Moving affiliates closer to parent

DowntownBooster

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it is more complicated then just distance. Having your AHL team too close can over saturate the market and put the team further into the red. While in theory NHL fans will say "of course we would go watch our AHL prospects but in reality many fans would not for lots of different reason.

Then there is the pressure cooker nhl cities--I will use my oilers as an example--having the AHL team close to the city when the team is sucking--no matter how good the AHL team is--a player gets called up--****s the bed and gets sent back down--the media and fans rip him--he has nowhere to hide to rebuild his confidence

Depends a lot on the particular market. Here in Winnipeg, it's the more affluent fans that attend Jets games due to the high ticket prices whereas those with less disposable income are able to attend Manitoba Moose games. Both options allow fans here the opportunity to support the Winnipeg Jets. It works great for the Moose players as well since they don't have to look for different living quarters if they're called up to the Jets for a few games. Although having the NHL and AHL in the same market (or nearby) may not work out in some situations, it has been working well in Winnipeg so far.

:jets
 
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LadyStanley

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Another factor is direct or non-stop flights - Springfield uses the Hartford airport which has several daily non-stops to FLL and MIA. Utica to Vancouver is a major headache as is Edmonton/Bakersfield and Calgary/Stockton.

Bakersfield - fly out of LAX. There's train service that almost as fast as driving to the airport.
Google Maps

Or take hopper from Bakersfield to other major hub. (But you can get to just about anywhere in 1-2 hops from LAX)

Yes, Stockton could fly out of Sacramento (about 30 minutes away), but it's a straight shot driving to OAK (or SJC, SFO). And if you're on the road by 5am, you'll probably miss a bunch of traffic. (There's also train service to SJ)
 

Stumbledore

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Another factor is direct or non-stop flights - Springfield uses the Hartford airport which has several daily non-stops to FLL and MIA. Utica to Vancouver is a major headache as is Edmonton/Bakersfield and Calgary/Stockton.

The NHL really doesn't care about loyal AHL markets who suddenly wound up with ECHL teams but fans used to the AHL want nothing to do with the ECHL.

Your post reminds me of the time that the Jets' AHL team was based in Newfoundland. The parent club was in California on a three game road trip and lost two players to injury in the first game. I don't recall the details but the Jets tried to call up players from the farm and the logistics of getting them from St. John's to Anaheim were totally bizarre. There's no such thing as a direct flight from The Rock to the Wet Coast.
 

Centrum Hockey

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Another factor is direct or non-stop flights - Springfield uses the Hartford airport which has several daily non-stops to FLL and MIA. Utica to Vancouver is a major headache as is Edmonton/Bakersfield and Calgary/Stockton.

The NHL really doesn't care about loyal AHL markets who suddenly wound up with ECHL teams but fans used to the AHL want nothing to do with the ECHL.
AA Hockey Means significantly less to the nhl than AA baseball does to MLB it shows how some Markets Reacted to the ECHL both Norfolk VA and Manchester NH won a Calder cup in the past ten years
Manchester Monarchs [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
Norfolk Admirals [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
both these markets also have Minor League baseball teams that have almost twice the attendance
Eastern League Attendance | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball
International League Attendance | International League Stats
 
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garnetpalmetto

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AA Hockey Means significantly less to the nhl than AA baseball does to MLB it shows how some Markets Reacted to the ECHL both Norfolk VA and Manchester NH won a Calder cup in the past ten years
Manchester Monarchs [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
Norfolk Admirals [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
both these markets also have AA baseball teams that have almost twice the attendance
Eastern League Attendance | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball

Not quite. Norfolk doesn't have a Double-A team. The Tides are Triple-A.
 

Fenway

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Your post reminds me of the time that the Jets' AHL team was based in Newfoundland. The parent club was in California on a three game road trip and lost two players to injury in the first game. I don't recall the details but the Jets tried to call up players from the farm and the logistics of getting them from St. John's to Anaheim were totally bizarre. There's no such thing as a direct flight from The Rock to the Wet Coast.

There are 5 AM flights from St John's to Toronto ( which in itself is 3 1/2 hours) but many of them are delayed or canceled because of fog.
 

BattleBorn

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AA Hockey Means significantly less to the nhl than AA baseball does to MLB it shows how some Markets Reacted to the ECHL both Norfolk VA and Manchester NH won a Calder cup in the past ten years
Manchester Monarchs [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
Norfolk Admirals [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
both these markets also have AA baseball teams that have almost twice the attendance
Eastern League Attendance | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball
It's tough to compare AA Baseball and ECHL hockey. AA is an integral part of MLB player development since there's so many prospects in baseball and they need places for people to play while they develop. You can have a great prospect stuck in AA while the players above him get processed through the system.

On the other hand, an ECHL player making it to the NHL is kind of the exception to the rule. I read somewhere that like 10% of players on NHL rosters have ECHL tenure. Many of those are goalies, where there's a similar situation to baseball and there's a very limited number of roster spots for a position with a decent number of prospects and has a longer lead time to develop to major league talent than forwards or dmen.

It's just two different development pipelines.
 
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Fenway

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AA Hockey Means significantly less to the nhl than AA baseball does to MLB it shows how some Markets Reacted to the ECHL both Norfolk VA and Manchester NH won a Calder cup in the past ten years
Manchester Monarchs [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
Norfolk Admirals [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
both these markets also have Minor League baseball teams that have almost twice the attendance
Eastern League Attendance | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball
International League Attendance | International League Stats

Manchester drew very well in the AHL when the franchise started in 2001 but finally settled into a 5 to 6,000 a game average.

Manchester Monarchs [AHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

The first year in the ECHL they dropped to 4662 a game and the last 2 years it just collapsed. Besides the quality of play was the quirky ECHL schedule where you could see a team like Greenville come in for 3 games in 3 nights. Now with Portland in the league, the schedule will be better.

Portland welcomes back pro hockey, ECHL style

AA in baseball is a launching pad to the majors. Many prospects go directly from AA to the show and skip AAA altogether. In hockey that isn't the case.
 
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Centrum Hockey

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Manchester drew very well in the AHL when the franchise started in 2001 but finally settled into a 5 to 6,000 a game average.

Manchester Monarchs [AHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

The first year in the ECHL they dropped to 4662 a game and the last 2 years it just collapsed. Besides the quality of play was the quirky ECHL schedule where you could see a team like Greenville come in for 3 games in 3 nights. Now with Portland in the league, the schedule will be better.

Portland welcomes back pro hockey, ECHL style

AA in baseball is a launching pad to the majors. Many prospects go directly from AA to the show and skip AAA altogether. In hockey that isn't the case.
the bruins ECHL affiliate being in Atlanta GA didn't Help the Echl New England Teams. in the Pre 2015 New England ahl division a lot of Bruins fans went to Worcester/NH/Portland to see the p-Bruins when they where the away Team.
 
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Centrum Hockey

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Vancouver and Tampa Bay are mulling their future affiliation locations. Why? Some teams have really long tethers for call ups.

So, Florida and Tampa might want to have a mini clump of AHL teams in Florida, and Vancouver might consider moving their franchise west.

As of the start of the 18-19 season, here are the (approximate) distances between parent and affiliate

Distances kinda calculated as arena-to-arena

San Jose Sharks/Barracuda and Winnipeg Jets/Manitoba Moose = 0 miles
Toronto Maple Leafs/Marlies = 2.5 miles
Montreal Canadians/Laval Rocket = 15 miles

The above could definitely induce folks to live in one place between teams.

Los Angeles Kings/Ontario Reign = 45 miles (but up to 90 minutes away)
Colorado Avalanche/Colorado Eagles = 50 miles (but 60+ minutes)
Boston Bruins/Providence Bruins = 51 miles (but easily 60+ minutes)
Philadelphia Flyers/Leigh Valley Phantoms = 68 miles
New York Islanders/Bridgeport Soundtigers = ~70 miles
Buffalo Sabres/Rochester Americans = 76 miles
Chicago Blackhawks/Rockford Hogs = 89 miles
Anaheim Ducks/San Diego Gulls = 90 miles

Now we're up to more in the range of "easy call up", but not necessarily conducive to sleeping in your own bed range.

New York Rangers/Hartford Wolf Pack = 120 miles
Ottawa Senators/Bellville Senators = 127 miles
Arizona Coyotes/Tuscon Roadrunners = 131 miles
Washington Capitals/Hershey Bears = 134 miles
Columbus Blue Jackets/Cleveland Monsters = 144 miles
Detroit Red Wings/Grand Rapids Griffins = 158 miles
Carolina Hurricanes/Charlotte Checkers = 163 miles
New Jersey/Binghampton Devils = 168 miles
Dallas/Texas Stars = 182

2-3 hours travel time, not counting traffic or weather.

Minnesota/Iowa Wild = 246
Pittsburgh/WBS Penguins = 270

Long day of travel by car. Flying faster.

Nashville Predators/Milwaukee Admirals = 567
St Louis Blues/San Antonio Rampage = 900
Tampa Bay Lightning/Syracuse Crunch = 1268
Calgary Flames/Stockton Heat = 1294
Florida Panthers/Springfield Thunderbirds = 1391
Edmonton Oilers/Bakersfield Condors = 1742
Vegas Golden Knights/Chicago Wolves = 1758
Vancouver Canucks/Utica Comets = 2903

The last are gotta-fly-crazy-to-drive up to full-day-of-travel.
Tampa Had a closer AHL affiliation but they yanked the affiliation because Norfolk Was to far way from the other ahl teams
 

garnetpalmetto

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Manchester drew very well in the AHL when the franchise started in 2001 but finally settled into a 5 to 6,000 a game average.

Manchester Monarchs [AHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

The first year in the ECHL they dropped to 4662 a game and the last 2 years it just collapsed. Besides the quality of play was the quirky ECHL schedule where you could see a team like Greenville come in for 3 games in 3 nights. Now with Portland in the league, the schedule will be better.

Portland welcomes back pro hockey, ECHL style

AA in baseball is a launching pad to the majors. Many prospects go directly from AA to the show and skip AAA altogether. In hockey that isn't the case.

That kind of depends on the organization and both the geography and conditions of their Triple-A affiliate. Here in Durham, for instance, we get all of Tampa's top prospects. Longoria, Price, Archer, Cobb, Hellickson, etc. all played in Durham. Meanwhile let's go one team over - from 2003 until 2008 the Carolina Mudcats were the Double-A affiliate of the Marlins and the Marlins treated them as their top affiliate rather than their real Triple-A team, Albuquerque. A good bit of that was probably geography (it's easier to get to Miami from Raleigh than it is to get there from Albuquerque). Teams that affiliated with Las Vegas, for instance, meanwhile, were sometimes hesitant to put their top prospects there owing to the conditions at Cashman Field (no weight room, no batting tunnel, etc).
 

tony d

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Makes plenty of sense to me. It cost us an AHL team here in Newfoundland but it still makes sense to have your farm team close to your actual team.
 

LadyStanley

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Las Vegas is opening new minor league ballpark next year. Should have all the bells and whistles for MLB Oakland's kids.
 

StreetHawk

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When will we hear from the AHL regarding team #32 from them? Next summer?
Nothing yet.

Ahl affiliations seems on several factors.

Distance or ease to get a player to the NHL team. As mentioned Chicago is a major hub so there are several flights to most major cities ina day. Or the player may drive if the 2 cities are in the same state or province.

Teams carry 23 players so normally you don’t need the callnup to play should you have back to back games.

Financial, regardless of where the ahl team is located it has to be financially viable. For Vancouver, the WHL Giants play in Langley and they are drawing about 3,000 a game. If the Canucks moves their farm team to BC what is their break even point for attendance?

As well for the business side, AHL generally play 3 in 3 on the weekends. So, if Vancouver plays on Saturday would that impact their ahl team if they are home at the time time. Cause they would need to coordinate schedules to both not be home at the same time if it impacts the AHL business.

Facilities of the farm club city.
 

royals119

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When will we hear from the AHL regarding team #32 from them? Next summer?
Assuming Seattle NHL will play in 2020. If they are going to share an affiliation, or spread their players around to different teams, or affiliate with an existing team that someone else is splitting from, or buy out an ECHL or junior team and replace them with an AHL team, then it very likely won't be announced until the middle of the season before it happens. (January 2020ish). The existing team won't want to turn off their fans for the 2019-2020 season by announcing before it starts that they are moving up, switching affiliates, selling, whatever. If the Seattle owners are going to buy the expansion franchise and locate it somewhere that doesn't currently have a team, and they want to have a promotional period to build up excitement for their new AHL team, then it would probably start happening about a year prior to the team coming into being (Summer 2019)
 

KevFu

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If the Seattle owners are going to buy the expansion franchise and locate it somewhere that doesn't currently have a team, and they want to have a promotional period to build up excitement for their new AHL team, then it would probably start happening about a year prior to the team coming into being (Summer 2019)

I'd imagine they go Year One of NHL team sharing an AHL affiliate, like Vegas did. Because with juniors, the injured guys you take on via trade and only one draft, you don't really have enough players to stock your own team yet. It's an extra expense for no reason.
 

KevFu

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Financial, regardless of where the ahl team is located it has to be financially viable. For Vancouver, the WHL Giants play in Langley and they are drawing about 3,000 a game. If the Canucks moves their farm team to BC what is their break even point for attendance?

Yes and no. A sunken cost of is acceptable for NHL teams owning their AHL affiliates. Losing money isn’t a problem IF the location is well worth it to you.

Like San Jose Barricuda are drawing 4,000 a game (22nd to 24th by ranking). And I’m sure they don’t really care because they’ve got their AHL guys practicing with the NHL guys when both are in town; and therefore being on the same page when they’re called up. San Jose isn’t going to say “We’re going to move our AHL team to St. John’s because their last AHL franchise drew 6,000.”

You're probably not going to see an AHL team hemorrhaging cash to the point that their NHL owners say "We gotta move them."


AHL teams not known by NHL teams... it's a heck of a lot more important to make some money.
 
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BattleBorn

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I'd imagine they go Year One of NHL team sharing an AHL affiliate, like Vegas did. Because with juniors, the injured guys you take on via trade and only one draft, you don't really have enough players to stock your own team yet. It's an extra expense for no reason.
Exactly. While AHL teams have some value, it's not like an NHL team. There's no real rush to grab team 32 at the first possible opportunity just because there's a 32nd team available in expansion. If you don't get the fresh AHL expansion, you could likely get your own team via purchase fairly quickly and move it to wherever you want within short order.

In fact, I'd say finding an arena in a place somewhere you'd want an AHL team (if not the place it already resides) is more difficult than acquiring an AHL franchise.

I mean no disrespect with this statement, but the Arizona Coyotes purchased and moved an AHL team while they were supposedly "in the midst" of a crisis. It's not really that huge an issue.
 

AdmiralsFan24

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Seattle is going to have to share with someone their first year because they aren't going to have enough prospects to fill out their own team.
 

Centrum Hockey

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Yes and no. A sunken cost of is acceptable for NHL teams owning their AHL affiliates. Losing money isn’t a problem IF the location is well worth it to you.

Like San Jose Barricuda are drawing 4,000 a game (22nd to 24th by ranking). And I’m sure they don’t really care because they’ve got their AHL guys practicing with the NHL guys when both are in town; and therefore being on the same page when they’re called up. San Jose isn’t going to say “We’re going to move our AHL team to St. John’s because their last AHL franchise drew 6,000.”

You're probably not going to see an AHL team hemorrhaging cash to the point that their NHL owners say "We gotta move them."


AHL teams not known by NHL teams... it's a heck of a lot more important to make some money.
San Jose didn’t care about makeing money or haveing good attendance in Worcester either the sharks are like the west coast devils when It comes to minor league parent clubs New Jersey has a rough history of minor league teams Trenton Titans - Wikipedia https://thehockeywriters.com/what-killed-the-ahl-in-albany/
 

LadyStanley

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As well for the business side, AHL generally play 3 in 3 on the weekends. So, if Vancouver plays on Saturday would that impact their ahl team if they are home at the time time. Cause they would need to coordinate schedules to both not be home at the same time if it impacts the AHL business.

Excluding the Pacific division. With 68 game schedule, they do not have 3 in 3 schedules.

More likely to want to have teams near major hubs so call ups can get to where they need to.

I'd imagine they go Year One of NHL team sharing an AHL affiliate, like Vegas did. Because with juniors, the injured guys you take on via trade and only one draft, you don't really have enough players to stock your own team yet. It's an extra expense for no reason.

Seattle is going to have to share with someone their first year because they aren't going to have enough prospects to fill out their own team.

Yes, they won't have the (drafted) prospects old enough and in quantity to fill an AHL roster. But there are other sources (prospect free agent signings, trade acquisitions and expansion draft) as well. You can stock a full AHL team with journeymen/veterans, signed from free agency (at least for the first year or so).

FWIW, the current make up of the AHL Chicago Wolves includes:
2 draftees (19 year old European stud D men), 16 free agent signings (prospects and journeymen), 1 trade, 1 expansion draft. (Only 4 AHL contracts.)

Like San Jose Barricuda are drawing 4,000 a game (22nd to 24th by ranking). And I’m sure they don’t really care because they’ve got their AHL guys practicing with the NHL guys when both are in town; and therefore being on the same page when they’re called up. San Jose isn’t going to say “We’re going to move our AHL team to St. John’s because their last AHL franchise drew 6,000.”

Nope. NHL and AHL teams do NOT practice together. Not allowed. Must have separate facilities for practice, training. The AHL Barracuda practice facility is adjacent (literally) but separate from NHL Sharks facility. They don't even use the same locker rooms at the arena. (Now the NHL medical suite just off the ice IS used for AHL games, but that's for convenience.)

Excluding fan fest, it's rare for the AHL and NHL players to mix for any charity or social event. (There was a black tie dinner for the Sharks 25th anniversary. The AHL guys were invited and seated at tables at the back. But otherwise they weren't acknowledged. And when AHL coach Sommer made a new AHL record of games won, his accomplishment was celebrated at a Sharks game.) Heck, the mascots rarely mix either (excluding each others' birthday celebrations).
 
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