
    1.18 goals per game average in a season (NHL record)


    That's just the best of his achievments durring this short span of just SIX seasons. It was the prime of the best Center in NHL history-argubly best hockey player ever, how could he not be #1?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2007
  14. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    Yes...Lemieux should be ahead of 99 for the 90's....
    As for current centers, who would you rate ahead of Richards ?
     
  15. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    As for your actual findings...

    -I would rate Schmidt, M. Bentley and Apps as the best from 1940-1955. The top three are very close. Max and Doug Bentley were old family friends, so I rate them a little higher than most. Incredible that for one year, the Leafs had Max, Apps and Teeder Kennedy. Kennedy and Lach are in the top five, and then you have Cowley and Abel.
    -Beliveau and Mikitia should be the consensus 1-2 for your next era. I'd have serious concerns if you didn't have them 1 and 2. I would rate Richard and Keon ahead of Delvecchio. As you'll find out if you stick around, most around here think Jean Rattelle is grossly underrated, and for good reason. (I think Rattelle could also fit in your 70-85 class).
    -There is some obvious overlap. Where do you fit a guy like Trottier in? Do you have him in the 70s, even though he only played in the first half
    -I would be interested to see your ratings for a pre-Original 6. Morenz is the obvious No. 1. Guys like Joe Primeau and Frank Boucher definitely fit in beyond Morenz.
    -I'm awaiting your top overall list, like the one you supplied for the LWs.

    I also have to know: what's your criteria?[/QUOTE]

    1) How do you compare Lach with Schmidt, Bentley and Apps and others from that era ?

    2) Would you put Ratelle over Delvecchio ? How do you compare both ?

    3) I dont have a prewar ranking, altough in Montreal, Morenz and Primeau are legends...

    4) Overlaping and criterias....Some guys were hard to classify such as Trottier and others in my LW rankings.
    As for my criterias rankings, I dont have a trophy = points or scoring championship = points or also 1st and 2nd all star selections.... I did a little bit of that and for the rest, I went with bios and books I read of different players of different eras. Its hard to classify players you have never seen. I did a lot of NHL network watching also when I worked part time last year. Some of those classic games were great to watch as well as some Habs game in the 50's...

    5) I will post an overall list soon.
     
  16. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    Good point ! Then can someone explain to me why Pulford is a HOF'er ??
     
  17. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Good question. Probably politics. Most people would say Pulford does not belong in the HOF.
     
  18. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    1. Lach had the benefit of being the playmaker for one of the best goal scorers ever. Bentley, Apps and Schmidt were the leaders of their lines. Lach was great, but, without Richard, he would likely be a step back.

    2. No, Delvecchio was always the 3rd man on the line, while Ratelle was the go to guy, that said, there is very little crossover in career as Ratelle is more of a 70's player, while Delvecchio is 50's & 60's.

    3. Lot of good players, Boucher, Stewart, Nighbour and Lalonde immediately jump to mind.

    One of the most controversial picks ever. It's largely because the 60's Leafs were the only dynasty that wasn't star driven, so, the HHoF inducted more players from that team than any other.
     
  19. TheSniper26

    TheSniper26 Registered User

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    I think Richards is vastly overrated. If I were putting together a team right now of guys in the league, I would have several guys at center I'd take before him.

    Marleau
    Elias
    Briere
    Jokinen
    Straka
    Sundin
    Drury

    That's not in any order. Just a group off the top of my head.
     

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