More important to Oiler dynasty: Gretzky or Messier?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JCD

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
14,523
2
Visit site
RallyKiller said:
You think they would've beaten the islanders without Mark Messier?

the Oilers would not have won that many cups without Messier..no way.

Their odds of winning 4 Cups without Messier are a heck of a lot better than winning 4 Cups without Gretzky.

At no point during their Oiler career was Messier a better player than Gretzky, nor was he more vital to his team's success.
 

David Puddy

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
5,824
2
New Jersey, USA
Visit site
Gretzky won the Hart Trophy as the league's most valuable player in eight of his nine NHL seasons as an Oiler. He also was selected by the NHLPA members as the Lester B. Pearson Trophy five times during his Oilers days.

That makes a really good case for him.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Damannnnaa said:
True but with no D, your team will suck. Even in the new NHL. Look at Pittsburgh, they were a monster offense on paper-sucked why? They had no D.

As for Bossy or Gretzky, in my oppinion the best player of all time is easily Orr.

With no O your team sucks too. Calgary found out that you can't win 0-0.

Orr was great but, he is my #3. Had he played 20 years, perhaps he could have moved up but Gretzky and Howe are runaway 1 and 2.
 

chooch*

Guest
Messier set a standard of play thats become the prototypical style in the NHL: think Forsberg, Smyth, BrindAmour, LeClair, Lindros, Primeau, Cole, Staal, etc etc. They are all basically Messier. He was the first.

Messier was not only the Oilers leader but also their spirit and soul. Had he gotten the ice time that 99 and his agent demanded did or the on ice freedom from the refs and opposition like 99 he might have scored 150 and had 200 penalty minutes.

But then he wouldnt have become a legend. He was all man.

Ask any 80's player - its was Messier they all feared on the Oilers.

He never jumped into Charlie Huddy or Randy Gregg, MD's arms after scoring a big goal. He was the oilers first Smythe Winner.

Unlike 99, Mess never cared about being on the ice with the goalie pulled to pad his stats (as Sather recently said). He couldnt give a damn about last minute, hang at centre scoring titles, only the Cup.
 

Rand

Registered User
Oct 17, 2002
9,426
0
AskMe
When your the Hart Trophy winner 8 of 9 seasons with Edmonton I think we can safely say you might just be the best player on the team.

Gretzky by an absolute mile. He may not have been incredibly well rounded, but for all of Messier's "leadership, defence, offence" and anything else you care to label him as he couldn't provide anything even remotely near Gretzky.

I'll take the guy whose probably going to score 3 goals and assist on 3 over the guy who might prevent a goal and score 1-2.
Messier is quite literally an embarassment compared to Gretzky and I cannot remember any single season I ever saw of Gretzky with Edmonton wherein I would even consider Messier as having been better.
 

Rand

Registered User
Oct 17, 2002
9,426
0
AskMe
chooch said:
Ask any 80's player - its was Messier they all feared on the Oilers.

The players themselves evidently don't agree with you as they voted Gretzky the winner of the Lester B. Pearson award 5 times during his tenure with Edmonton.
Messier won it twice, and never when he was on the same team as Gretzky.

An award voted on by the players probably indicates whom the players feel is better.
 

JCD

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
14,523
2
Visit site
chooch said:
Messier set a standard of play thats become the prototypical style in the NHL: think Forsberg, Smyth, BrindAmour, LeClair, Lindros, Primeau, Cole, Staal, etc etc. They are all basically Messier. He was the first.

Guess you never heard of this Gordie Howe character...

chooch said:
Messier was not only the Oilers leader but also their spirit and soul. Had he gotten the ice time that 99 and his agent demanded did or the on ice freedom from the refs and opposition like 99 he might have scored 150 and had 200 penalty minutes.

Sure. Messier got gobs of ice time on the second line (think: Sakic-Forsberg), almost as much as Wayne, and never managed even 130 points. To say he didn't produce for a lack of icetime is woefully inaccurate.

chooch said:
But then he wouldnt have become a legend. He was all man.

Please keep your fantasies to yourself. What you do in your own bedroom is your business, I just don't want to hear about it.

chooch said:
Ask any 80's player - its was Messier they all feared on the Oilers.

Seems those players disagree with you: Wayne won 5 Pearson's in the 80's. Messier won one.

chooch said:
He never jumped into Charlie Huddy or Randy Gregg, MD's arms after scoring a big goal.

No, he jumped into Waynes:
http://nhl.speedera.net/photos/g/gretzky_messier_celebrate_oilers194.jpg

chooch said:
He was the oilers first Smythe Winner.

Which was his only Smythe. By the way, Wayne won 2 of them and damn near won Messier's as well (IIRC, it was a differenc of 1 or 2 votes, Wayne had 38 points in 16 games).

chooch said:
Unlike 99, Mess never cared about being on the ice with the goalie pulled to pad his stats (as Sather recently said). He couldnt give a damn about last minute, hang at centre scoring titles, only the Cup.

And you can prove this how? The might be true, but as he got older Messier cared only about Messier.
 
Last edited:

jamiebez

Registered User
Apr 5, 2005
4,025
327
Ottawa
God Bless Canada said:
The Oilers in 1990 were not just Messier et al. Their success was a reflection of a lot of guys playing the best hockey of their career, especially Ranford, Tikannen and Simpson. Messier was great, he was their captain, but I wouldn't say 1990 was the best hockey of his career. Also, there were six other players from the five Cups in seven years with the Oilers in 1990, including Kurri, Anderson and Lowe. (Grant Fuhr was injured that playoff).
True enough. 1990 was not one of Messier's better playoff runs. He seemed so off his game, I recall speculation that he was playing through an injury in the earlier rounds. Tikkanen and, IMO, Kurri were the Oilers two best forwards, in addition to Ranford playing way over his head that year.
 

chooch*

Guest
JCD said:
doublespeak.

Messier was better at 43 than 99 was at 33. And it seems like the teams felt the same way since no one wanted wayne when he was going around the l;eague from Kings to Blues to Canucks etc etc hoing for offers. Comparatively speaking Messier was much more in demand - Pearsons dont mean anything; it goes to the player who most helps raise salaries. You want also to give him 7 points for trophies? Most players in the league hated Messier - hated playing against him!

Wayne had 40% more even strength goals against than any other player in history. The only Art Ross being a minus.

Dont forget the 62nd record - slowest player ever. Watching him skate in the 90's was painful. And still no one slashed or hit 99.

He never drew a penalty in his life save for Billy Smith in the 83 finals (oops!).
 

JCD

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
14,523
2
Visit site
chooch said:
Messier was better at 43 than 99 was at 33.

Laughable. Is is your style.

Gretzky won his 10th Art Ross when he was 33. Messier was a has-been 3rd liner living off his reputation at 43.

chooch said:
And it seems like the teams felt the same way since no one wanted wayne when he was going around the l;eague from Kings to Blues to Canucks etc etc hoing for offers.

Again, laughable. This is so absurd that it is hard to comprehend somebody so idiotic that they could concieve such a notion.

Nobody wanted Wayne on their team? Odd, his trade to the Kings is considered one of the biggest in all of North American Sports (and widely lamented in Edmonton). As an impended UFA, he commanded a King's ransom from the Blues. His third, and final, stop was to New York where he also commanded a huge salary. Once he was a FA, Wayne basically got to pick what team he wanted to play for.

chooch said:
Comparatively speaking Messier was much more in demand -

Man, the jokes just keep on coming. Who got more in trade when the Oilers dumped them, Mess or Wayne? Mess commanded a hefty sum from the Nucks, and then was considered a massive FA bust. When the Nucks cut him, he didn't have anywhere near the demand Wayne when he hit the market. He ended up back with the Rangers, where he lasted only 1 season on the top line.

chooch said:
Pearsons dont mean anything; it goes to the player who most helps raise salaries.

Actually, they go to who the players deem the league's MVP. Not sure what award you are referrencing, it must only be given out in your fantasy world.

chooch said:
You want also to give him 7 points for trophies? Most players in the league hated Messier - hated playing against him!

Players did hate playing against Messier. But they feared being embarrassed playing against Wayne even more.

chooch said:
Wayne had 40% more even strength goals against than any other player in history.

Also had more assists than anybody else had points. I fail to see your point here.

chooch said:
The only Art Ross being a minus.
You say that like it has any significance. That was a terrible Kings team. Only a player like Gretzky could have won an Art Ross playing there.

chooch said:
Dont forget the 62nd record - slowest player ever. Watching him skate in the 90's was painful.

Pretty clueless statement. Par for the course from you.

chooch said:
And still no one slashed or hit 99.

For good reason. You missed, you just gave up a goal. Plus, Gretzky was elusive as hell on the ice, he didn't let himself get lined up.

chooch said:
He never drew a penalty in his life save for Billy Smith in the 83 finals (oops!).

Other than those other 575 minutes you mean? I swear, you must be allergic to logic. Why would you want the best player in the world wasting time in the penalty box?
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
chooch said:
Messier was better at 43 than 99 was at 33.
.

Messier got 43 points and 18 goals as a 43 year old. The team he played for had not made the playoffs in 7 seasons.

At 33 Gretzky led the NHL in scoring and got 130 points. He had 46 more points than the 2nd place guy on the Kings (Robitaille)

Gretz was coming off the best playoff of his career. He finished 4th and 3rd in NHL scoring after that point and got 16, 20, and 20 points in 13, 15 and 13 playoff games past that point.
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
17
Bentley reunion
JCD said:
Laughable. Is is your style.

Gretzky won his 10th Art Ross when he was 33. Messier was a has-been 3rd liner living off his reputation at 43.



Again, laughable. This is so absurd that it is hard to comprehend somebody so idiotic that they could concieve such a notion.

Nobody wanted Wayne on their team? Odd, his trade to the Kings is considered one of the biggest in all of North American Sports (and widely lamented in Edmonton). As an impended UFA, he commanded a King's ransom from the Blues. His third, and final, stop was to New York where he also commanded a huge salary. Once he was a FA, Wayne basically got to pick what team he wanted to play for.



Man, the jokes just keep on coming. Who got more in trade when the Oilers dumped them, Mess or Wayne? Mess commanded a hefty sum from the Nucks, and then was considered a massive FA bust. When the Nucks cut him, he didn't have anywhere near the demand Wayne when he hit the market. He ended up back with the Rangers, where he lasted only 1 season on the top line.



Actually, they go to who the players deem the league's MVP. Not sure what award you are referrencing, it must only be given out in your fantasy world.



Players did hate playing against Messier. But they feared being embarrassed playing against Wayne even more.



Also had more assists than anybody else had points. I fail to see your point here.


You say that like it has any significance. That was a terrible Kings team. Only a player like Gretzky could have won an Art Ross playing there.



Pretty clueless statement. Par for the course from you.



For good reason. You missed, you just gave up a goal. Plus, Gretzky was elusive as hell on the ice, he didn't let himself get lined up.



Other than those other 575 minutes you mean? I swear, you must be allergic to logic. Why would you want the best player in the world wasting time in the penalty box?
JCD,

Do yourself a favour, and put HF's village idiot, chooch, on your ignore list. He's a waste of your time. I've heard posters complain that their IQ points drop every time they read his Stalin-esque revisionist history drivel.

My eight-year-old cousin has better debate skills and writing ability than chooch.
 

JCD

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
14,523
2
Visit site
God Bless Canada said:
JCD,

Do yourself a favour, and put HF's village idiot, chooch, on your ignore list. He's a waste of your time. I've heard posters complain that their IQ points drop every time they read his Stalin-esque revisionist history drivel.

My eight-year-old cousin has better debate skills and writing ability than chooch.

I am quite familiar with chooch and agree completely. How he is not banned is beyond me.

I am testing software today, so had time to kill. Thought I would toy with the chooch for a while.
 

Randall Graves*

Guest
JCD said:
Their odds of winning 4 Cups without Messier are a heck of a lot better than winning 4 Cups without Gretzky.

At no point during their Oiler career was Messier a better player than Gretzky, nor was he more vital to his team's success.
So?

they still wouldn't have won that many cups without him. Is it fair to say Messier was the grit and glue guy of the team?
 

JCD

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
14,523
2
Visit site
RallyKiller said:
So?

they still wouldn't have won that many cups without him. Is it fair to say Messier was the grit and glue guy of the team?

Certainly fair. Also fair to say he was a key to their success. However, being the glue and being a key part doesn't overshadow what Gretzky meant to them. You asked who was more important to the Oiler's dynasty. The answer is Gretzky.

Take away Messier, Oilers still have a shot at beating the Islanders. Take away Wayne, they don't have a prayer.
 

David Puddy

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
5,824
2
New Jersey, USA
Visit site
chooch said:
Wayne had 40% more even strength goals against than any other player in history.
Is that so? Wayne Gretzky's Even Strength Goal Differential is significantly better than that of Mark Messier. Have a look.

Code:
[U]PLAYER 	GF	GA	DIF[/U]
Gretzky	2356	1838	518
Messier	1662	1455	207

Gretzky's differential is a wopping 67% higher than Messier's.

chooch said:
Messier was better at 43 than 99 was at 33.
At 37 years old in his second to last season, Wayne Gretzky finished tied for third with 90 Points in the NHL in scoring, one point behind Forsberg for second. Messier only had 60 Points.

chooch said:
Most players in the league hated Messier - hated playing against him!
Then why did they vote him one Pearson?
 

Bring Back Bucky

Registered User
May 19, 2004
9,997
3,071
Canadas Ocean Playground
God Bless Canada said:
JCD,

Do yourself a favour, and put HF's village idiot, chooch, on your ignore list. He's a waste of your time. I've heard posters complain that their IQ points drop every time they read his Stalin-esque revisionist history drivel.

My eight-year-old cousin has better debate skills and writing ability than chooch.


I'm sure the youngster has much more impressive skills than just that ;)
 

Rand

Registered User
Oct 17, 2002
9,426
0
AskMe
chooch said:
Pearsons dont mean anything; it goes to the player who most helps raise salaries.
If that were true then Alexei Yashin would be a runaway favourite every season, h'es done substantially more to raise salaries across the NHL then anyne else in recent years.
Joe Thornton for his rookie contract almost certainly would have as well.

Do you have anything at all to back up your assertion that the players vote based solely on who does the most to raise salaries?
Their past voting preferences certainly doesn't seem to indicate they ahve any remote consideration for salary.
Especially since some of those winners were largely considered underpraid at the time they won it.


chooch said:
Messier was better at 43 than 99 was at 33. And it seems like the teams felt the same way since no one wanted wayne when he was going around the l;eague from Kings to Blues to Canucks etc etc hoing for offers. Comparatively speaking Messier was much more in demand

At 33 Wayne Gretzky won the Art Ross trophy... at 43 Messier was long since past his prime and even most of those in New York thought he'd held on playing years too long and was becoming a greater liability with every passing season.

The "unwanted" Gretzky pretty much had his pick of teams as an UFA, and for someone no one wated he managed to get ana wfully attractive salary.
He was also so widely disliked he got Edmonton considerably more in trade then did the almighty Messier who was apparently in much demand yet wasn't worth trading as much for.
Messier's lone huge UFA contract came with Vancouver.... who ended up being absolutely thrilled to dump him as a major FA bust of a signing. His vaunted leadership tore the team apart.
 

chooch*

Guest
Gretzky had 48% more ESGA than the next NHLer in history. Where did I say Goal Diff?

Gretzky was traded for Jimmy Carson straight up (both were destructive forces in the locker rooms; Sather had had enough of Gretz) - the money thing was never proven; the NHL would have stepped in otherwise.

Watching Gretz try to skate in his last 4-5 seasons was worth the price of admission. No one would even dare touch him. Those little asissts in yet another Rangers loss were funny too - he was so proud of them with his shirt half tucked out earnestly trying to get a point in the last minute of play.

I know its hard to keep up but I said he never drew a penalty as in "he was never slashed or checked". Who cares how many times he sat in the box himself taking a leak.

Well..... 15% of the polled think Messier was more important than $99. Seems about the right percentage in life and hockey. 85% sheep; 15% thinkers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->