More Kessel vs. Toews debate..

[Wally112pac]

Take Toews off of Canada's WJC team, and they would of done just as well. Put Kessel on the team instead of Toews and they would of done even better. Put TJ Oshie on team canada instead of Kessel and they would of done even better in my opinion.

Canada left off Wolski and Mcgrath cause they're not realy Sutter type players.

Do you think Sutter would have added Kessel if he left off Wolski?

Toews is a Sutter guy. He fit in great.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Jaydub said "where was toews coming up big at WJC?" to mock Toews' point total. And don't try to impress people by calling your opinion a 'fact'. Everyone around here knows that when Phil Kessel or any other American prospect is the subject, your opinion is rarely close to factual.

You're dodging the key point here-which is Toews was NOT a key cog in Canada's road to the gold medal. He might have did all the "little things" as you and others suggest, but there were several other players (such as Justin Pogge or Ryan Parent) that deserve the accolades. As for my "opinion," I make it my business to be educated about American hockey players and prospects. Whether you agree with me isn't my concern.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Canada left off Wolski and Mcgrath cause they're not realy Sutter type players.

Do you think Sutter would have added Kessel if he left off Wolski?

Toews is a Sutter guy. He fit in great.

Are you suggesting that if Kessel is Canadian he wouldn't have made Team Canada?

It seemed to me that Sutter chose more than one player who didn't exactly mesh with his style (such as Cogliano and Pokoluk).

 

[Wally112pac]

Are you suggesting that if Kessel is Canadian he wouldn't have made Team Canada?

It seemed to me that Sutter chose more than one player who didn't exactly mesh with his style (such as Cogliano and Pokoluk).

It's not out of the question.

shremp has been left off of teams.

Dan Cleary was left off of a lot of em.

 

[jaydub*]

It's not out of the question.

shremp has been left off of teams.

Dan Cleary was left off of a lot of em.

Wow this thread has now just gotten rediculous. If Kessel was canadian he wouldn't of made team canada WJC team

 

[Rabid Ranger]

It's not out of the question.

shremp has been left off of teams.

Dan Cleary was left off of a lot of em.

Yes, it is out of the question.

 

[Wally112pac]

Yes, it is out of the question.

I'm just sayin the coach picks the team.

The past 2 years Sutter has left off offensive players he felt wouldn't work.

 

[kingpin_19]

where was toews coming up big at WJC?

Where were the Americans on the podium??

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I'm just sayin the coach picks the team.

The past 2 years Sutter has left off offensive players he felt wouldn't work.

I don't deny that. My question is who says Kessel fits that description?

 

[Wally112pac]

I don't deny that. My question is who says Kessel fits that description?

We can just speculate.

But do you think Kessel would have been tryin the 1 on 3 rush over and over and over on Sutter's team?

Sutter made it very clear that it's his way or no way. I don't think 1 on 3 would have flew.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

We can just speculate.

But do you think Kessel would have been tryin the 1 on 3 rush over and over and over on Sutter's team?

Sutter made it very clear that it's his way or no way. I don't think 1 on 3 would have flew.

No, Sutter would have probably put the kibosh on the that, just as he put the kibosh on Latendresse's indifferant play. The point is Latendresse was named to the team and there's a virtual certainty Kessel would have been as well.

 

[Refuse]

I've never even seen Kessel play. Anyone got a clip or two i could watch?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Couldn't have said it any better. Toews isn't going to be a Maurice Richard trophy winner or Art Ross trophy winner. What he will be though is a winner. He has future captain written all over him, and every time i see him play, I see something like a future Brad Richards....great locker room leader, all out every shift, put your fair share of points up, and win your team a stanley cup.

I've watched Toews as much as I could this season and he doesn't have NEAR the offensive upside that Richards does.

I love Toews as a prospect, but he's not going to be the player Richards is.

With that said, he's a safe pick and will be a great player in the NHL.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

No, Sutter would have probably but the kibosh on the that, just as he put the kibosh on Latendresse's indifferant play. The point is Latendresse was named to the team and there's a virtual certainty Kessel would have been as well.

Exactly.

Someone stating that Kessel would not be on the Canadian team is absolutely laughable to me.

 

[Wally112pac]

The point is Latendresse was named to the team and there's a virtual certainty Kessel would have been as well.

Like i said before Sutter left off offensive players cause he thought they didn't fit in.

Let's say Kessel is Canadian. If Sutter thought that he would ruin chemistry with his antics there's no way he makes the team.

That team was the ultimate team. There were no individuals. Another reason why i don't think he would have made it.

Now for any Kessel fanatics who think i'm sayin Kessel sucks and he can't play i'm not. I'm lookin at it from who Canada took and how they built their team.

They won the gold so they obviously made the right decisions.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Like i said before Sutter left off offensive players cause he thought they didn't fit in.

Let's say Kessel is Canadian. If Sutter thought that he would ruin chemistry with his antics there's no way he makes the team.

That team was the ultimate team. There were no individuals. Another reason why i don't think he would have made it.

Now for any Kessel fanatics who think i'm sayin Kessel sucks and he can't play i'm not. I'm lookin at it from who Canada took and how they built their team.

They won the gold so they obviously made the right decisions.

But you're comparing Kessel to someone like Schremp. He FAR outclasses everything that Robbie brings to the table.

Kessel would be on the team. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Rabid Ranger is right when he says that Toews was not a cog on Team Canada at the WJC. But let's remember he was 17, and Sidney Crosby is the only 17-year-old forward to star for Canada in likely the last decade. (Nash, Lecavalier and Thornton played for Canada at 17, and often looked out of place, especially Nash).

I believe it was RR who also accurately pointed out that Kessel dominated Canada (2 goals and 2 assists, I believe) in the final of last year's WU18.

Left out of the argument thus far, though, is that Toews has been the best player at two tournaments against his own age group: the 2004-05 WU17 and the 2005 Junior World Cup, an under-18 tournament. Toews' team went on to win gold at both tournaments. So he won while dominating his own age group.

If you think Toews is another Brad Richards, you're going to be disappointed. Mike Richards, maybe; like M. Richards, Toews oozes character, leadership, grit, hustle and smarts. Kessel has a much stronger offensive upside, but a lot of what we're saying now is what we said about David Legwand in 1998. (The only difference is that Legwand kind of came out of nowhere in his draft year, while Kessel has been under intense scrutiny all year.

Who would I pick if I had the No. 1 pick? Right now, I'd take E. Johnson, but if given the choice between Kessel and Toews, I'd take Kessel. If I had Toews ranked No. 1, I'd trade down to No. 3. If I'm St. Louis, I take Kessel in a heart beat. St. Louis needs that marque, marketable, potentially dynamic scorer. If I'm Pittsburgh, and Erik Johnson is already gone, and I have lots of talented offensive forwards, I strongly look at Toews.

I think expectations were a little too high for Kessel this year. Thanks to his play as a 17-year-old, and the comparisons to Crosby, I think people were expecting him to put up similar numbers to Paul Kariya in Kariya's freshman year. (100 points in 39 games, lead his team to a national championship). As it stands now, I don't think he'll match the numbers of Dany Heatley or Zach Parise in their first year. I think we need to re-evaluate our expectations for Kessel, and realize that what we have is a future first-line scoring forward, but not the franchise forward that many expected.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Rabid Ranger is right when he says that Toews was not a cog on Team Canada at the WJC. But let's remember he was 17, and Sidney Crosby is the only 17-year-old forward to star for Canada in likely the last decade. (Nash, Lecavalier and Thornton played for Canada at 17, and often looked out of place, especially Nash).

I believe it was RR who also accurately pointed out that Kessel dominated Canada (2 goals and 2 assists, I believe) in the final of last year's WU18.

Left out of the argument thus far, though, is that Toews has been the best player at two tournaments against his own age group: the 2004-05 WU17 and the 2005 Junior World Cup, an under-18 tournament. Toews' team went on to win gold at both tournaments. So he won while dominating his own age group.

If you think Toews is another Brad Richards, you're going to be disappointed. Mike Richards, maybe; like M. Richards, Toews oozes character, leadership, grit, hustle and smarts. Kessel has a much stronger offensive upside, but a lot of what we're saying now is what we said about David Legwand in 1998. (The only difference is that Legwand kind of came out of nowhere in his draft year, while Kessel has been under intense scrutiny all year.

Who would I pick if I had the No. 1 pick? Right now, I'd take E. Johnson, but if given the choice between Kessel and Toews, I'd take Kessel. If I had Toews ranked No. 1, I'd trade down to No. 3. If I'm St. Louis, I take Kessel in a heart beat. St. Louis needs that marque, marketable, potentially dynamic scorer. If I'm Pittsburgh, and Erik Johnson is already gone, and I have lots of talented offensive forwards, I strongly look at Toews.

I think expectations were a little too high for Kessel this year. Thanks to his play as a 17-year-old, and the comparisons to Crosby, I think people were expecting him to put up similar numbers to Paul Kariya in Kariya's freshman year. (100 points in 39 games, lead his team to a national championship). As it stands now, I don't think he'll match the numbers of Dany Heatley or Zach Parise in their first year. I think we need to re-evaluate our expectations for Kessel, and realize that what we have is a future first-line scoring forward, but not the franchise forward that many expected.

Agreed 100%.



As a side note, you are one of my favorite posters on these boards, and one of the most objective people on HF.

God Bless Canada PWNS HF!

 

[God Bless Canada]

Agreed 100%.



As a side note, you are one of my favorite posters on these boards, and one of the most objective people on HF.

God Bless Canada PWNS HF!

Thanks for the good words, although if you want to acquaint yourself with HF Boards' finest, hang around the History of Hockey Forum.

I always try my best to be impartial. I believe that even if you don't like a player, you should be able to give credit where it is due. If you can't, you've got a problem. We all have our biases, but we can't allow those biases to cloud or impair of evaluation judgement. (It helps when you write for a living and you have a memory like a steel trap).

 

[Captain Conservative]

.

Interesting arguments for Kessel in this thread. As an aside, could you tell me what your avatar is all about?

 

[AgentNaslund*]

I've never even seen Kessel play. Anyone got a clip or two i could watch?

i dont have a clip, but if you do see a video of him, you wont have to see videos of Johnson or Toews, Kessel is going number 1.

BTW, Kessel over Toews. I ono man, im not convinced about this Toews kid. He was mediocre at best at the worlds. Sure he was the youngest player, but he was nowhere near Kessels Calibre.

Phil Kessel is going number 1.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I've never even seen Kessel play. Anyone got a clip or two i could watch?

Apparently you're not alone.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Interesting arguments for Kessel in this thread. As an aside, could you tell me what your avatar is all about?

It's a just a lame play on the messiah angle. Instead of Jesus of Nazareth it's Phillip of Nazareth.

 

[Gopher_Nut]

Rabid Ranger is right when he says that Toews was not a cog on Team Canada at the WJC. But let's remember he was 17, and Sidney Crosby is the only 17-year-old forward to star for Canada in likely the last decade. (Nash, Lecavalier and Thornton played for Canada at 17, and often looked out of place, especially Nash).

I believe it was RR who also accurately pointed out that Kessel dominated Canada (2 goals and 2 assists, I believe) in the final of last year's WU18.

Left out of the argument thus far, though, is that Toews has been the best player at two tournaments against his own age group: the 2004-05 WU17 and the 2005 Junior World Cup, an under-18 tournament. Toews' team went on to win gold at both tournaments. So he won while dominating his own age group.

If you think Toews is another Brad Richards, you're going to be disappointed. Mike Richards, maybe; like M. Richards, Toews oozes character, leadership, grit, hustle and smarts. Kessel has a much stronger offensive upside, but a lot of what we're saying now is what we said about David Legwand in 1998. (The only difference is that Legwand kind of came out of nowhere in his draft year, while Kessel has been under intense scrutiny all year.

Who would I pick if I had the No. 1 pick? Right now, I'd take E. Johnson, but if given the choice between Kessel and Toews, I'd take Kessel. If I had Toews ranked No. 1, I'd trade down to No. 3. If I'm St. Louis, I take Kessel in a heart beat. St. Louis needs that marque, marketable, potentially dynamic scorer. If I'm Pittsburgh, and Erik Johnson is already gone, and I have lots of talented offensive forwards, I strongly look at Toews.

I think expectations were a little too high for Kessel this year. Thanks to his play as a 17-year-old, and the comparisons to Crosby, I think people were expecting him to put up similar numbers to Paul Kariya in Kariya's freshman year. (100 points in 39 games, lead his team to a national championship). As it stands now, I don't think he'll match the numbers of Dany Heatley or Zach Parise in their first year. I think we need to re-evaluate our expectations for Kessel, and realize that what we have is a future first-line scoring forward, but not the franchise forward that many expected.

Excellent analysis!! Hawk50 could learn a thing or two from you!!

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

It's not out of the question.

shremp has been left off of teams.

Dan Cleary was left off of a lot of em.

And for good reason as it turned out.