More Kessel vs. Toews debate..

[MN_Gopher]

I'm talking about this year. He was put on that line to prevent goals, you know that. He wasn't expected to put up huge numbers and lead the team this year.

The gophers have never had a guy that was just supposed to stop one teams line. He needed to score too. Playing with Howe and Chucko. That line needed to produce more this year. Even our D are asked to step up. You think tDon said hey Gino stop those guys and thats it? He wanted and needed points from that line. They needed him to be a two way threat not just a D stopper.

 

[crosby_87]

The gophers have never had a guy that was just supposed to stop one teams line. He needed to score too. Playing with Howe and Chucko. That line needed to produce more this year. Even our D are asked to step up. You think tDon said hey Gino stop those guys and thats it? He wanted and needed points from that line. They needed him to be a two way threat not just a D stopper.

Actually yes I do think that. Since they were basically from what I saw matched up against the other teams top line, of course their job isn't to score. Of course he wanted points from that line, but I don't think they were essential to the success of the team if that line scored or not. It shouldn't be anyways. A checking line like that isn't expected to be essential in the offensive zone to the teams success.

 

[MN_Gopher]

If the line had had Sertich and Bostrom i would agree. Howe was the USHL MVP. A guy that after his sickness came on strong his freshman year. He was brought in to score goals. Chucko is a first rounder. A guy brought in to play big in corners and create havoc in front of the net, and to score. You do not put guys like Howe and Chucko on a line and not need them to score.

 

[crosby_87]

Well I just think that if he needed that line to score, he wouldn't have them out against opposing teams top lines. That makes no sense. When you use a lower line against another teams top line the coach doesn't say "we need you guys to go out there and dominate them and score", you say "we need you to go out there and hit everything in sight and do not give up goals"

 

[crosby_87]

I have a question for everyone. What kinds of players will Kessel and Toews become. I still am not sure about Kessel, but Toews could end up being like a Vinny Lecavalier in my opinion. I was just reading on another board and they were talking about how other centers put up better numbers then vinny(such as Datsyuk or Spezza) but that almost everyone in that site would take Vinny in the playoffs in a heartbeat. That's what I think Toews could become. He probably won't be a top of the line point producer like other centers like Spezza are, but he will be there for you when it matters.

 

[MN_Gopher]

I agree with that in the NHL or on teams that are not as deep. Some line had to be our stopper line. It was them becasue Guyer is our best D forward. But it was not its only role. Also it was the only line not to feature a freshman. They needed to play better.

 

[crosby_87]

I agree with that in the NHL or on teams that are not as deep. Some line had to be our stopper line. It was them becasue Guyer is our best D forward. But it was not its only role. Also it was the only line not to feature a freshman. They needed to play better.

OK I'll give you this argument. I respect you as a poster, and you know more about the Gophers then I do. But I'm curious, what kind of player do you think Kessel or Toews will be(I mean an NHL comparison).

 

[MN_Gopher]

I have a question for everyone. What kinds of players will Kessel and Toews become. I still am not sure about Kessel, but Toews could end up being like a Vinny Lecavalier in my opinion. I was just reading on another board and they were talking about how other centers put up better numbers then vinny(such as Datsyuk or Spezza) but that almost everyone in that site would take Vinny in the playoffs in a heartbeat. That's what I think Toews could become. He probably won't be a top of the line point producer like other centers like Spezza are, but he will be there for you when it matters.

Towes will make a team look good over the long haul. Kessel will win games all by himself. Towes will wear the a letter and Kessel will still just be scoring.

Kessel the quiet offensive juggernaut.
Towes an all around good guy that scores.

 

[MN_Gopher]

The big difference that i see. And one that will make the point favor Kessel i nthe end. In a situation like. Up by one 4 minutes left to play end of a shift.

Kessel gets the puck and gos for the nail. He knows he can beat the guy and make something happen to put the game away.

Towes wants to win the game. Takes the puck in deep. Kills time makes the opponet go the full length of the ice after wasting energy wrestling the puck away from him.

Kessel gos for the goal, Towes goes for the win. Not that Kessel is not a team player or Towes does not the ability to score. But that is how i see them responding in a situaiton like that. And how i see them playing. Both want to win but go about it two different ways.

 

[crosby_87]

The big difference that i see. And one that will make the point favor Kessel i nthe end. In a situation like. Up by one 4 minutes left to play end of a shift.

Kessel gets the puck and gos for the nail. He knows he can beat the guy and make something happen to put the game away.

Towes wants to win the game. Takes the puck in deep. Kills time makes the opponet go the full length of the ice after wasting energy wrestling the puck away from him.

Kessel gos for the goal, Towes goes for the win. Not that Kessel is not a team player or Towes does not the ability to score. But that is how i see them responding in a situaiton like that. And how i see them playing. Both want to win but go about it two different ways.

Couldn't agree more. We all know that Toews is the "safer" pick because he makes "safer" plays and he is very steady and reliable, will almost never make a mistake. Kessel is more of a "risky" pick because he takes more risks. In this case, Toews pretty much could not screw up and will benefit his team by wasting time off the scoreboard. Kessel could put the game away, or get stopped trying his infamous "puck through the legs jump around the d", it probably won't work, and the puck will be going the other way

 

[USA!]

If the line had had Sertich and Bostrom i would agree. Howe was the USHL MVP. A guy that after his sickness came on strong his freshman year. He was brought in to score goals. Chucko is a first rounder. A guy brought in to play big in corners and create havoc in front of the net, and to score. You do not put guys like Howe and Chucko on a line and not need them to score.

Chucko is a def forward at best that kid is awful and cannot score

 

[Le Golie]

The big difference that i see. And one that will make the point favor Kessel i nthe end. In a situation like. Up by one 4 minutes left to play end of a shift.

Kessel gets the puck and gos for the nail. He knows he can beat the guy and make something happen to put the game away.

Towes wants to win the game. Takes the puck in deep. Kills time makes the opponet go the full length of the ice after wasting energy wrestling the puck away from him.

Kessel gos for the goal, Towes goes for the win. Not that Kessel is not a team player or Towes does not the ability to score. But that is how i see them responding in a situaiton like that. And how i see them playing. Both want to win but go about it two different ways.

It's TOEWS. Not TOWES.

 

[Gump Hasek]

Have seen both Kessel and Toews play quite a bit over the past few years. I know I'm a newb and newbs aren't allowed strong opinions... but I have one.

Some of you guys are assuming a lot if you think Kessel's college game will translate equally to the NHL. Granted, he has some speed but so do a few hundred other NHL players. Unlike others have claimed here, I can't foresee him beating NHL calibre d-men one on one with his moves on a regular basis. Toews reminds me of a young Ron Francis and strikes me as more of a sure thing than does Kessell. What I mean is that I see Kessel as more of a high risk - high reward pick but see Toews as the more complete player, meaning a sure thing.

I'm not looking for a debate and just expressed my own opinion for what it's worth. Best of luck to both players.

 

[VOB]

Towes wants to win the game. Takes the puck in deep. Kills time makes the opponet go the full length of the ice after wasting energy wrestling the puck away from him.

Kessel gos for the goal, Towes goes for the win. Not that Kessel is not a team player or Towes does not the ability to score. But that is how i see them responding in a situaiton like that. And how i see them playing. Both want to win but go about it two different ways.

You are partially right...Toews can contain a team better than Kessel but Toews can also go for the goal as well. His offensive game now rivals Kessel's and that is why he is the better prospect and will be the better pro player.

 

[MN_Gopher]

You are partially right...Toews can contain a team better than Kessel but Toews can also go for the goal as well. His offensive game now rivals Kessel's and that is why he is the better prospect and will be the better pro player.

His game does not rival Kessels. Kessle had 51 points in 39 games. Toews has 38 points in 41 games. Is 13 less points in 2 more games is a rival?


And anyone who says Kessle and "the move" has not seen a gopher game. He does not do it anymore. Once in awhile yes he still will. But just as much as i see Gaborik, or anyother talented player on a 1:1 situation do it.

 

[MN_Gopher]

You are partially right...Toews can contain a team better than Kessel but Toews can also go for the goal as well. His offensive game now rivals Kessel's and that is why he is the better prospect and will be the better pro player.

I smell a bet in the making. Kind of like our last one. I think i got anyone on the Gophers second national title team and you got Jeff Carter. Becasue Carter was going to be SO Much better than Vanek. Well lets see how the players panned put.

My guys
Paul Martin 5 goals, 28 assists avg 23.45 of ice time
Keith Ballard 6 goals and 26 assists. 20.04 ice time.
Thomas Vanek 24 goals and 20 assists

You have
Jeff Carter 19 goals and 16 assists.

Well at least Carter can out score some defensmen by a convincing 2-3 points.

I think i get round one. So wanna try and break even on Toews vs Kessel?

 

[Marshall]

As far as skills, I'll let that up to the smarter/more biased posters (not everyone, certainly), but one thing Kessel has that Toews does not is speed. I've seen (on the television) both in regular season and playoff games, and Kessel's speed is elite.

I am by no means saying that Toews is bad, or that Kessel's speed makes him a better player.

 

[VOB]

I smell a bet in the making. Kind of like our last one. I think i got anyone on the Gophers second national title team and you got Jeff Carter. Becasue Carter was going to be SO Much better than Vanek. Well lets see how the players panned put.

My guys
Paul Martin 5 goals, 28 assists avg 23.45 of ice time
Keith Ballard 6 goals and 26 assists. 20.04 ice time.
Thomas Vanek 24 goals and 20 assists

You have
Jeff Carter 19 goals and 16 assists.

Well at least Carter can out score some defensmen by a convincing 2-3 points.

I think i get round one. So wanna try and break even on Toews vs Kessel?

The bet was Carter straight for Vanek, and their careers are hardly over - I believe I said that Carter will be the superior player within five years and yes I will demand my money from you Goph. As of right now, Carter has 19 goals and 35 pts and is a + 9 vs Vanek's 24 goals and 44pts and is - 9. Carter is also on the third line and receives little PP time while almost half of Vanek's goals are from the PP.

I hope Philly and Buffalo meet up in the playoffs and you just might get a glimps of who you would want to build your team around.

As for Kessel vs Toews - I would pick Toews to build my team around and the bet's on!

 

[jake1]

His game does not rival Kessels. Kessle had 51 points in 39 games. Toews has 38 points in 41 games. Is 13 less points in 2 more games is a rival?

Toews finally got a break in mid-February, his first break since the WJC. Here's what he's done since:

02/17/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
02/18/06 2-1-3 Minnesota-Duluth
02/24/06 2-0-2 @ Denver
02/25/06 1-0-1 @ Denver
03/03/06 1-2-3 Michigan Tech
03/04/06 0-1-1 Michigan Tech
03/10/06 0-0-0 Minnesota State
03/11/06 1-0-1 Minnesota State
03/12/06 0-0-0 Minnesota State
03/17/06 0-1-1 Wisconsin
03/18/06 1-2-3 St. Cloud State
03/24/06 1-1-2 Michigan
03/25/06 1-2-3 Holy Cross

That's 10-10-20 in 13 games.

Here's PK in the same time period:

02/17/06 0-1-1 Denver
02/18/06 0-3-3 Denver
02/24/06 0-3-3 @ Alaska-Anchorage
02/25/06 1-0-1 @ Alaska-Anchorage
03/03/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
03/04/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
03/10/06 1-1-2 Alaska-Anchorage
03/11/06 2-1-3 Alaska-Anchorage
03/17/06 0-3-3 St. Cloud State
03/18/06 0-0-0 Wisconsin
03/24/06 1-0-1 Holy Cross

That's 5-12-17 in 11 games, against a very similar schedule.

The numbers now support a claim that Toews rivals Kessel offensively. And it's not just numbers. Anyone watching can see that Toews is a great offensive player too. I agree that Kessel will always have the speed advantage though.

 

[MN_Gopher]

The bet was Carter straight for Vanek, and their careers are hardly over - I believe I said that Carter will be the superior player within five years and yes I will demand my money from you Goph. As of right now, Carter has 19 goals and 35 pts and is a + 9 vs Vanek's 24 goals and 44pts and is - 9. Carter is also on the third line and receives little PP time while almost half of Vanek's goals are from the PP.

I hope Philly and Buffalo meet up in the playoffs and you just might get a glimps of who you would want to build your team around.

As for Kessel vs Toews - I would pick Toews to build my team around and the bet's on!

You said this on http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=89600&page=8&pp=25

No spin (I leave that to you) just the truth eye, nothing but the truth. I am curious to know where you found 7 Canadian born players in the USHL that received scholarships this year. I have only counted four (Oreskovich, Lawrence, Yarowski, and Fornatano, SOURCE: http://www.ushl.com/college/index.cfm). I would also like the names of the 6 Canadian players in the NAHL and the 2 from the Minnesota prep leagues (if one of them is Ryan Duncan then I must say you are sly eye, very sly since you know that he is a 2005 recruit and not a 2004!) Since you mentioned Canadian born players in the US domestic leagues (both real and maybe some imagined) allow me to list some American born talent in the BCHL.

Powell, Schiavone, Ramsey,Hollweg, Johnson, Wilkens, Naglich and Rogers are all Americans and cannot be included in your list of Canadian born players. So your 51 from the BCHL becomes 43. Off the top of my head from Ontario there are Nogatch, Maier and Devine who are also American and I will bet one of my good hats that there are at least a few more Americans in that league who received shcolarships as well! So until I see some specific Canadian names, I may be willing to say that 140 or so Freshman Canadians will play in the NCAA this year.

I am glad to see you finally admitted that you were wrong about the Canadian content in the NHL. 52% of all players is a far cry from your original 35%

You often claim that I am anti-NCAA (which of course you cannot substantiate) but what is your fasination with putting the Greyhounds down? They have produced more star players than the Gophs could ever hope to!
As for Greyhound players in the CIS from the 2000 to 2003 teams, I count nine (that represent a little less than a third of those that graduated) players and not six. Richards (who was the rookie of the year in the OAU by the way eye), Held, Theobold, Jones, Martin, Fox, Day, Hedburg, and Dymtruk were all playing in the CIS this year. Stefanski was just recruited to play for Lakehead this spring and both Dobben and Doyle were heavily recruited by just about every major CIS school but both will likely play pro (my bet is on Dobben to be in the AHL while Doyle will most likely start in the ECHL). Your problem eye is that you rely to much on the Internet Hockeydatabase, which doesn't keep good records of CIS players.

As for your Goph AHL grads, lets go over this again
Aaron Miskovich - Quad City Mallards - UHL
Dylan Mills - Quad City Mallards - UHL
Pat O'Leary - Kalamazoo Wings - UHL
Nick Angell - Rockford Ice Hogs - UHL
Erik Wendell- Rockford Ice Hogs - UHL
Adam Hauser - Jackson Bandits -UHL

I refuse to count someone like Angel, who played a mere TWO GAMES in the AHL this year as an AHL regular! Same goes for Hauser who only played in ONE AHL game his rookie season!
You cannot say for certain that Riddle and Koalska will be in the AHL this coming season (in short don't count your chickens before they hatch eye)!

Are you so arrogant to believe that Lucia's teams will go down as the most successful in North America?

Lets make a bet eye (you can choose the terms). I say that Carter will be more successful in the NHL within the next 5 years than Vanek or any other Goph who played this year. Are you on?!

So would you like retract your words. Or is this yet another spin put on by the mighty VOB. And in this one i am right. And i have the proof. Should have never picked a fight with a guy that knows how to research. But i guess you still have five years. But man my odds are looking good right now.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Toews finally got a break in mid-February, his first break since the WJC. Here's what he's done since:

02/17/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
02/18/06 2-1-3 Minnesota-Duluth
02/24/06 2-0-2 @ Denver
02/25/06 1-0-1 @ Denver
03/03/06 1-2-3 Michigan Tech
03/04/06 0-1-1 Michigan Tech
03/10/06 0-0-0 Minnesota State
03/11/06 1-0-1 Minnesota State
03/12/06 0-0-0 Minnesota State
03/17/06 0-1-1 Wisconsin
03/18/06 1-2-3 St. Cloud State
03/24/06 1-1-2 Michigan
03/25/06 1-2-3 Holy Cross

That's 10-10-20 in 13 games.

Here's PK in the same time period:

02/17/06 0-1-1 Denver
02/18/06 0-3-3 Denver
02/24/06 0-3-3 @ Alaska-Anchorage
02/25/06 1-0-1 @ Alaska-Anchorage
03/03/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
03/04/06 0-0-0 Minnesota-Duluth
03/10/06 1-1-2 Alaska-Anchorage
03/11/06 2-1-3 Alaska-Anchorage
03/17/06 0-3-3 St. Cloud State
03/18/06 0-0-0 Wisconsin
03/24/06 1-0-1 Holy Cross

That's 5-12-17 in 11 games, against a very similar schedule.

The numbers now support a claim that Toews rivals Kessel offensively. And it's not just numbers. Anyone watching can see that Toews is a great offensive player too. I agree that Kessel will always have the speed advantage though.

If seasons were stretches i would agree. But a season is a season. And Kessel out scored Toews by a fair margin.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

You are partially right...Toews can contain a team better than Kessel but Toews can also go for the goal as well. His offensive game now rivals Kessel's and that is why he is the better prospect and will be the better pro player.

I wouldn't say that. Toews is a great offensive player in his own right but his overall skill level still lags behind Kessel and likely always will. Also, while Toews is a good skater, he isn't in Kessel's league in that regard either.

 

[USA!]

I wouldn't say that. Toews is a great offensive player in his own right but his overall skill level still lags behind Kessel and likely always will. Also, while Toews is a good skater, he isn't in Kessel's league in that regard either.

Phil play no def at all, did you watch him play this weekend? Phil will never be close to John in the overall game and that is a fact! Oh poor gophers will get to sit home and watch the Sioux and John make a run for the title for the second year in a row

 

[MN_Gopher]

Phil play no def at all, did you watch him play this weekend? Phil will never be close to John in the overall game and that is a fact! Oh poor gophers will get to sit home and watch the Sioux and John make a run for the title for the second year in a row

Drew Stafford must stink then. Because did you see Kessel complety own him in the open ice. He ran him down. Then jumped around him to knock the puck away. Stafford on a break, oh no Kessel breaks it up. I guess you missed that one. And there are more simular plays. But i guess you missed them. When Kessel is behind the goal line oinning his guy to the boards. I guess you missed thjat. Kessel having his head on a swivel. But i guess you missed that. Does he need to improve. Yes. But it isn't that bad.

 

[USA!]

Drew Stafford must stink then. Because did you see Kessel complety own him in the open ice. He ran him down. Then jumped around him to knock the puck away. Stafford on a break, oh no Kessel breaks it up. I guess you missed that one. And there are more simular plays. But i guess you missed them. When Kessel is behind the goal line oinning his guy to the boards. I guess you missed thjat. Kessel having his head on a swivel. But i guess you missed that. Does he need to improve. Yes. But it isn't that bad.

Hope Phil has his golf swing up to par! Where are they now? Homer