MTS Centre Upgrades - Part III

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KingBogo

Admitted Homer
Nov 29, 2011
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KB, I think you're right about the size in regards to seating capacity. Anything larger would result in a downward pressure on ticket prices due to less demand. That would not be a good scenario for TNSE. I think what would be ideal, should a new arena be required down the road in the future, is to build a more spacious facility. I'm not suggesting more seats but rather providing wider seats and more legroom to make it much more comfortable to attend events in the building. One of the main complaints I hear about BellMTS Place is that it feels too cramped.

:jets
Also wider concourse area. The 300 level is very tight during intermissions.
 

ryerockarola

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
6,000
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Shoulders and bellies. He knows that, he's just having some fun. Or maybe he has long legs.
While I'm having a bit of a fun seriously I don't have long legs but rather knee problems and can't sit in those seats comfortably at all. I pity people with longer legs who have expressed their concerns to me while at games.

Shoulders I can get away with but am lucky in that everyone's not the same height so shoulders aren't the same level. Take away every second row of seats and the leg room problem's fixed :) Now that's a joke but why I agreed with the original post.

Take a look at other replies since I made mine: leg room and concourse level space, both of which I agree with. Bluntly, the rink for that amount of people was built on too small of a footprint - ie one city block - for the people inside to be comfortable. To do it right, they would've needed one more city block to be closed imo but that wasn't going to happen.

I like the idea of the Forks for the spacing concerns but for transportation/city buses/downtown rejuvenation they got the location right.
 

ryerockarola

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Nov 20, 2011
6,000
7,586
KB, I think you're right about the size in regards to seating capacity. Anything larger would result in a downward pressure on ticket prices due to less demand. That would not be a good scenario for TNSE. I think what would be ideal, should a new arena be required down the road in the future, is to build a more spacious facility. I'm not suggesting more seats but rather providing wider seats and more legroom to make it much more comfortable to attend events in the building. One of the main complaints I hear about BellMTS Place is that it feels too cramped.

:jets

Agree on everything, especially your last two sentences.
 

blues10

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Dec 10, 2010
7,221
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Canada
Chipman says they don't have any time. Ironically they went and made 20 million this spring and don't have to spend any. What a business to be in.

There will always be about $4-6 milllion in arena upgrades each season whether they are noticeable to the public or not. If TNSE wants to tap the casino revenues at the Shark Club they will be making building improvements. It could be heating or AC upgrades or new pipes leading to the toilets but building improvements will always happpen.
 

Briscodog

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May 2, 2016
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So here's the thing. That arena opened in 2004 and built with 2001 ideas. Now they have done significant upgrades to bring it to more current standards but it won't be long and that rink will be 20 years old. Considering most arena lifespans are 40 years or so I think it would be foolish to think that TNSE doesn't have a plan going forward for a new arena. That would put his arena up for replacing in 2044. With planning underway by 2030 and construction starting by 2040 it's really not that far down the road. I would have thought that there no way they'd move away from their current location
due to TN Square going up but Chipman said on CJOB this week that they wildly underestimated the crowd size for the playoff games and that TN Square clearly isn't big enough to hold viewing parties.

So this brings me to the next question. Where downtown will the next arena go? What space is available? What buildings can be demolished to make a proper arena fit? Is there space at the Forks? Do we all agree it needs to stay downtown?
 

Deedog99

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Nov 22, 2016
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So here's the thing. That arena opened in 2004 and built with 2001 ideas. Now they have done significant upgrades to bring it to more current standards but it won't be long and that rink will be 20 years old. Considering most arena lifespans are 40 years or so I think it would be foolish to think that TNSE doesn't have a plan going forward for a new arena. That would put his arena up for replacing in 2044. With planning underway by 2030 and construction starting by 2040 it's really not that far down the road. I would have thought that there no way they'd move away from their current location
due to TN Square going up but Chipman said on CJOB this week that they wildly underestimated the crowd size for the playoff games and that TN Square clearly isn't big enough to hold viewing parties.

So this brings me to the next question. Where downtown will the next arena go? What space is available? What buildings can be demolished to make a proper arena fit? Is there space at the Forks? Do we all agree it needs to stay downtown?
That plan is already in the works. Hargrove will be closed down and true north will take over city place and build right next door while current arena is in use.
 

sting13

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Jul 30, 2011
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So here's the thing. That arena opened in 2004 and built with 2001 ideas. Now they have done significant upgrades to bring it to more current standards but it won't be long and that rink will be 20 years old. Considering most arena lifespans are 40 years or so I think it would be foolish to think that TNSE doesn't have a plan going forward for a new arena. That would put his arena up for replacing in 2044. With planning underway by 2030 and construction starting by 2040 it's really not that far down the road. I would have thought that there no way they'd move away from their current location
due to TN Square going up but Chipman said on CJOB this week that they wildly underestimated the crowd size for the playoff games and that TN Square clearly isn't big enough to hold viewing parties.

So this brings me to the next question. Where downtown will the next arena go? What space is available? What buildings can be demolished to make a proper arena fit? Is there space at the Forks? Do we all agree it needs to stay downtown?
Will they own the team still in 26 years when the arena will be 40 years old? Thomson will be 87 years old and Chipman 84. It might be that new owners would be building a new arena or heaven forbid 92 year old commissioner Gary Bettman will say with out new owners and a new building we have to move the team.
 
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Briscodog

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May 2, 2016
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158
That plan is already in the works. Hargrove will be closed down and true north will take over city place and build right next door while current arena is in use.

Ok. So tear down City Place and build up? I'm thinking they'd need more space, no? Can they build on the same size foot print and still have an arena with more room? Maybe? I'm not an engineer so maybe someone can help here.
 

ryerockarola

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
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That plan is already in the works. Hargrove will be closed down and true north will take over city place and build right next door while current arena is in use.
Taking over city place is an aggressive plan if that's what true north's is.
 

mondo3

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Jun 4, 2011
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Anaheim
Isn't the city place lot the same size as the mts lot? To build a wider arena, would they not also need the next block? I doubt the city would tear down the library.
 

Deedog99

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Nov 22, 2016
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Isn't the city place lot the same size as the mts lot? To build a wider arena, would they not also need the next block? I doubt the city would tear down the library.
City place lot plus delete Hargrave behind it would be quite a bit wider.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Jun 10, 2014
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Why do you believe, Winnipeg needs an arena with a much larger capacity? Everything would suggest that we probably have close to the ideal size now to keep demand up for tickets. Even now it is relatively easy to pick up game tickets for just about any regular season game. If you have several thousands more seats to fill there will be a downward push on demand and take away the incentive for a lot of people to dig deep for season tickets.

Did he say a 'much' larger capacity?

I agree that you want to maintain a certain scarcity of tickets. About 16,500 is probably right for Wpg but the seats need more space per seat and the non-seating areas need more room.

Winnipeg is growing if you count the bedroom communities in the surrounding area. Think 15-30 years from now. Maybe the need will be for 17,500 seats. Maybe. Some care needs to be taken with that. I think TNSE has proven that it needs to be downtown. Don't be afraid to knock down some existing structures.
 

Yukon Joe

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Aug 3, 2011
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Guys, they're not going to build a brand-new half billion dollar arena just so you can have wider seats and more space on the concourses.

Look, I sure as heck can't predict the future. There may well be some new wave in arena design that invalidates BMP like the way Winnipeg Arena was invaidated (by having lousy sightlines and no luxury boxes).

But given the real estate investments that TNSE has put into place around the arena I think the status quo is going to exist for the forseeable future - continual renovations to the arena to keep it fresh, but the same bones of the arena to continue.
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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Guys, they're not going to build a brand-new half billion dollar arena just so you can have wider seats and more space on the concourses.

Look, I sure as heck can't predict the future. There may well be some new wave in arena design that invalidates BMP like the way Winnipeg Arena was invaidated (by having lousy sightlines and no luxury boxes).

But given the real estate investments that TNSE has put into place around the arena I think the status quo is going to exist for the forseeable future - continual renovations to the arena to keep it fresh, but the same bones of the arena to continue.
The only issue is revenue generation. Eventually (and I think that time has already come), the annual ticket price increase will be beyond what fans will be willing to pay. They may want to look at more seats to bring in more revenue. Or perhaps their non-hockey ventures (hello True North Square) will do that for them.
 

Yukon Joe

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Aug 3, 2011
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The only issue is revenue generation. Eventually (and I think that time has already come), the annual ticket price increase will be beyond what fans will be willing to pay. They may want to look at more seats to bring in more revenue. Or perhaps their non-hockey ventures (hello True North Square) will do that for them.

Except the trend (as seen in part by the Jets) has been for smaller arenas and stadiums, not larger.

LIke I said, maybe the model will change and some new means of revenue generation will come. But if it's just about adding another 1-2,000 seats, the economics just don't work. Those will be the cheapest seats in the house, and they'll never pay off a price of $500 mil or so (thats what Rogers Place in Edmonton cost, and the number they're throwing around in Calgary) even amortized over 30-40 years.
 

ps241

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Mar 10, 2010
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The only issue is revenue generation. Eventually (and I think that time has already come), the annual ticket price increase will be beyond what fans will be willing to pay. They may want to look at more seats to bring in more revenue. Or perhaps their non-hockey ventures (hello True North Square) will do that for them.

Not sure about that really. When Mark addressed this he said the least amount of revenue coming off those the last 2000 seats and it tends to supress demand.

Honestly, I think they built the current arena at the perfect location. None of us really have a crystal ball to look into the future but the more the HRR comes from central sources in the future (National TV deals, National marketing deals, merchandise, other digital platforms for content delivery deals etc etc the less dependant owners will be on gate. I am not sure what arena's will look like in the next 20-25 years but there is a chance TNSE will be able to adapt to the new spectrum of facility demands on the current footprint.

Time will tell.
 
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Spock

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Oct 5, 2017
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The only issue is revenue generation. Eventually (and I think that time has already come), the annual ticket price increase will be beyond what fans will be willing to pay. They may want to look at more seats to bring in more revenue. Or perhaps their non-hockey ventures (hello True North Square) will do that for them.

And lower demand in a small market.

:thumbd:
 

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,100
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Between the Pipes
You think your tickets are expensive now? See what happens to the price if TNSE spends $600MM on a new building. The ticket price increase that was passed on to the STHs in Edmonton when they moved into their new digs was insane. And the same thing would happen here... except it probably would result in a huge backlash more so here.

As others have said and IMO I fully believe this... the Jets are approaching the tipping point that this market will bare. Annual ticket increases and now a playoff run that shown just how much of a ticket price jump the Jets attempted. People want the NHL, but you can only price it so high in this market. And more seats in a new arena isn't going to solve the revenue problem. More seats just give people a cheaper alternative.

Nothing wrong with keeping the arena right where it is and just making renovations as required. Kind of like Madison Square Gardens in NY. There is no place to ever build another arena where they are located, so they just keep renovating the inside.
 

bustamente

Kinda Optimistic
Jun 29, 2015
40,800
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Outside Looking In
Who know what the sports landscape will be around the world in the next 20-30 years, no sense worrying about a new arena this one is perfect for the size of this market and as long as they keep refreshing it every 5-8 years it could out last the majority of us.
 

Gm0ney

Unicorns salient
Oct 12, 2011
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Winnipeg
As Yukon Joe said, BMP is pretty much up to current - and foreseeable future - arena design standards. It's owned by TNSE and has all the streams of revenue you could ask for (except parking, but that's not likely with a downtown arena in any event). The cost of buying and demolishing City Place or Portage Place and then building a new arena for a marginal gain (more cheap seats, more legroom, more concourse room, more concession variety) just doesn't make financial sense...even if government is footing a big part of the bill.

Winnipeg Arena needed to be replaced in 1979. It was a retrofitted mess that was owned by the City of Winnipeg, not the team. There was no chance for them to ever turn a decent profit there. Ironically, if they'd built a new arena in 1979 it would've been before the luxury suite revolution, and the city would've needed a new one by now anyway.
 

robertocarlos

Registered User
Sep 19, 2014
24,470
12,260
Tearing down City Place and building a new arena there is not such a bad idea. You only need the one lane for traffic depending on the loading zone access for TNS. If trucks can turn into TNS. So you have wider and you could take a lane of Donald Street as well. Build over the lanes and you can go even wider. Maybe you can go deeper. And anything in the mall that is important can be located elsewhere. There is nothing important in the mall.
 

Gm0ney

Unicorns salient
Oct 12, 2011
14,428
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Winnipeg
Tearing down City Place and building a new arena there is not such a bad idea. You only need the one lane for traffic depending on the loading zone access for TNS. If trucks can turn into TNS. So you have wider and you could take a lane of Donald Street as well. Build over the lanes and you can go even wider. Maybe you can go deeper. And anything in the mall that is important can be located elsewhere. There is nothing important in the mall.
The assessed value of the City Place property is $85M. Then you have to demolish everything on it...so another $2.5M at least. Then you have to build a new arena. Low end is, what, half-a-billion right now? So we're looking at $600,000,000 probably at the minimum. Plus you close down Hargrave between Graham and St. Mary and I still don't think that site is bigger than the current site (City Place + Hargrave plus all but one lane of Donald = 108m x 150m; current arena: 93.5m x 150m (avg - it's not exactly a rectangle)).
 

Yukon Joe

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Aug 3, 2011
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YWG -> YXY -> YEG
And lower demand in a small market.

:thumbd:

Just because I can't resist tweaking a poster with the username Spock:

More seats do not reduce demand. Instead it increases supply while demand remains constant, which means you move down the demand curve to lower prices.

incrsupplyeq.jpg
 
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