Multiple Balls: Disadvantage?

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PecaFan

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DJAnimosity said:
The only thing this would do is give the team with 3 balls a better chance at the 30th pick.

Nope. To get the 30th pick, a three ball team has to achieve the following highly unlikely occurence: All 3 of their balls have to be drawn before any of the 1 ball teams, and before any of the 2 balls teams twice. We already start with 33% of the balls in the bin being 1 ball teams. There are 10 more two ball teams that will be one ball teams if they should be first out, so that 33% will be climbing each pick.

There's less than 1/1000th of 1 percent chance of the same team coming out on the first three picks, and it's not much higher than that for them to come out 3 out of 4 with a two ball team in the mix once, etc.
 

CatscratchFever

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Where do you guys get this stuff? 1-30, like posted above, is what a WEIGHTED lottory was designed for. As a Panther fan, reverse gives me a better shot a #1 than straight up. Why? Because we only get 1 ball. The obvious advantage is to teams with 2 or 3. Why is that so hard to wrap a brain around? Think of it as lotto tickets instead. 30 of us HFers are standing around waiting for the drawing, some of us have 1 ticket, some 2, some 3, which of us has the best shot at the money? The 2's and 3's of course! Sure, me standing here with my 1 ticket COULD win the cash, the the chances are better for those around me. Easy Peasy.
 

Realm

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Cant we just lock this thing? Obviously its not a disadvantage to have more ping pong balls. Come on people!!!
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Seachd said:
No, they'd count the last ball, not the first one. So the more balls a team has, the more likely it is that their last one comes out later.

That has to be one of the dumbest "theories" ever read on this board.

Seriously.
 

mas0764

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CatscratchFever said:
Where do you guys get this stuff? 1-30, like posted above, is what a WEIGHTED lottory was designed for. As a Panther fan, reverse gives me a better shot a #1 than straight up.

No it doesn't. Not at all.


CatscratchFever said:
Why? Because we only get 1 ball. The obvious advantage is to teams with 2 or 3. Why is that so hard to wrap a brain around? Think of it as lotto tickets instead. 30 of us HFers are standing around waiting for the drawing, some of us have 1 ticket, some 2, some 3, which of us has the best shot at the money? The 2's and 3's of course! Sure, me standing here with my 1 ticket COULD win the cash, the the chances are better for those around me. Easy Peasy.

You are falling into a logical trap. It SEEMS that you have a better chance of lasting because you have more balls, but that is a classic statistical confusion. The only thing you have is a better chance of being pulled out until you are on equal footing with everyone else.

To say that you have a better chance of lasting is to ASSUME that a large number of other teams will have been eliminated before you get to your last ball, and that's the fallacy. You have a better chance of having your balls pulled before other teams are eliminated because you have more.

What you're doing, by working backwards, is GAMBLING that you won't get pulled early, and you're going against the odds.

If you start at one, the bad teams have a good chance of getting picked and its much more statistically unlikely that they remain around.

As a Panthers fan, you should be crossing your fingers that they start at 1.
 

Seachd

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Vlad The Impaler said:
That has to be one of the dumbest "theories" ever read on this board.

Seriously.
Why are you telling me?

Did you read the thread?
 

Chaos

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I think people are thinking way too much about this. They will simply draw 1-30, and then announce it 30-1. Its really not that complicated.
 

mas0764

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Realm said:
Cant we just lock this thing? Obviously its not a disadvantage to have more ping pong balls. Come on people!!!


The argument is about where you start, though.

Starting at the back mitigates the advantage for teams with multiple balls.

If you want to start at the back, give the GOOD teams a bunch of balls, and the bad teams only one ball.

Then if a 3-ball team gets picked at 30, that's where they draft.
 

Seachd

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Chaos said:
I think people are thinking way too much about this. They will simply draw 1-30, and then announce it 30-1. Its really not that complicated.
Exactly. Except I personally think it'd be better if they announced 1-30 too.
 

DJA

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Unbelievable that people can't figure out that the whole point of a lottery is to have the FIRST BALL PICKED FROM THE HOPPER be the winner.

Why is that hard to understand?
 

CatscratchFever

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mschmidt64 said:
No it doesn't. Not at all.




You are falling into a logical trap. It SEEMS that you have a better chance of lasting because you have more balls, but that is a classic statistical confusion. The only thing you have is a better chance of being pulled out until you are on equal footing with everyone else.

To say that you have a better chance of lasting is to ASSUME that a large number of other teams will have been eliminated before you get to your last ball, and that's the fallacy. You have a better chance of having your balls pulled before other teams are eliminated because you have more.

What you're doing, by working backwards, is GAMBLING that you won't get pulled early, and you're going against the odds.

If you start at one, the bad teams have a good chance of getting picked and its much more statistically unlikely that they remain around.

As a Panthers fan, you should be crossing your fingers that they start at 1.


The logical trap is yours and yours alone. Too much thinking make Homer brain hurt. Safety first!
 

Seachd

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CatscratchFever said:
The logical trap is yours and yours alone. Too much thinking make Homer brain hurt. Safety first!
But his way makes sense. Yours falls apart after a team with 3 balls loses one of them on the 30th pick.
 

mas0764

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CatscratchFever said:
The logical trap is yours and yours alone. Too much thinking make Homer brain hurt. Safety first!


If you've got multiple balls, you want to be starting from 1.

And even if it doesn't make a difference -- which it does -- but even if it doesn't make a difference, you CERTAINLY are not HELPED by starting from the back more than starting from the front.
 

MaV

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mschmidt64 said:
Eventually, you will reach a point, and given the odds of lasting, probably well before the tenth overall pick, where the Rangers and Blackhawks catch up with all the remaining teams right about 1/16. It is inevitable that they catch up because of their better chance of being pulled out every time.

So instead of the Rangers and Hawks having a 6% chance to get the first pick and everyone else having a 2% chance, they are now on equal footing to get any particular draft pick from here on out, thus offering the Ranger and Hawks no statistical advantage.

It's not inevitable that they catch up other teams. Those two teams might have all their balls left in the end. Odds are that won't happen, but it can still happen. And even if they catch up at when 16 teams are left they would still have that 1/16 chance they had in the lottery that was done the different way! Their chances would be better if they catch up later and worse if they catch up before, obviosly. But when you add up every case it's still the same odds as in the different lottery.

You say Ranger and Hawks have no statistical advantage in your situation. True they don't have advatnage over the theams still remaining, but surely over the teams already eliminated. And those teams could be any teams. This is where the advantage over any other particular teams comes from in the way you are presenting this.
 

CatscratchFever

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Seachd said:
But his way makes sense. Yours falls apart after a team with 3 balls loses one of them on the 30th pick.

Huh? I was arguing that IF my team had multiples(which they dont) 1-30 gives me a better shot than opposite. Which is why i mentioned the lotto ticket simile. Maybe I was misunderstood.
 

Anksun

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It wont be like that but statistically, it wouldnt be that bad of a thing for a 3 balls team.

If one managed to go with 15 teams been pick already with his 3 balls still in, he would be quite in a good position to get a very good draft pick.

After 15 picks, there would be what? 25 balls out. That's about half the balls. You guys makes this sounds like BECAUSE a team have 3 balls, by pick-20th he's gonna be in the same boat with 1 ball remaining. That's as far as logical as you can get.

In fact, i'm not even sure if a system like that wouldnt give the 3-balls teams an improved chance at a top 10 pick... As for the 1st pick, it's gonna be plain and simple luck 1 way or another.

__________________________

You are all focussing on Crosby while with 1 way or another, it wont change a damn thing. It's still gonna be 2% to 6%.
You make it sounds like if a team managed to reach the 1st and 2nd picks with 2 balls, then he's in no advantage over the 1 ball team because his 1st ball is gonna get pick first and then it's 1 on 1. It's bad logic.
Team A: A-A (2 balls)
Team B: B
Possible order: A-B ; B-A ; A-A
2/3 chance for team A to finally win. Just push this kind of logic with 30 teams and you'll realize it doesnt affect the % of a 3 balls team to get a good pick.
 
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mas0764

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MaV said:
It's not inevitable that they catch up other teams. Those two teams might have all their balls left in the end. Odds are that won't happen, but it can still happen. And even if they catch up at when 16 teams are left they would still have that 1/16 chance they had in the lottery that was done the different way! Their chances would be better if they catch up later and worse if they catch up before, obviosly. But when you add up every case it's still the same odds as in the different lottery.

You say Ranger and Hawks have no statistical advantage in your situation. True they don't have advatnage over the theams still remaining, but surely over the teams already eliminated. And those teams could be any teams. This is where the advantage over any other particular teams comes from in the way you are presenting this.


You're looking at it the wrong way.

Certainly, if there are 48 balls, at the beginning of the draft, there can be an equal chance that any one of those 48 balls is the last one drafted. And if you have 3 balls, there is a better chance that you possess that last ball.

But that's not taking into account the changing nature of the lottery.

As I pointed out, bad teams are supposed to pick closer to 1. If you start at one, it becomes harder and harder for the bad teams to keep sliding down the draft board. For example, the Rangers have three balls. Say all the multi-ball teams are gone by ten... and now here we are, still climbing, and we've just draw out the Islanders at 14.

There are now 16 balls left (all multi-ball teams are gone, only single ball teams left).

The Rangers have three of those 16 balls. The chance that they are picked at 15 is quite good, comparitavely. They have a much better chance to go at 15 than all the one-ball teams, and that is as it should be, because the Rangers are a bad team.

If you go backwards, there is the very real scenario that I presented earlier that you get to 17 or 16 (working backwards) and all the multiple balls are eliminated.

Now we are about to pick the 17th pick in the draft, and the Rangers have an equally good shot of landing at 17 as they do 15 or 1 for that matter, as goes EVERYONE ELSE REMAINING.

This isn't fair. By this point in a moving draft, the Rangers have basically been hung out to dry due to bad luck. There advantage has been eliminated, and they are on equal footing now with teams like Detroit and Philly.

The direction matters because you want the advantage to exist for the bad teams when you are picking at the slots they want (ie, the high ones). Not to have that advantage worn down by time you get to 15 or 10.
 

mas0764

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Anksun said:
It wont be like that but statistically, it wouldnt be that bad of a thing for a 3 balls team.

If one managed to go with 15 teams been pick already with his 3 balls still in, he would be quite in a good position to get a very good draft pick.

After 15 picks, there would be what? 25 balls out. That's about half the balls. You guys makes this sounds like BECAUSE a team have 3 balls, by pick-20th he's gonna be in the same boat with 1 ball remaining. That's as far as logical as you can get.

In fact, i'm not even sure if a system like that wouldnt give the 3-balls teams an improved chance at a top 10 pick... As for the 1st pick, it's gonna be plain and simple luck 1 way or another.

__________________________

It doesn't.

You may not be sure, but I am.
 

Seachd

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Why not? It had to be said.

Well, you didn't have to tell me, because I agree it's stupid. Which you'd know if you'd read the thread. You don't always have to be so quick to insult people, especially when they share the same opinion. I like you as a poster, but it gets old when you blast others for no reason.

Vlad The Impaler said:
Hell yes. Another source of amusement and a good way to spot who didn't even bother going to high school.

See above.
 

Anksun

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mschmidt64 said:
It doesn't.

You may not be sure, but I am.

You are not because your example was improbable to say the least. Posting an example in which by pick 16-17, every 3 balls-team is now only standing with 1 is a statistically impossible as seeing them going all 1-2-3 + and so on in the 1-30 order.
 

mas0764

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Anksun said:
You are not because your example was improbable to say the least. Posting an example in which by pick 16-17, every 3 balls-team is now only standing with 1 is a statistically impossible as seeing them going all 1-2-3 + and so on in the 1-30 order.

1) It is definitely not impossible. Nor is it particularly unlikely.

2) So what? You want to play with fire when starting at the front guarantees a statistical advantage to the bad teams? I've proven there are very possible scenarios where the advantage is taken away from the bad teams. There is no way to take away the statistical advantage if you start at the front, where, if you are bad, it becomes more and more likely that you get picked next after each pick is completed. That is how it should be done.

3) And even if starting from the back wasn't worse than starting from the front -- which it is -- I am absolutely sure it is no better.
 

jekoh

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mschmidt64 said:
Starting at the back mitigates the advantage for teams with multiple balls.
It doesn't. Both systems give the teams exactly the same odds of winning the #1 seed.
 
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