More Kessel vs. Toews debate..

[hawksfan50]

I wonder what the souts in the stands thought of their play in the WCHA Championship Tournament last week-end?

Yes Kessel got 3 assists (2 on PP and 1 with the extra attacker at game end) assisting finisher extraordinaire Ryan Potulny score 3 of his 4 goals in the Friday night semi-final 8-7 Minnesota loss to Minnesota--THEN he and his team do the el-foldo in a 4-0 loss to wisconsin in the 3rd place match game (vaunted Minnesota finishes 4th in the WCHA as a result)...have we not seen PHIL THE THRILL "wilt" and "quit" in big games before when things haven't gone right for him and his team?
It hasn't happened that often in his careeer--but enough times to question whether he has the "character" to rise abve adversity--once things get a little tough or the checking on him tighter--he sometimes just flat out quits...also most of his points are off the PP and extra man situations--how valuable is he even-strength--scouts must be asking these tough questions about him...


Meanwhile Toews only had 1 assist in North Dakota's Friday night semi-final 4-3 win
over Wisconsin;but then he comes up real big in the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME with 1g+2a in the 5-3 North Dakota win over St. Cloud State for all the marbles...don't think scouts won't be marking this down! They will have noticed and character marks (if they weren't already) will be going in facvour of Toews..

Click to read more...

 

[Wally112pac]

but then he comes up real big in the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME with 1g+2a in the 5-3 North Dakota win over St. Cloud State for all the marbles...don't think scouts won't be marking this down! They will have noticed and character marks (if they weren't already) will be going in facvour of Toews..

http://www.prideforums.org/videos/

 

[crosby_87]

That 2nd assist is an absolute beauty, I didn't figure he'd just do a little pass back from that angle.

 

[usiel]

I wonder what the souts in the stands thought of their play in the WCHA Championship Tournament last week-end?

Yes Kessel got 3 assists (2 on PP and 1 with the extra attacker at game end) assisting finisher extraordinaire Ryan Potulny score 3 of his 4 goals in the Friday night semi-final 8-7 Minnesota loss to Minnesota--THEN he and his team do the el-foldo in a 4-0 loss to wisconsin in the 3rd place match game (vaunted Minnesota finishes 4th in the WCHA as a result)...have we not seen PHIL THE THRILL "wilt" and "quit" in big games before when things haven't gone right for him and his team?
It hasn't happened that often in his careeer--but enough times to question whether he has the "character" to rise abve adversity--once things get a little tough or the checking on him tighter--he sometimes just flat out quits...also most of his points are off the PP and extra man situations--how valuable is he even-strength--scouts must be asking these tough questions about him...


Meanwhile Toews only had 1 assist in North Dakota's Friday night semi-final 4-3 win
over Wisconsin;but then he comes up real big in the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME with 1g+2a in the 5-3 North Dakota win over St. Cloud State for all the marbles...don't think scouts won't be marking this down! They will have noticed and character marks (if they weren't already) will be going in facvour of Toews..

I think you've made it pretty clear on how you feel about Kessel around here, heh.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

One question: Did you actually watch any of the games in question or are you going off second hand info?

By the way, I love how you refuse to give Kessel any credit when Minnesota has played well (you know, most of the season becoming the WCHA rookie of the year in the process), but nail him to the wall when Minnesota plays a bad game (did you notice how poorly Briggs and Frazee were over the weekend?!?). What a joke.........

 

[hab]

I keep seeing kessel scored 3 points but... or kessel led the team in scoring but...
maybe the guy is an exceptional talent, and after some team takes kessel 2nd or 3rd and he puts up 100 points on a yearly basis, people will stop dissecting his game and realize how stupid it was not to pick a guy like this 1st overall!!!

 

[hawksfan50]

Just answer--is Kessel going to "quit" when things don't go his way? Talent alone is not the whole story--that is why it would be very very interesting to see the psychological profile tests teams do on prospects ..I wonder what if any red flags come up with Kessel?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Just answer--is Kessel going to "quit" when things don't go his way? Talent alone is not the whole story--that is why it would be very very interesting to see the psychological profile tests teams do on prospects ..I wonder what if any red flags come up with Kessel?

This is pure nonsense. Talk about reaching!

 

[firstroundbust]

 

[WADEugottaBELAKthat]

This is pure nonsense. Talk about reaching!

Pure nonsense? Reaching? Explain.

If one of the major scouting outlets (ISS) has Toews ranked ahead of Kessel, It must not be PURE nonsense(?). Why are there so many Kessel gummers out there? Are they still clinging onto Mike Eaves' Crosby Pipe Dreams? I love how this Hawksfan50 guy gets lambasted for merely mentioning a potentially discernable viewpoint. Its people like Rabid Ranger who don't even listen to other's points-of-view that cheapen this board. 8000+ postings about nothing. I'm not saying that Toews has impressed scouts more than Kessel. I'm just not obtuse enough to refute the notion unwaveringly without a counter-argument.

 

[jaydub*]

I wonder what the souts in the stands thought of their play in the WCHA Championship Tournament last week-end?

Yes Kessel got 3 assists (2 on PP and 1 with the extra attacker at game end) assisting finisher extraordinaire Ryan Potulny score 3 of his 4 goals in the Friday night semi-final 8-7 Minnesota loss to Minnesota--THEN he and his team do the el-foldo in a 4-0 loss to wisconsin in the 3rd place match game (vaunted Minnesota finishes 4th in the WCHA as a result)...have we not seen PHIL THE THRILL "wilt" and "quit" in big games before when things haven't gone right for him and his team?
It hasn't happened that often in his careeer--but enough times to question whether he has the "character" to rise abve adversity--once things get a little tough or the checking on him tighter--he sometimes just flat out quits...also most of his points are off the PP and extra man situations--how valuable is he even-strength--scouts must be asking these tough questions about him...


Meanwhile Toews only had 1 assist in North Dakota's Friday night semi-final 4-3 win
over Wisconsin;but then he comes up real big in the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME with 1g+2a in the 5-3 North Dakota win over St. Cloud State for all the marbles...don't think scouts won't be marking this down! They will have noticed and character marks (if they weren't already) will be going in facvour of Toews..

where was toews coming up big at WJC?

 

[jaydub*]

Pure nonsense? Reaching? Explain.

If one of the major scouting outlets (ISS) has Toews ranked ahead of Kessel, It must not be PURE nonsense(?). Why are there so many Kessel gummers out there? Are they still clinging onto Mike Eaves' Crosby Pipe Dreams? I love how this Hawksfan50 guy gets lambasted for merely mentioning a potentially discernable viewpoint. Its people like Rabid Ranger who don't even listen to other's points-of-view that cheapen this board. 8000+ postings about nothing. I'm not saying that Toews has impressed scouts more than Kessel. I'm just not obtuse enough to refute the notion unwaveringly without a counter-argument.

Probably because of the inconsistancy of this guy, and others arguments. Kessel gets blasted no matter what. If he had scored 4 goals in the final and his team would of won, he would of been called selfish. If his team loses and he does nothing, people say he doesn't show up in big games. If he gets a couple of assists, people say he has no shot and relies on his teammates. God forbid those assists come on the PP, then we get to hear how he can't play even strength.

According to hawkfan50, toews can do no wrong. Kessel can do no right. I am sure the guy didn't see either of the games, and is just looking at some box scores then putting up completely biased and worthless posts stretching the stats to fit his point. No matter what Kessel does, people are going to bash him. Much like people will bash Crosby no matter what, or Kovalchuk, or Iginla etc. ...


EDIT: Oh, and these debates are entirely pointless. Toews is not even the most impressive freshie on his own team. TJ Oshie has been better all year long, and is also a freshman.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Understatement of the century.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

There is no debate IMO. Kessel>Toews.

 

[usiel]

There is no debate IMO. Kessel>Toews.

Amen...I'm not even a huge Kessel fan but IMO he is over Toews right now.

 

[#66]

Stats alone don't tell how good Toews was in that championship game. That being said, there's no reason to knock Kessel. IMO he had a good year. He didn't disappoint but he didn't overwelm either. I like Toews more as a player but Kessel still has the most upside in this draft. I can see people questioning if he'll hit that upside or if his game will translate to the NHL but to say he's had a bad year is just wrong.

 

[Gopher_Nut]

Pure nonsense? Reaching? Explain.

If one of the major scouting outlets (ISS) has Toews ranked ahead of Kessel, It must not be PURE nonsense(?). Why are there so many Kessel gummers out there? Are they still clinging onto Mike Eaves' Crosby Pipe Dreams? I love how this Hawksfan50 guy gets lambasted for merely mentioning a potentially discernable viewpoint. Its people like Rabid Ranger who don't even listen to other's points-of-view that cheapen this board. 8000+ postings about nothing. I'm not saying that Toews has impressed scouts more than Kessel. I'm just not obtuse enough to refute the notion unwaveringly without a counter-argument.

Couldn't disagree more!! The point of these boards are for debate. Hawk50 brings up time and time again his love of Towes and hatred of Kessel. Rabid and others agree/disagree/etc..This is what MAKES these bds interesting.

IMO...Rabids rebuttels are right on..Hawk50 brings up little this/that stats, brings up this never ending argument whenever Towes shows up. I hear nothing when Kessel has a better weekend. Kessel lead all freshman in scoring but did it because of this and that...Whatever dude, sometime try actually watching a full game or two and TRY to be objective!! Kessel was all over the ice in the SCSU game, bet you didn't even see it!!

IMO...I love both Towes and Kessel, both bring different things to the table. BTW, as noted, TJ Oshie was the best Freshman in the tourney.

 

[Gopher_Nut]

Stats alone don't tell how good Toews was in that championship game. That being said, there's no reason to knock Kessel. IMO he had a good year. He didn't disappoint but he didn't overwelm either. I like Toews more as a player but Kessel still has the most upside in this draft. I can see people questioning if he'll hit that upside or if his game will translate to the NHL but to say he's had a bad year is just wrong.

I completely agree! They'll both do well at the next level.

 

[GaryU]

Just don't bring up Backstrom. 50 has a REAL Man love going.

 

[#66]

I completely agree! They'll both do well at the next level.

I'm not a Kessel fan though. IMO there is some bust to his boom but I do think that some people find some ways to dump on him.

 

[Le Golie]

where was toews coming up big at WJC?

That's an interesting comment in a lot of ways.

Everyone has always said the difference between these two is that Kessel will be all over the highlight reel and Toews will be all over the championship trophy.

You are trying to mock Toews and he is wearing the gold medal, while Kessel's great point totals got his team an embarrassing finish.

 

[jake1]

I will be curious to see what the professionals think of the two after the playoffs. I attended the games, and I still hold to my previous opinion: Kessel is electric and more noticeable, but people who sell Toews' skills short, as though he's some early-developed grinder, are in for an eye-opening surprise. Several times, Toews beat a defenseman 1-on-1, either going around or stepping through him, to produce a great chance. I can't remember the last time Kessel flat-out beat a guy 1-on-1 in such a situation. Maybe that's because he's learned to not try it and take it wide, then use his passing skills to find the trailer (a MN specialty). Toews has really gotten a ton better in the last few months - just more effective than he had been. Kessel has gotten better too by playing a more mature game, taking what they give him more. Plus he's developed a very productive personal radar that tells him exactly when Potulny will arrive at his spot ten feet off the right side of the net.

 

[jake1]

Sorry for the double. UND finally got a week off in February, Toews' first break since the WJC. His coach said he was one of the biggest beneficiaries of the rest. Since then, in 11 games, he has 8-7-15. In the same time period Kessel has 4-12-16 in 10 games. That's against similar schedules, maybe a little harder for UND. [UND had Duluth 2, Denver 2, MTU 2, Mankato 3, Wisconsin and SCSU] [MN had Duluth 2, Denver 2, Alaska 4, Wisconsin and SCSU].

So if we're giving credit to Kessel for his production, then does it make sense to start giving credit to Toews for his?

 

[crosby_87]

That's an interesting comment in a lot of ways.

Everyone has always said the difference between these two is that Kessel will be all over the highlight reel and Toews will be all over the championship trophy.

You are trying to mock Toews and he is wearing the gold medal, while Kessel's great point totals got his team an embarrassing finish.

Couldn't have said it any better. Toews isn't going to be a Maurice Richard trophy winner or Art Ross trophy winner. What he will be though is a winner. He has future captain written all over him, and every time i see him play, I see something like a future Brad Richards....great locker room leader, all out every shift, put your fair share of points up, and win your team a stanley cup.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Just answer--is Kessel going to "quit" when things don't go his way? Talent alone is not the whole story--that is why it would be very very interesting to see the psychological profile tests teams do on prospects ..I wonder what if any red flags come up with Kessel?

Did we quit when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor????