More points this season Crosby vs Ovi

[Sam Spade]

How Ovechkin has more MVP’s than Sid?

As far as I know both have 4 MVP (season + playoff combined), so try again.

And the fact that you value goals higher than points is purely subjective. Yes Ovy has more goals than Crosby, but Crosby has a better PPG and never produced under a ppg throughout is career. Can’t say the same with Ovechkin

Sid is the better hockey player in terms of all around game and has been a more consistent offensive player for the last 13 years.

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Even in Ovechkin's alleged "down" seasons he CONSISTENTLY scored 30 plus goals. 14 consecutive years worth to be exact of consistent offense to be exact.

Since Alex Ovechkin came in to the NHL 36 total players, over 14 seasons, have scored more goals than Ovechkin in a single season. 25 of those players came in two seasons ('11, '17). So basically Ovechkin versus the entire NHL for 14 seasons and only 36 guys have been able to best him over his career.

 

[Habs10025]

Possession is fantastic if it leads to something.

Who created more goals between the two since "Ovechkin's peak":

'18-'19 - Ovechkin, so far
'17-'18 - Ovechkin
'16-'17 - Crosby (led NHL)
'15-'16 - Tie
'14-'15 - Ovechkin (led NHL)
'13-'14 - Crosby (led NHL)
'12-'13 - Ovechkin (led NHL)

In their careers Ovechkin has led the NHL in goals created five times, Crosby twice.

Also, why is so hard to admit that Ovechkin has been the better player of the two the last two seasons, when he clearly has?

Using your logic Brett Hull would be a top ten player of all time . The truth is no one would ever suggest that because he isn't close to being one of the top 10 players of all time despite being one of the best goal scores . Who was the better player Kurri or Messier ? Kurri was the better goal scorer but everyone knows Messier was the better player.
Who was the better player Brett Hull or Steve Yzerman ? Hull was the better goal scorer but Yzerman was the better player. Who was the better player Pavel Bure or Peter Forsberg ? Bure was the better goal scorer and Forsberg was the better player .

Crosby is the better player and Crosby is having a better career.

 

[Sam Spade]

Crosby is the better player and Crosby is having a better career.

Respectfully, I disagree.

Crosby has been on better teams, Ovechkin has had the better individual career and all the numbers are on Ovechkin's side, except of course the vaunted PPG.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Who suggested Crosby was the better goal scorer ? Crosby is the better player and is having a better career.

That's fine if you value secondary assists more than goals. You are entitled to your opinion. It's an opinion that is impossible to back up, utterly contradicted by the data, and wildly misguided, but you are entitled none the less.

Ovechkin is the better player and is having the better career.

 

[daver]

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Even in Ovechkin's alleged "down" seasons he CONSISTENTLY scored 30 plus goals. 14 consecutive years worth to be exact of consistent offense to be exact.

Since Alex Ovechkin came in to the NHL 36 total players, over 14 seasons, have scored more goals than Ovechkin in a single season. 25 of those players came in two seasons ('11, '17). So basically Ovechkin versus the entire NHL for 14 seasons and only 36 guys have been able to best him over his career.

They are down years in comparison to what he what he did at his peak and in comparison to Crosby. A few of his Rocket wins didn't propel him to the top of the league while almost everyone of Crosby's Top 3 Art Ross finishes did.

 

[daver]

Respectfully, I disagree.

Crosby has been on better teams, Ovechkin has had the better individual career and all the numbers are on Ovechkin's side, except of course the vaunted PPG.

Except Hart and Lindsay voting hardly put OV ahead at all.

It is indisputable that Crosby contributed more to his team's success than OV did. There is zero argument to be made against that.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It is indisputable that Crosby contributed more to his team's success than OV did. There is zero argument to be made against that.

You are absolutely wrong.

Ovechkin has contributed 200+ more goals, and even by the (arbitrary) points argument, Ovechkin has more through 13.5 years of their prime.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Using your logic Brett Hull would be a top ten player of all time.

That is absolutely false.

Hull lead the NHL in goals created all of twice.

 

[Sam Spade]

Except Hart and Lindsay voting hardly put OV ahead at all.

It is indisputable that Crosby contributed more to his team's success than OV did. There is zero argument to be made against that.

Evgeni Malkin.

 

[Hippasus]

Why is it amazing, he's a center. They're both relatively the same age, meanwhile Ovechkin will be the oldest goal scoring champion in NHL history. Ovechkin had a better season last year and they'll be neck and neck this year.

Last season, at age 32, Ovechkin became the oldest player to win a Rocket or retro-Rocket. Previously, Esposito with his retro-Rocket from 74-75 held this minor record.

 

[Habs10025]

That is absolutely false.

Hull lead the NHL in goals created all of twice.

He also scored over 70 + goals three consecutive seasons and has over 740 goals and isn't considered to be a better player than Yzerman because being a better goal scorer doesn't mean your a better player.

Messier was better than Kurri , Yzerman was better than Hull , Forsberg was better Bure .

Messier, Yzerman , Forsberg had better careers than Kurri , Hull , Bure.

Crosby is the better player Crosby is having a better career.

 

[TheGuiminator]

The Conn Smythe is a far lesser trophy than the Hart because it's basically the best player from two teams (really 1 team) whereas the Hart is the most valuable player in the world.

Crosby deserved one of the CS's, and the other was a complete disaster where it was gifted to him out of raging bias (much like some of his secondary assists). Crosby had 19 points and 6 goals in 24 games while playing crappy defense as a minus player. The Penguins were net losing with Crosby on the ice and he was a complete no-show in their most difficult series (against the Capitals) scoring a paltry 2 secondary assists - 1 even strength point in 6 games. That's a 65 point / 21 goal / negative 8 pace, and you are arguing that this is on the level with Ovechkin's 65 goal / 112 point season or Ovechkin's 56 goal / 110 point season.

^^^That is beyond absurd.

There is absolutely no case for Crosby over Logan Couture. And to a lesser (but still substantial) extent Letang was also better than Crosby, as was Phil Kessel.

Ovechkin has 3 Harts. Crosby has 2.



It is absolutely not subjective. Primary assists are a legit stat. Secondary assists are noise. Garbage. Virtually meaningless.

In order to realize that you would have to comprehend the data, and the game.

Some NHL Stars Get More Assists At Home Than They Deserve

Simplify scoring: drop the pointless secondary assist

https://www.tsn.ca/the-noise-surrounding-secondary-assists-1.1134501

The Second Assist: Statistic or Gift?

Conn Smythe trophy according to hockey reference :
« Most Valuable Player in the Stanley Cup Playoffs »

Whether you like it or not, the Conn Smythe IS an MVP trophy, so it does count on a player’s MVP trophies list. You claim that Crosby didn’t deserve the Conn Smythe in 2016, I agree, but the fact is, he still won it, you can’t take that away from him. By the way, every MVP trophies have media bias, that’s the way it is.

And what’s the point about secondary assists? Everybody can get them, yes even Ovechkin. Secondary assists arent a Crosby privilege. FYI, did you know that Crosby has more primary points than Ovechkin (per game basis) ? So your idea that Crosby’s offensive production relies only on secondary assists doesn’t make sense.

 

[TheGuiminator]

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Even in Ovechkin's alleged "down" seasons he CONSISTENTLY scored 30 plus goals. 14 consecutive years worth to be exact of consistent offense to be exact.

Since Alex Ovechkin came in to the NHL 36 total players, over 14 seasons, have scored more goals than Ovechkin in a single season. 25 of those players came in two seasons ('11, '17). So basically Ovechkin versus the entire NHL for 14 seasons and only 36 guys have been able to best him over his career.

As great as Ovechkin has been when it comes to goal scoring, I think :

14 consecutive seasons with over a point per game > 14 consecutive seasons with +30 goals

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Last season, at age 32, Ovechkin became the oldest player to win a Rocket or retro-Rocket. Previously, Esposito with his retro-Rocket from 74-75 held this minor record.

That’s cool. Ovechkin has been winning rockets with 79 and 71 point seasons. Cute

 

[Midnight Judges]

Conn Smythe trophy according to hockey reference :
« Most Valuable Player in the Stanley Cup Playoffs »

Whether you like it or not, the Conn Smythe IS an MVP trophy, so it does count on a player’s MVP trophies list.

Right, and Deion Branch's MVP is right there with Peyton Manning's.

 

[Sam Spade]

As great as Ovechkin has been when it comes to goal scoring, I think :

14 consecutive seasons with over a point per game > 14 consecutive seasons with +30 goals

Not to me it isn't. Especially when you have played almost two seasons more than the other guy.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He also scored over 70 + goals three consecutive seasons and has over 740 goals and isn't considered to be a better player than Yzerman because being a better goal scorer doesn't mean your a better player.

Messier was better than Kurri , Yzerman was better than Hull , Forsberg was better Bure .

Messier, Yzerman , Forsberg had better careers than Kurri , Hull , Bure.

Crosby is the better player Crosby is having a better career.

Messier has more career goals created than Kurri. By far.

Yzerman has more career goals created than Brett Hull.

You don't know what you're talking about, and you don't have a point.

 

[Habs10025]

Messier has more career goals created than Kurri. By far.

Yzerman has more career goals created than Brett Hull.

You don't know what you're talking about, and you don't have a point.

Look at the number of games played Messier was not a better goal scorer than Kurri but was the better player no one that knows hockey will say other wise . Steve Yzerman did not score more goals than Brett Hull but just like Messier Yzerman was the better player. Check the stats again .
Don't respond or post to me again.
Crosby is the better player Crosby is having a better career.

 

[daver]

Evgeni Malkin.

What does this have to do with Crosby being the clearly better playoff performer than OV. Crosby has the higher PPG in a lot more games played to boot.

There is no argument.

 

[Regal]

Possession is fantastic if it leads to something.

Who created more goals between the two since "Ovechkin's peak":

'18-'19 - Ovechkin, so far
'17-'18 - Ovechkin
'16-'17 - Crosby (led NHL)
'15-'16 - Tie
'14-'15 - Ovechkin (led NHL)
'13-'14 - Crosby (led NHL)
'12-'13 - Ovechkin (led NHL)

In their careers Ovechkin has led the NHL in goals created five times, Crosby twice.

Also, why is so hard to admit that Ovechkin has been the better player of the two the last two seasons, when he clearly has?

This is exactly my point. Caps fans are obsessed with production above all else. Possession can lead to goals even if you don't get a point on them, helps wear teams down for other lines to take advantage, and it also helps prevent goals against by keeping the puck away from other teams. It's one of the reasons MJs ideas on secondary assists are bunk because it treats all players the same and doesn't give play drivers their due. Secondary assists might not be as valuable, but they're not noise. Things like controlled zone entries, puck retreivals, battling in the corner and getting it to a teammate. These things help maintain possession and lead to more opportunities for your team even if you're not the goalscorer or primary playmaker, and they're all things Crosby does better. Crosby has a nearly 70% GF% this season with a similar PDO to Ovechkin. Ovechkin has a 56% GF%. Ovechkin was better last year. He hasn't been better this year to anyone who actually pays attention beyond circle jerking over goals.

 

[Sam Spade]

What does this have to do with Crosby being the clearly better playoff performer than OV. Crosby has the higher PPG in a lot more games played to boot.

There is no argument.

You never mentioned the playoffs in your post. And the Pens have a player who has been just as good or better in some seasons than Crosby in their playoff years. In 2016 there were actually three, maybe four (if you count Murray), Pens who were better than Crosby, even if you won't admit it.

PPG seems to be the only argument any one really has for Crosby, which is pretty telling for the "best player of his generation".

 

[Sam Spade]

This is exactly my point. Caps fans are obsessed with production above all else. Possession can lead to goals even if you don't get a point on them, helps wear teams down for other lines to take advantage, and it also helps prevent goals against by keeping the puck away from other teams. It's one of the reasons MJs ideas on secondary assists are bunk because it treats all players the same and doesn't give play drivers their due. Crosby has a nearly 70% GF% this season with a similar PDO to Ovechkin. Ovechkin has a 56% GF%. Ovechkin was better last year. He hasn't been better this year to anyone who actually pays attention beyond circle jerking over goals.

Prove it.

Goals are the name of the game and the ultimate barometer of how successful a player is during his time on the ice.

 

[Regal]

Prove it.

Goals are the name of the game and the ultimate barometer of how successful a player is during his time on the ice.

Seriously? Watch a game. Like this is basic, fundamental stuff on how the game works. It's absolutely mind boggling to me that people can watch hockey regularly and believe this.

 

[illpucks]

This is exactly my point. Caps fans are obsessed with production above all else. Possession can lead to goals even if you don't get a point on them, helps wear teams down for other lines to take advantage, and it also helps prevent goals against by keeping the puck away from other teams. It's one of the reasons MJs ideas on secondary assists are bunk because it treats all players the same and doesn't give play drivers their due. Secondary assists might not be as valuable, but they're not noise. Things like controlled zone entries, puck retreivals, battling in the corner and getting it to a teammate. These things help maintain possession and lead to more opportunities for your team even if you're not the goalscorer or primary playmaker, and they're all things Crosby does better. Crosby has a nearly 70% GF% this season with a similar PDO to Ovechkin. Ovechkin has a 56% GF%. Ovechkin was better last year. He hasn't been better this year to anyone who actually pays attention beyond circle jerking over goals.

Ovi is better as a complete player and is actually more dynamic. For several years he had a problem with stickhandling defenders. He's smarter now in those situations and is using his elite playmaking talent more. From playoffs last season-now he's been at a higher level than his 49 goal season. He's the most complete he has ever been and he is solid at every aspect of the game and his defense is pretty good.

 

[Sam Spade]

Seriously? Watch a game. Like this is basic, fundamental stuff on how the game works. It's absolutely mind boggling to me that people can watch hockey regularly and believe this.

I watch more games than anyone on this site I bet.

I see a hard working shift draw penalties but I don't see much correlation to a hard working shift leading to a goal five or ten shifts later. Zero ways to measure that.