Video My kid had his first hockey fight. Proud or Unnerved? (Video page 2)

[Slats432]

Ahhhh I see it now.

Yeah, I'd say your boy did really well in that situation actually. Stuck up for his teammate in an intimidating but non-violent way, and held off from dropping the gloves till an appropriate level of escalation. If fighting is going to remain in this game, that's what it should look like.

(someone needs to let #17 know it's OK to grab a jersey or something)

Thanks. As for teammates, it was probably more shocking to some of the kids because they haven't played junior, and likely were surprised it went down (Especially because it was a spring camp). In Midget AAA there were a few events that caused teammates to stick up for each other and for the most part they did.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Perhaps I missed this in the thread, but what does “jabbed” mean here? There is a huge difference between poking at the puck, which the goalie has in his glove, before the whistle blows and spearing the goalie.

It is funny seeing the guy who plays rec hockey say he would punch anyone who “jabbed” his goalie. Actually, it’s not funny, it’s what wrong with a lot of red hockey players, thinking they are in the NHL.

 

[Slats432]

Perhaps I missed this in the thread, but what does “jabbed” mean here? There is a huge difference between poking at the puck, which the goalie has in his glove, before the whistle blows and spearing the goalie.

It is funny seeing the guy who plays rec hockey say he would punch anyone who “jabbed” his goalie. Actually, it’s not funny, it’s what wrong with a lot of red hockey players, thinking they are in the NHL.

It was a puck that the goalie clearly had and after the whistle the player with good force poked his stick at the goalie's glove/hand.

 

[ChuckLefley]

It was a puck that the goalie clearly had and after the whistle the player with good force poked his stick at the goalie's glove/hand.

So something that happens every game and isn’t really vicious or dirty. Thanks.

 

[BogsDiamond]

I don't know how much high level hockey you have watched. Whether I or you like fighting in the game, it is part of the game.

Completely subjective.
Fighting is really only 'part of the game' in North America. (See Olympic and JR hockey - the best hockey you'll ever see and there are ZERO fights).
Fighting used to be part of basketball too.

Regardless of what side of the argument you're on (I'm a waffler), nobody can argue that hockey can and is played without fighting in many different forms.

Scientifically, we have a lot more information at our fingertips regarding the dangers of fighting and concussions.
Bob McKenzie's youngest son Sean (who's a SN analyst now) had to retire from hockey as a 15YO because of a massive concussion he sustained in a hockey fight.

 

[BogsDiamond]

I have said the same. My kid is a big boy. Other kid is 2-3 years older and invited the fight.

LOL, again another subjective way of looking at things.
I saw a kid who was twice his size come out of nowhere to engage in a fight with him.
I don't care if your son is 2-3 years younger, he was BY FAR the bigger kid and the aggressor.
I actually have more respect for the opponent - who did pretty good himself, landed the better shot and ended up on top.

If your son is going to defend teammates well after the initial point of contact, he better learn to fight. The next time, it might be against someone his same size who actually knows what he's doing.

As an impartial viewer, your son looked like the bully in this scenario and if I"m the father of the other kid, I'm proud that he stood up for himself and won the fight.

 

[Slats432]

Bogs, of course I am partial, but the instigator was the one who poked the goalie, and my boy gave a bit of a crosscheck to suggest it wasn't acceptable. Both parties including two players from the other team continued pushing back and forth. The player that poked the goalie and his brother could have easy backed away, and in this situation, my boy had zero intention of doing so.

When the player with the visor "verbally" initiated the fight, my boy certainly became the aggressor. He did not without provocation throw off his helmet to engage another player, he did so after the other player requested it.

I also have respect for the opponent, looking at someone much bigger and requesting the fight. The other player did not in fact land anything and was also cut open during the fight. My son did lose balance during the last hard punch and fell, but did not lose balance due to anything the other player did. My son landed several and by all accounts of every person who viewed the video won the fight. (Which again, I am not sure I am supportive of him even fighting in the first place. This discussion was had afterwards, even to the point that I had asked him if he went into this camp with the intentions of having his first fight. He indicated it was not premeditated.)

I can see from certain perspective where my boy came out of nowhere, but the video itself does not show the initial poke/jab/spear into the goalies hand that started the melee to begin with. Nor does it have sound to know what was going on.

I do appreciate your perspective though. I do not have any want to have my son be a bully/goon on the ice.

 

[Slats432]

Completely subjective.
Fighting is really only 'part of the game' in North America. (See Olympic and JR hockey - the best hockey you'll ever see and there are ZERO fights).
Fighting used to be part of basketball too.

Regardless of what side of the argument you're on (I'm a waffler), nobody can argue that hockey can and is played without fighting in many different forms.

Scientifically, we have a lot more information at our fingertips regarding the dangers of fighting and concussions.
Bob McKenzie's youngest son Sean (who's a SN analyst now) had to retire from hockey as a 15YO because of a massive concussion he sustained in a hockey fight.

In every area of junior and professional hockey, NCAA, CIS there is fighting to some degree. I am not saying it can't be eliminated from the game for the most part, and feel like eventually that will likely be the case. I would agree the best hockey of the highest level has no fighting. That is simply because the make up of those teams is the most skilled players. (Most leagues/teams do not have that luxury) If my kid decided to not fight, it wouldn't bother me because like you, I am not sure of its place in the game.

 

[vandymeer13]

Completely subjective.
Fighting is really only 'part of the game' in North America. (See Olympic and JR hockey - the best hockey you'll ever see and there are ZERO fights).
Fighting used to be part of basketball too.

Regardless of what side of the argument you're on (I'm a waffler), nobody can argue that hockey can and is played without fighting in many different forms.

Scientifically, we have a lot more information at our fingertips regarding the dangers of fighting and concussions.
Bob McKenzie's youngest son Sean (who's a SN analyst now) had to retire from hockey as a 15YO because of a massive concussion he sustained in a hockey fight.

That's your opinion the only Jr league I'd watch now a days is the whl. Olympic hockey is alright but that's because national pride thing. I watch curling and pretty much every olympic sport but wouldn't watch any of it wasn't for the Olympics. Fighting is what makes hockey unique and the game is really losing that along with rivalries and hatred. The game was way better 10 years ago then today no questions. European hockey besides the eihl dont have a lot of fighting or hitting and they both suck to watch.

 

[vandymeer13]

LOL, again another subjective way of looking at things.
I saw a kid who was twice his size come out of nowhere to engage in a fight with him.
I don't care if your son is 2-3 years younger, he was BY FAR the bigger kid and the aggressor.
I actually have more respect for the opponent - who did pretty good himself, landed the better shot and ended up on top.

If your son is going to defend teammates well after the initial point of contact, he better learn to fight. The next time, it might be against someone his same size who actually knows what he's doing.

As an impartial viewer, your son looked like the bully in this scenario and if I"m the father of the other kid, I'm proud that he stood up for himself and won the fight.

You shouldn't have raki in your avatar your more of a averman might duck fan it seems from your posts.

 

[Rob Brown]

Thanks for sharing. I miss this stuff from growing up playing hockey. I'm 6'4", 220 lbs. now but I'm 27 but I was very skinny at that age.

One thing that stuck out to me - why does the other kid chirp your son to take off his cage but then leaves his helmet/visor on? I know it's not the same thing but if I was going to try to pull someone into a fight by getting him to take his helmet off I would probably do the same thing.

 

[SourOil]

LOL, again another subjective way of looking at things.
I saw a kid who was twice his size come out of nowhere to engage in a fight with him.
I don't care if your son is 2-3 years younger, he was BY FAR the bigger kid and the aggressor.
I actually have more respect for the opponent - who did pretty good himself, landed the better shot and ended up on top.

If your son is going to defend teammates well after the initial point of contact, he better learn to fight. The next time, it might be against someone his same size who actually knows what he's doing.

As an impartial viewer, your son looked like the bully in this scenario and if I"m the father of the other kid, I'm proud that he stood up for himself and won the fight.

Found the father of the other kid.

 

[Slats432]

Thanks for sharing. I miss this stuff from growing up playing hockey. I'm 6'4", 220 lbs. now but I'm 27 but I was very skinny at that age.

One thing that stuck out to me - why does the other kid chirp your son to take off his cage but then leaves his helmet/visor on? I know it's not the same thing but if I was going to try to pull someone into a fight by getting him to take his helmet off I would probably do the same thing.

No problem. I was actually pretty concerned of blow back because of peoples thoughts on CTE and fighting and me actually being a bit proud of my kid standing up for a teammate. As he prepares for camp this fall, I have talked with him and told him not to go looking for a fight. If he needs to, he needs to, but it should be a last resort.

I could see the other player not taking off helmet because if you fight with a visor, it isn't instinctual. Usually both guys have visors so it wouldn't be in the front of his mind. No one is going to fight someone with a cage on.

 

[Slats432]

Also, I don't want people to get on BogsDiamond too bad. We challenge our views when people oppose them in a respectful way. He made me examine how I felt about it again. For that I am thankful not upset.

 

[Rob Brown]

No problem. I was actually pretty concerned of blow back because of peoples thoughts on CTE and fighting and me actually being a bit proud of my kid standing up for a teammate. As he prepares for camp this fall, I have talked with him and told him not to go looking for a fight. If he needs to, he needs to, but it should be a last resort.

I could see the other player not taking off helmet because if you fight with a visor, it isn't instinctual. Usually both guys have visors so it wouldn't be in the front of his mind. No one is going to fight someone with a cage on.

Yeah, no doubt that no one will fight someone with a cage on. My thinking was more that if the other kid was chirping your son for wearing a cage, you'd think he would realize that a visor is also protecting his face and that it him taking off his helmet too makes it even.

 

[Bigrigwilly43]

Reminds me of me when I was dumping boys left and right all over Ontario

 

[Critical13]

Not a fan of that video, huge size miss match, he crosschecks a guys face....just boiling over with aggression and hormones. @Slats432

Beating up a guy 6" and 40lbs smaller than you isn't an accomplishment. He was out there lookin for a fight.

 

[member 157595]

Reminds me of me when I was dumping boys left and right all over Ontario

I fail to see how your relationship problems are relevant to this thread.

 

[BogsDiamond]

That's your opinion the only Jr league I'd watch now a days is the whl. Olympic hockey is alright but that's because national pride thing. I watch curling and pretty much every olympic sport but wouldn't watch any of it wasn't for the Olympics. Fighting is what makes hockey unique and the game is really losing that along with rivalries and hatred. The game was way better 10 years ago then today no questions. European hockey besides the eihl dont have a lot of fighting or hitting and they both suck to watch.

Both suck because the game is played in a completely different way and without as much skill.
Euro hockey is east-west rather than north-south. And they only want to score after making several EA NHL18 saucer passes in a row.

I grew up with the Bruise Brothers Probie and Kocur and loved it. But after reading about all the CTE and crap these guys go through, it's soured me to goon hockey.
It was different back then too. Enforcers like Probie, McSorley, Domi, etc, could actually play a regular shift. They'd also pump anyone that looked at their stars the wrong way.
(Watching Probert punch Barrasso's helmet off while trying to get at Maguire, who was assaulting Yzerman, is awesome. And nobody comes to defend Barrasso).

Nowadays, goons won't drop mitts with anyone but other goons. It doesn't teach anyone else a lesson. Case in point; Matt Cooke. Every shift it seemed like he was looking to end a career. And he did drop the gloves for his transgressions (eg Thornton - who he did well against). It wasn't until he got a 17 game suspension that he became a different player.
Another difference is the pay. Guys in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc made less than a UAW worker. There aren't many guys willing to get clobbered by Probert for 45K a year.
But today? Pffft, lots of guys would love to play the role of a rat for the chance at 7-digits. Guys like Cooke, Torres and now Tom Wilson wouldn't think twice.

This is why the enforcer doesn't hold much water in today's game. Most can't keep up with the pace of play, and those who can only fight other fighters.

Slats432, my apologies if I came off too harsh. It wasn't really my intentions.
I just think that as a whole, our values with hockey are off kilter. Everyone loves it when someone stands up for a teammate. It certainly is admirable.
But I wonder if those same people cheering will still be around if something tragic happens - like Don Sanderson.
Or even with Bob McKenzie. His son was on his way to earning a U.S. scholarship until a fight took his career away.
All those people cheering and patting your back are suddenly ghosts when you're all alone fighting with the after affects.

You shouldn't have raki in your avatar your more of a averman might duck fan it seems from your posts.

You forgot to add a remark about playing volleyball or gymnastics. Yeesh, if you're going to be a walking cliche at least go all out.
No heart on this guy at all!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Both suck because the game is played in a completely different way and without as much skill.
Euro hockey is east-west rather than north-south. And they only want to score after making several EA NHL18 saucer passes in a row.

I grew up with the Bruise Brothers Probie and Kocur and loved it. But after reading about all the CTE and crap these guys go through, it's soured me to goon hockey.
It was different back then too. Enforcers like Probie, McSorley, Domi, etc, could actually play a regular shift. They'd also pump anyone that looked at their stars the wrong way.
(Watching Probert punch Barrasso's helmet off while trying to get at Maguire, who was assaulting Yzerman, is awesome. And nobody comes to defend Barrasso).

Nowadays, goons won't drop mitts with anyone but other goons. It doesn't teach anyone else a lesson. Case in point; Matt Cooke. Every shift it seemed like he was looking to end a career. And he did drop the gloves for his transgressions (eg Thornton - who he did well against). It wasn't until he got a 17 game suspension that he became a different player.
Another difference is the pay. Guys in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc made less than a UAW worker. There aren't many guys willing to get clobbered by Probert for 45K a year.
But today? Pffft, lots of guys would love to play the role of a rat for the chance at 7-digits. Guys like Cooke, Torres and now Tom Wilson wouldn't think twice.

This is why the enforcer doesn't hold much water in today's game. Most can't keep up with the pace of play, and those who can only fight other fighters.

Slats432, my apologies if I came off too harsh. It wasn't really my intentions.
I just think that as a whole, our values with hockey are off kilter. Everyone loves it when someone stands up for a teammate. It certainly is admirable.
But I wonder if those same people cheering will still be around if something tragic happens - like Don Sanderson.
Or even with Bob McKenzie. His son was on his way to earning a U.S. scholarship until a fight took his career away.
All those people cheering and patting your back are suddenly ghosts when you're all alone fighting with the after affects.



You forgot to add a remark about playing volleyball or gymnastics. Yeesh, if you're going to be a walking cliche at least go all out.
No heart on this guy at all!

Until Matt Cooke tried Evander Kane, father and grandfather former pro boxers run a boxing gym/school in Vancouver:



Few will fight Evander Kane.

Stick to fighting your own battles.

 

[BogsDiamond]

That fight took place in April of 2010.
He was involved with several dirty actions after this fight, before he was finally suspended for 17 games after blindsiding Ryan McDonough with an elbow on March 20th, 2011.


After his KO loss to Kane, he went on to commit 7 questionable dirty hits including an elbow on Kane at the beginning of the 2010 season.
Fighting, and being KO'd in a very humbling and embarrassing way, literally did nothing to stop him from being the most dangerous rat in his era - but a 17 game sitdown costing him nearly 250K sure did.

 

[vandymeer13]

Both suck because the game is played in a completely different way and without as much skill.
Euro hockey is east-west rather than north-south. And they only want to score after making several EA NHL18 saucer passes in a row.

I grew up with the Bruise Brothers Probie and Kocur and loved it. But after reading about all the CTE and crap these guys go through, it's soured me to goon hockey.
It was different back then too. Enforcers like Probie, McSorley, Domi, etc, could actually play a regular shift. They'd also pump anyone that looked at their stars the wrong way.
(Watching Probert punch Barrasso's helmet off while trying to get at Maguire, who was assaulting Yzerman, is awesome. And nobody comes to defend Barrasso).

Nowadays, goons won't drop mitts with anyone but other goons. It doesn't teach anyone else a lesson. Case in point; Matt Cooke. Every shift it seemed like he was looking to end a career. And he did drop the gloves for his transgressions (eg Thornton - who he did well against). It wasn't until he got a 17 game suspension that he became a different player.
Another difference is the pay. Guys in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc made less than a UAW worker. There aren't many guys willing to get clobbered by Probert for 45K a year.
But today? Pffft, lots of guys would love to play the role of a rat for the chance at 7-digits. Guys like Cooke, Torres and now Tom Wilson wouldn't think twice.

This is why the enforcer doesn't hold much water in today's game. Most can't keep up with the pace of play, and those who can only fight other fighters.

Slats432, my apologies if I came off too harsh. It wasn't really my intentions.
I just think that as a whole, our values with hockey are off kilter. Everyone loves it when someone stands up for a teammate. It certainly is admirable.
But I wonder if those same people cheering will still be around if something tragic happens - like Don Sanderson.
Or even with Bob McKenzie. His son was on his way to earning a U.S. scholarship until a fight took his career away.
All those people cheering and patting your back are suddenly ghosts when you're all alone fighting with the after affects.



You forgot to add a remark about playing volleyball or gymnastics. Yeesh, if you're going to be a walking cliche at least go all out.
No heart on this guy at all!

First I think the only reason enforcers are less effective now is because the refs protect the instigators and rats and dont let the players police themselves like they use to.
Second everybody knows the risks of playing a physical sport. True we didn't know as much about long term effects as we do now with cte but you cant stop living life worrying about every possible thing. The best thing is to treat it the right way. Like Dan carcillo said if every team had a nureologest to rehab players when they get a brain injury and give them time to recover it be great. I've had a couple brushes with death [allergic reactions and blood clots] that made me give up contact sports as I'm on blood thinners for the rest of my life and had two great uncles die from dementia probably related to cte from playing college football . So I know how precise life is and how short it can be but you cant live life in a bubble. If I could live a comfortable life being a fighter in hockey or any sport and it takes a couple years off my life I'd do it in s heartbeat because nothing is guaranteed and I'd prefer to live life to the fullest

 

[BogsDiamond]

First I think the only reason enforcers are less effective now is because the refs protect the instigators and rats and dont let the players police themselves like they use to.
Second everybody knows the risks of playing a physical sport. True we didn't know as much about long term effects as we do now with cte but you cant stop living life worrying about every possible thing. The best thing is to treat it the right way. Like Dan carcillo said if every team had a nureologest to rehab players when they get a brain injury and give them time to recover it be great. I've had a couple brushes with death [allergic reactions and blood clots] that made me give up contact sports as I'm on blood thinners for the rest of my life and had two great uncles die from dementia probably related to cte from playing college football . So I know how precise life is and how short it can be but you cant live life in a bubble. If I could live a comfortable life being a fighter in hockey or any sport and it takes a couple years off my life I'd do it in s heartbeat because nothing is guaranteed and I'd prefer to live life to the fullest

Fair enough.
But I think you may change your mind if you started experiencing dementia and other neurological disorders at an early age.
Former Bears QB, Jim McMahon is suffering bigtime these days. He got 'lost' one day trying to deliver an envelope. He was 2 blocks from his home. And he's only in his 50's.
He has said numerous times that if he had known the risks, he would have never played football and would have instead accepted a scholarship offer to play baseball instead.
In Bob Probert's biography he spoke about a desire to be a player like Steve Yzerman where he didn't have to fight. People don't realize he was an all-star on his AAA Midget rep team.
He even won the MVP in a national tournament the year he went to the OHL. He admitted that he hadn't even been in a hockey fight until he was in Major junior.
In Dave Shultz book, he talks about how fighting should be banned in hockey. In fact, when his two sons started playing minor hockey, he warned both that if they ever fought, that would be the last hockey game they'd play.

The point I'm making is that sometimes people have to be saved from themselves. When you're young and full of life and vigor, you don't think you can be hurt. Shawn MacKenzie sure didn't think he could.
I'm sure Don Sanderson didn't think so either.
Despite claiming to know the risks, most don't ever believe it'll happen to them.
Heck, I used to box in high school and college. I loved it. But despite falling in love with the sport, I'm glad I didn't stick with it.

BTW, it's interesting that you reference Dan Carcillo. I've read his comments on social media as well and he goes beyond having better spotters or experts on the bench.
He wants to end all hits to the head.

First I think the only reason enforcers are less effective now is because the refs protect the instigators and rats and don't let the players police themselves like they use to.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Enforcers are gone because they can't keep up to the pace of play. Brian Burke loves truculence more than anyone and he was basically in tears when he was forced to release Colton Orr.
People can also point to the Instigator rule as a handicap enforcers have to deal with, and yet this rule is voted into the CBA by the players themselves when it's time for renewel.
Phil Esposito used to be on the XM NHL station and he said as a former owner he knows for a fact the players want that rule in there. Why? Because they were tired of getting targeted in the last 5 minutes of a game that's out of hand. The last thing they wanted was to get blindsided by a guy who can barely skate simply because the score was lopsided.

Anyway, sorry to the OP for taking this off-topic. And my apologies to everyone else here.

 

[vandymeer13]

Dave schultz said that in his book but more recently in documentaries said fighting has a place in the game and that the instigator should be gone. But I think we've talked about this issue enough to so truce.

 

[sandysan]

Not a fan of that video, huge size miss match, he crosschecks a guys face....just boiling over with aggression and hormones. @Slats432

Beating up a guy 6" and 40lbs smaller than you isn't an accomplishment. He was out there lookin for a fight.

"don't start nothing, won't be nothing"

I'd actually want ALL players to be " looking for a fight" with guys taking liberties with the goalie. the rules are clear, win lose or draw when people take liberties with the goalie you get your nose dirty. There are very few things that can happen where a response is 100% justified. this is one.