Confirmed with Link: Multiple staff leave Leafs front office

[Sypher04]

Ive seen it reported from different writers that Dubas had input on the the ‘15 draft, but that influence was essentially cut off for the ‘16-17 drafts. So it doesn’t sound as if Hunter was completely full decisions without any oversight/influence

Same, and it stands to reason. At the time of the 2015 draft Mark Hunter & Kyle Dubas were both Co-Interim GMs.

 

[Sypher04]

Ive seen it reported from different writers that Dubas had input on the the ‘15 draft, but that influence was essentially cut off for the ‘16-17 drafts. So it doesn’t sound as if Hunter was completely full decisions without any oversight/influence

Same, and it stands to reason. At the time of the 2015 draft Mark Hunter & Kyle Dubas were both Co-Interim GMs.

 

[Sypher04]

Dubas had control over trades, and therefore could force a trade down (which he did). But, Hunter had final say on all picks. To try to say he only gets half credit on Dermott is ridiculous. He ran our scouting meetings and our board. It is trying to devalue what Hunter did at the time.

This set-up clearly wasn't going to work, and was contentious with Shanahan not wanting to be the deciding vote, hence why he brought Lou in, and sent Hunter and Dubas to their own parts of the organization, as he realized that a co-gm situation or one answering to the other wasn't going to work.

This is a lot of assumption.

Regarding Dermott I'm making no assumptions. I'm doing the exact opposite stating we don't know how closely Hunter himself was to the Dermott pick which is fair given Dubas' involvement & the scouts. Hunter could have made the pick himself, and if so good for him, but it's not quantifiable given the information we have from the outside.

I imagine Hunter likely did have final say on picks. I don't contest that. I just am saying we have no idea how many people were involved in the selection of Dermott. I'm not prepared to attribute every good pick under Hunter's watch to him. Just like I won't hang bad ones on him either.

 

[93LEAFS]

This is a lot of assumption.

Regarding Dermott I'm making no assumptions. I'm doing the exact opposite stating we don't know how closely Hunter himself was to the Dermott pick which is fair given Dubas' involvement & the scouts. Hunter could have made the pick himself, and if so good for him, but it's not quantifiable given the information we have from the outside.

You are, by saying he only gets half credit. That is exactly quantifying it.

 

[Menzinger]

Dubas had control over trades, and therefore could force a trade down (which he did). But, Hunter had final say on all picks. To try to say he only gets half credit on Dermott is ridiculous. He ran our scouting meetings and our board. It is trying to devalue what Hunter did at the time.

This set-up clearly wasn't going to work, and was contentious with Shanahan not wanting to be the deciding vote, hence why he brought Lou in, and sent Hunter and Dubas to their own parts of the organization, as he realized that a co-gm situation or one answering to the other wasn't going to work.

I can see the head scout getting final say, but what seems unlikely is the idea that Dubas wasn’t having ANY input on the selections.

Agreed that it was dysfunctional though, which is why an eventual longer term solution needed to be made.

 

[Sypher04]

You are, by saying he only gets half credit.

Half was just a random number for explanation/example purposes, I thought that was clear, but I guess not, so sorry I'll pay closer attention to my wording next time. My overall point doesn't change.

 

[Kiwi]

Hofford was kept in check by basically having Hunter with him monitoring the same region. That won't happen with Clark, who will be given free reign over Ontario at a minimum.

Is Clark coming in a scouting capacity or development? Or as some sort of adviser to Dubas in the front office?

 

[93LEAFS]

I can see the head scout getting final say, but what seems unlikely is the idea that Dubas wasn’t having ANY input on the selections.

Agreed that it was dysfunctional though, which is why an eventual longer term solution needed to be made.

Except then Hunter shouldn't shoulder the full blame for picks that went south, which is exactly what people are trying to do here.

Hunter has done better drafting than anyone the Leafs have had in the drafting era. Yet, because of the defenceman he picked, people are blatantly sewering him on the way out, and then assigning him all the blame for certain things, then trying to pass off his success to the new GM.

 

[93LEAFS]

Is Clark coming in a scouting capacity or development? Or as some sort of adviser to Dubas in the front office?

Scouting, as I said 4 weeks ago, and very likely in charge of Ontario at a minimum.

 

[Sypher04]

Except then Hunter shouldn't shoulder the full blame for picks that went south, which is exactly what people are trying to do here.

Hunter has done better drafting than anyone the Leafs have had in the drafting era. Yet, because of the defenceman he picked, people are blatantly sewering him on the way out, and then assigning him all the blame for certain things, then trying to pass off his success to the new GM.

If you're talking about me then you missed the point entirely. None of this is what I said or was implying at all.

My point has been Hunter doesn't get all the credit for good OR bad picks. He's the head of a GROUP of people tasked with making these decisions. Also the quality of the overall body of work under his leadership is unknown and can't really be judged yet for several years.

At precisely no point did I try to pass off his "'success" (as you have prematurely called it) it to the new GM.

 

[SprDaVE]

This addition would be fantastic.

 

[93LEAFS]

If you're talking about me then you missed the point entirely. That's not what I said or was implying at all.

My point has been Hunter doesn't get all the credit for good OR bad picks. He's the head of a group of people making these decisions.

Obviously, but he has to organize these 15 to 20 opinions into a cohesive list, and decide who's opinion within the scouting staff he values the most when they pound the table for a guy. That's why the Head Scout generally bears a majority of the responsibility for a draft, unless a GM decides that they are going to do what he wants (which can happen with 1st round picks, and generally isn't a good trait, see Doug McLean). Scouts aren't just given picks unless you run out of names of the draft board, and then you tend to give a pick to a regional scout you trust to take an off the board pick, that they may not have had enough viewings to rank (see the Datsyuk pick).

People here are convinced Rasanen is going to bust (not a bad assumption), but at the end of the day, people here are going to hold Hunter fully responsible. We aren't going to hear about how Paliafito, Hofford or another regional guy was involved. Hunter was the CEO of the draft table from 2015 to 2017. He therefore will get undue praise and undue bashing, because ultimately, he owns the picks by signing off on them.

 

[93LEAFS]

This addition would be fantastic.

Well, that wasn't the surprising name I keep hearing. I wonder what type of role it would be. Would it actually be in the Hockey side of things, or a community relations-type role (as I know she is involved heavily in charitable endeavors).

 

[Sypher04]

Obviously, but he has to organize these 15 to 20 opinions into a cohesive list, and decide who's opinion within the scouting staff he values the most when they pound the table for a guy. That's why the Head Scout generally bears a majority of the responsibility for a draft, unless a GM decides that they are going to do what he wants (which can happen with 1st round picks, and generally isn't a good trait, see Doug McLean). Scouts aren't just given picks unless you run out of names of the draft board, and then you tend to give a pick to a regional scout you trust to take an off the board pick, that they may not have had enough viewings to rank (see the Datsyuk pick).

People here are convinced Rasanen is going to bust (not a bad assumption), but at the end of the day, people here are going to hold Hunter fully responsible. We aren't going to hear about how Paliafito, Hofford or another regional guy was involved. Hunter was the CEO of the draft table from 2015 to 2017. He therefore will get undue praise and undue bashing, because ultimately, he owns the picks by signing off on them.

Well all I'd say is that I can't answer for the general perception. All I can say is that I understand and appreciate that Hunter makes no picks (except maybe Marner lol) as an island. He may have been the face of those 3 years of drafting, but he's not responsible for all their successes or all their failures. Nor will Dubas be for what's about to come.

The only way I hang scouting on Dubas, eventually, is if he fails to surround himself with good people to work in that department. Obviously, in an ideal world, I'd have preferred Hunter stayed.

 

[Sypher04]

Well, that wasn't the surprising name I keep hearing. I wonder what type of role it would be. Would it actually be in the Hockey side of things, or a community relations-type role (as I know she is involved heavily in charitable endeavors).

She definitely seems like an interesting, outside the box hire. Could definitely bring unique perspective.

 

[93LEAFS]

Well all I'd say is that I can't answer for the general perception. All I can say is that I understand and appreciate that Hunter makes no picks (except maybe Marner lol) as an island. He may have been the face of those 3 years of drafting, but he's not responsible for all their successes or all their failures. Nor will Dubas be for what's about to come.

The only way I hang scouting on Dubas, eventually, is if he fails to surround himself with good people to work in that department. Obviously, in an ideal world, I'd have preferred Hunter stayed.

If you actually want to delve in and credit someone for Marner. It would be Lindsey Hofford. He would have been banging the table the hardest, even harder than Hunter. Hofford coached Marner when he was like 10, and was the GTHL scout at the time Knights picked him. Lindsey might have actually quit on the draft floor if they didn't take Mitch lol.

 

[SprDaVE]

Well, that wasn't the surprising name I keep hearing. I wonder what type of role it would be. Would it actually be in the Hockey side of things, or a community relations-type role (as I know she is involved heavily in charitable endeavors).

She talked about coaching. Maybe she gets involved as an ambassador to start off though... I don't know. She's been heavily involved in the development camp.

Also, what's the 'surprise' name you're hearing?

 

[Sypher04]

If you actually want to delve in and credit someone for Marner. It would be Lindsey Hofford. He would have been banging the table the hardest, even harder than Hunter. Hofford coached Marner when he was like 10, and was the GTHL scout at the time Knights picked him. Lindsey might have actually quit on the draft floor if they didn't take Mitch lol.

I almost kinda wish we'd seen that. Sounds wildly entertaining....

oh well, probably not as entertaining as Mitch Marner

 

[93LEAFS]

She talked about coaching. Maybe she gets involved as an ambassador to start off... I don't know.

Also, what's the 'surprise' name you're hearing?

I can't say the name, as it isn't out there yet (and the person hasn't accepted the offer yet, to the best of my knowledge). If it happens though, you will all know what I was talking about. I'll tell the board if it doesn't happen by the end of July.

 

[SprDaVE]

I can't say the name, as it isn't out there yet (and the person hasn't accepted the offer yet, to the best of my knowledge). If it happens though, you will all know what I was talking about. I'll tell the board if it doesn't happen by the end of July.

I've read a couple people suggest there is going to be an announcement there as well. Might be the same information they received.

 

[93LEAFS]

I've read a couple people suggest there is going to be an announcement there as well. Might be the same information they received.

Wes Clark is a lock at this point. Him defollowing the Panthers and following both Leafs account makes it a lock. Although, I heard it was a lock to happen after the draft 4 weeks ago (and posted as such). The question is, do they want to announce it in a very quiet discreet manner (aka, bury it on July 1st) or do they want it to get press, therefore they'll announce it soon or slightly after July 1st.

The one I'm hearing even if it is for a relatively minor role, it will catch attention.

 

[KMNRB]

2015: Marner, Dermott .. unknowns
2016: Matthew, Grundstrom .. unknowns
2017: Liljegren .. unknowns

Marner, Matthews & Liljegren were easy picks.

If Dubas were in charge last year, I can imagine a trade-down scenario where the leafs would then pick Connor Timmons instead of picking Liljegren. There're also plenty of other good players left (like Robert Thomas). I don't think it was that obvious a pick.

This is just pure speculation/imagination based on how they had drafted this year, but if that had really happened I can imagine the board exploding.

 

[Kamiccolo]

It does?

2015: Marner, Dermott .. unknowns
2016: Matthew, Grundstrom .. unknowns
2017: Liljegren .. unknowns

Marner, Matthews & Liljegren were easy picks.

In 2015, Dubas had more say in our draft than he did in either 2016 and 2017, and as also being an OHL guy I'm not prepared to give Hunter all the credit for Dermott.

Beyond that Grundstrom looks like a player... and honestly who knows what others eventually make it.

I keep reading this, but at the time it was seen as a terrible choice and this board tore it to shit. Drafting a small winger instead of Hanifin, or many of the D available. Even looking back arguably Provorov, Werenski, etc could arguably be better picks there.

 

[Stand Witness]

Should add that it seems there is strong speculation to Hayley Wickenheiser and Wes Clark joining the staff in some capacity.

 

[saltming]

Is Clark coming in a scouting capacity or development? Or as some sort of adviser to Dubas in the front office?