More Kessel vs. Toews debate..

Status
Not open for further replies.

MN_Gopher

Registered User
May 2, 2002
3,628
21
Mpls
Visit site
jake1 said:
Toews finally got a break in mid-February, his first break since the WJC. Here's what he's done since:

02/17/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
02/18/06 2-1-3 Minnesota-Duluth
02/24/06 2-0-2 @ Denver
02/25/06 1-0-1 @ Denver
03/03/06 1-2-3 Michigan Tech
03/04/06 0-1-1 Michigan Tech
03/10/06 0-0-0 Minnesota State
03/11/06 1-0-1 Minnesota State
03/12/06 0-0-0 Minnesota State
03/17/06 0-1-1 Wisconsin
03/18/06 1-2-3 St. Cloud State
03/24/06 1-1-2 Michigan
03/25/06 1-2-3 Holy Cross

That's 10-10-20 in 13 games.

Here's PK in the same time period:

02/17/06 0-1-1 Denver
02/18/06 0-3-3 Denver
02/24/06 0-3-3 @ Alaska-Anchorage
02/25/06 1-0-1 @ Alaska-Anchorage
03/03/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
03/04/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
03/10/06 1-1-2 Alaska-Anchorage
03/11/06 2-1-3 Alaska-Anchorage
03/17/06 0-3-3 St. Cloud State
03/18/06 0-0-0 Wisconsin
03/24/06 1-0-1 Holy Cross

That's 5-12-17 in 11 games, against a very similar schedule.

The numbers now support a claim that Toews rivals Kessel offensively. And it's not just numbers. Anyone watching can see that Toews is a great offensive player too. I agree that Kessel will always have the speed advantage though.

Hey VOB are you meaning this end to the season? Thats 1.55 points per gmae for Kessel and 1.54 ppg for Toews. Wow thats a huge difference. I see where Toews had head and shoulders surpassed Kessel in points now.

And how soon we forget that last year in the u18s. Kessles line 9 goals and 7 assists. One goal on the PP. 2 shorties. 3 game winners and a 4 point performance in the gold medal game against Canada. Yeah he fades all the time when the going gets tough. That Canada team had Parent and Bourdon on D with Price in the net. Setoguchi, O'merra, Latendresse not a bad team either.
 
Last edited:

VOB

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
1,692
0
Michigan
Visit site
MN_Gopher said:
Hey VOB are you meaning this end to the season? Thats 1.55 points per gmae for Kessel and 1.54 ppg for Toews. Wow thats a huge difference. I see where Toews had head and shoulders surpassed Kessel in points now.

And how soon we forget that last year in the u18s. Kessles line 9 goals and 7 assists. One goal on the PP. 2 shorties. 3 game winners and a 4 point performance in the gold medal game against Canada. Yeah he fades all the time when the going gets tough. That Canada team had Parent and Bourdon on D with Price in the net. Setoguchi, O'merra, Latendresse not a bad team either.

Never said that Toews was head and shoulder about Kessel, just that he is the better player and prospect.

How many of Kessel's points were tied to Potulny????

Yes Kessel did very well last year against a Canadian team thrown together at the last minute and flown across an ocean. Parent and Bourdon proved to Kessel just how good they were half a year later on a much bigger stage.....you remember don't you....its when Parent stopped Kessel dead in his tracks and while your boy was lying on his rump Parent uttered the classic line "nice move...to bad its all you got.


Sorry but the way I see it, Toews offensive game now rivals that of Kessel and he is the more complete player and that simply equals a better prospect.
 

MN_Gopher

Registered User
May 2, 2002
3,628
21
Mpls
Visit site
VOB said:
Never said that Toews was head and shoulder about Kessel, just that he is the better player and prospect.

How many of Kessel's points were tied to Potulny????

Yes Kessel did very well last year against a Canadian team thrown together at the last minute and flown across an ocean. Parent and Bourdon proved to Kessel just how good they were half a year later on a much bigger stage.....you remember don't you....its when Parent stopped Kessel dead in his tracks and while your boy was lying on his rump Parent uttered the classic line "nice move...to bad its all you got.


Sorry but the way I see it, Toews offensive game now rivals that of Kessel and he is the more complete player and that simply equals a better prospect.

Again you base it on a small sample. Kessel burns Parent one game then Parnet knocks Kessel down in another and Parent is god. And you make excuses for the Candian team. Was the American based in Europe that year? So they had less travel time? And you always tell me how much better the CHL is. Well how did a bunch of CHL guys loose to a team that lost more games then they won playing a NCAA schedule. Hell i have seen Willie Mitchel plant lots of peole when he was with the wild. Does this mean Willie owns, Jagr, Naslund, Forsberg and company? If Kessel beat every single D man all his life he would amass 200 some points a year in the NHL because he could use his ability to not be stopped and go around everyone. It happens. Happens to all scorers.

And i remember, well i was not there. When Ali muttered is that all you got to Foremen. Yes Ali won that bout. But Formen went on to have a great career. All Foremen could do was hit hard. And he was able to win many titles with one move, a slow motion power punch.

Going by your philosophy Gerber must now own team Canda for life. As he did it to them on a gigantic stage.
 
Last edited:

jake1

Registered User
Oct 8, 2002
451
330
Visit site
TransportedUpstater said:
Whether Kessel will be better in the future is open to discussion. I may be wrong, but I thought that the recent few posts were discussing the two kids at the present time, in which Phil is a superior player.
First, while spirited, at least this has been a civil discussion, so thanks to everyone for that.

Two months ago, it would have been true to say the above. Right now, I don't think so. I am admittedly biased, but having watched both players over the last few weeks (and Kessel all year), there's no way I trade Toews for Kessel right now. Toews has closed the gap in terms of his impact on the game. He is very good offensively - averaging 1.5 points per game down the stretch in the NCAAs at age 17 is just unheard of - and he still makes the smart play all over the rink.

Toews is six months younger than Kessel, which is hardly worth even mentioning, but it seems like more when you think that Kessel played amost all of his NCAA freshman year at 18, while Toews will play all of his at age 17. So was Kessel pretty well ahead of Toews in October and through January? Yes. Well, Toews is now around the age Kessel was when the year started, and lo and behold, Toews is twice the player he (Toews) was when the season started.

On Kessel, he has continued to get better away from the puck, and more and more he makes the smarter, safer play with the puck. The "stupidity" everyone saw in the WJC, turning it over trying a move that had little chance of working instead of getting it deep, is less of an issue every game. I know it's a shocking prospect, but he's actually developing as a prospect. Aside from the blazing speed, his best feature is a one-timer pass he makes, especially on the PP. Someone moves it to him and he rockets a pass to an open man (almost always Potulny) before the defense has a chance to close the passing lane and before the goalie can get over. Potulny has a gift for catching hot passes, so they make a nice combo. Anyway, you have to be able to see the ice to make that pass as consistently as he does. One other significant observation on Kessel is that, while he can fire a blistering wrist shot on the fly, he never hits the net. Most of his goals this year have been cleaning up garbage around the net. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just different than I expected.

Toews does not have the speed, but his hands are right there with Kessel's, as is his vision, shot, etc. Lately, Toews has fallen in love with the "perfect play," and has been passing when he's in a prime shooting spot. He did it once in each game last weekend, and it was the classic one pass too many in each case. Of course he also did it for UND's first goal Friday, and when Duncan got the puck the goalie was nowhere to be seen. [Zajac has had the same affliction lately. Something in the Winnipeg water that breeds this unselfishness?] Toews also gets knocked to his butt in every game, just planted by some defenseman, but if there's ever a place where youth is going to show that is it (strength). He wins the puck along the boards a lot, which is surprising given the strength issue.

In terms of their futures, if Kessel's game continues to mature as it has this year, and you have a smart player with his speed and hands, well it's no wonder why everyone is excited. Plus, while he's not "big," he's not small either; he's a normal sized human being, which actually works in hockey.

Toews is going to be bigger, he's already good along the boards and shifty as heck with the puck. For a long time, people said, "why is Toews even in the discussion? None of the rating services have him up with Kessel." Well, now ISS has JT second and PK third, and Redline says the top grouping of players is now three deep, not just two. People then said, potential is one thing, but production matters. Well, now Toews has begun matching Kessel's production. Yes, it was for a "stretch," but we're talking about kids who are in a very steep part of their development curve. It's not like we're talking about a hot streak for a 25-year old. We're talking about kids who are much better players than they were six moths ago.

All that said, I hope Kessel get picked higher and leaves college a year earlier.
 

VOB

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
1,692
0
Michigan
Visit site
MN_Gopher said:
Again you base it on a small sample. Kessel burns Parent one game then Parnet knocks Kessel down in another and Parent is god. And you make excuses for the Candian team. Was the American based in Europe that year? So they had less travel time? And you always tell me how much better the CHL is. Well how did a bunch of CHL guys loose to a team that lost more games then they won playing a NCAA schedule. Hell i have seen Willie Mitchel plant lots of peole when he was with the wild. Does this mean Willie owns, Jagr, Naslund, Forsberg and company? If Kessel beat every single D man all his life he would amass 200 some points a year in the NHL because he could use his ability to not be stopped and go around everyone. It happens. Happens to all scorers.

And i remember, well i was not there. When Ali muttered is that all you got to Foremen. Yes Ali won that bout. But Formen went on to have a great career. All Foremen could do was hit hard. And he was able to win many titles with one move, a slow motion power punch.

Going by your philosophy Gerber must now own team Canda for life. As he did it to them on a gigantic stage.

Ever heard that hockey is a team game and throwing together a group of players, no matter how good they are, is no way to win anything. Canada prepares very little for the U-18's as they cannot pick their team until the last minute. The NTDP has an imense advantage over other clubs because they are a team and play as a team. (not to mention the fact that Canada is often missing their best players - I mean even you Goph would not be stupid enough to suggest that the U.S. would have beaten Canada the way they did with Crosby and Brule in the line up).

Fastforward to the WJC, where you now have two weeks to prepare, and two or three exhibition games, patterns and plays can be established and individuals know their roles. Kessel, who thrives on open space, suddenly finds very little of it and mobile players like Parent can shut him down. Perhaps you missed my original point to Rabid; Kessel's speed will be less of a factor in the NHL when you are facing Dmen of Parent's caliber every shift.


Very good post Jake1!
 

MN_Gopher

Registered User
May 2, 2002
3,628
21
Mpls
Visit site
VOB said:
Ever heard that hockey is a team game and throwing together a group of players, no matter how good they are, is no way to win anything. Canada prepares very little for the U-18's as they cannot pick their team until the last minute. The NTDP has an imense advantage over other clubs because they are a team and play as a team. (not to mention the fact that Canada is often missing their best players - I mean even you Goph would not be stupid enough to suggest that the U.S. would have beaten Canada the way they did with Crosby and Brule in the line up).

Fastforward to the WJC, where you now have two weeks to prepare, and two or three exhibition games, patterns and plays can be established and individuals know their roles. Kessel, who thrives on open space, suddenly finds very little of it and mobile players like Parent can shut him down. Perhaps you missed my original point to Rabid; Kessel's speed will be less of a factor in the NHL when you are facing Dmen of Parent's caliber every shift.!


How can you say speed is less of a factor. Alot of Gaboriks goals are him using speed and un-corking a rocket. This is not the old NHL where you only had to worry about one line. Now with defenders able to pass from anywhere on the ice. It opens the game way up. I have seen more breakaways this year. Speed is more of a fator now than it has been.

Canda basically tied the US in the WJC. Teams do not pull goalies in a 2-2 game. And again you base this on one tournament. Was Canada not even the 4th best in the world becasue they lost in the olympics. Kessel is a timing player. You cannot get that chemistry in a week. No team put togther can. So you either get lucky or you do not. You are right the US had a huge advantage. But where were Parent and Bourdon when Kessel is on sink with his linemates.
 

VOB

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
1,692
0
Michigan
Visit site
MN_Gopher said:
How can you say speed is less of a factor. Alot of Gaboriks goals are him using speed and un-corking a rocket. This is not the old NHL where you only had to worry about one line. Now with defenders able to pass from anywhere on the ice. It opens the game way up. I have seen more breakaways this year. Speed is more of a fator now than it has been.

Canda basically tied the US in the WJC. Teams do not pull goalies in a 2-2 game. And again you base this on one tournament. Was Canada not even the 4th best in the world becasue they lost in the olympics. Kessel is a timing player. You cannot get that chemistry in a week. No team put togther can. So you either get lucky or you do not. You are right the US had a huge advantage. But where were Parent and Bourdon when Kessel is on sink with his linemates.


Excuse me, but where did I say that speed was a non factor???? I said that Kessel's speed that he uses so effectively in the college game will not be as much of a factor in the NHL, as it is now, because of the overall better mobility of all players!

Will Kessel use his speed to his advantage? Sure but if this is the only charachteristic you are basing his "superiority" over Toews, you will be disappointed.

Kessel is not so much a "timing" player as he is an opportunist. If there are seams or space on the ice, he will use it to burn you. Like I have been saying all along though, limit his space and you greatly reduce his capacity to generate offense.

That is why goph that a sizable chunk of his points have come on the PP - more open ice!

Toews is proving to be a totally different animal. He is harder (and in my opinion based on his projected progression) and willl be much harder to contain. Toews may not yet have the physical charachteristics of Joe Thornton (size mainly) but man every time I see him play lately that is who he is reminding me more and more of.

Again, I feel that Toews will be the better pro player.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->