Injury Report: (Monahan) Flames' broken leadership bones and character burns

Anglesmith

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There's a reason that guys like Tkachuk don't get made captain, and it's because a lot of the time the example they set on the ice is not one that others want to follow. Tkachuk plays right on the line between okay and not okay, and unless he changes that, he'll always be a guy who crosses that line from time to time. That's okay for one of the rank-and-file, and it's good to have a strong leader there to set him straight and stand up for him if he ever needs support. But you don't want that in a captain, because a lot of the time his own teammates might have issues with his antics.
 

Mobiandi

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Jan 17, 2015
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There's a reason that guys like Tkachuk don't get made captain, and it's because a lot of the time the example they set on the ice is not one that others want to follow. Tkachuk plays right on the line between okay and not okay, and unless he changes that, he'll always be a guy who crosses that line from time to time. That's okay for one of the rank-and-file, and it's good to have a strong leader there to set him straight and stand up for him if he ever needs support. But you don't want that in a captain, because a lot of the time his own teammates might have issues with his antics.
Meh, look around the NHL. Guys like Getzlaf, Landeskog, and Benn are all captains that walk that line just like Tkachuk. Hell, look at who the NHL leadership award is named after.

Nothing wrong with making guys like Tkachuk captain. The precedent is there too.
 

OvermanKingGainer

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Feb 3, 2015
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Meh, look around the NHL. Guys like Getzlaf, Landeskog, and Benn are all captains that walk that line just like Tkachuk. Hell, look at who the NHL leadership award is named after.

Nothing wrong with making guys like Tkachuk captain. The precedent is there too.

Yep. Guys like Messier, Iginla, Benn, Gilmour, Chara, Ovechkin have made some excellent captains over the years. Obviously Tkachuk has some things he's had to tone down a bit (and the Doughty elbowing incident is one I think he not only regrets but did not actually intend contrary to popular opinion) but guys like Matthew Tkachuk and Sam Bennett are guys you go to war for. I mean I'd go to war for Mark Giordano too so it's a moot point.

I always find it interesting how people want docile, silent captains in the Sakic mold. Sure, when it's an elite grinder like Crosby or Toews the personality part is less relevant but despite Sakic's team success I always thought of Peter Forsberg and Patrick Roy as the true leaders of those Avs teams.

Personally, in a post Gio world I would have the letters doled out as;

C) Bennett
A) Tkachuk
A) Backlund
 

The Gnome

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May 17, 2010
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Yep. Guys like Messier, Iginla, Benn, Gilmour, Chara, Ovechkin have made some excellent captains over the years. Obviously Tkachuk has some things he's had to tone down a bit (and the Doughty elbowing incident is one I think he not only regrets but did not actually intend contrary to popular opinion) but guys like Matthew Tkachuk and Sam Bennett are guys you go to war for. I mean I'd go to war for Mark Giordano too so it's a moot point.

I always find it interesting how people want docile, silent captains in the Sakic mold. Sure, when it's an elite grinder like Crosby or Toews the personality part is less relevant but despite Sakic's team success I always thought of Peter Forsberg and Patrick Roy as the true leaders of those Avs teams.

Personally, in a post Gio world I would have the letters doled out as;

C) Bennett
A) Tkachuk
A) Backlund

You also cannot have a bottom six player as your captain, he's simply not on the ice enough to be effective in a leadership role. Your Bennett love is too much, if he becomes half the player you think he is I'm betting most flames fans will be pleased.
 

Anglesmith

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Yep. Guys like Messier, Iginla, Benn, Gilmour, Chara, Ovechkin have made some excellent captains over the years. Obviously Tkachuk has some things he's had to tone down a bit (and the Doughty elbowing incident is one I think he not only regrets but did not actually intend contrary to popular opinion) but guys like Matthew Tkachuk and Sam Bennett are guys you go to war for. I mean I'd go to war for Mark Giordano too so it's a moot point.

I always find it interesting how people want docile, silent captains in the Sakic mold. Sure, when it's an elite grinder like Crosby or Toews the personality part is less relevant but despite Sakic's team success I always thought of Peter Forsberg and Patrick Roy as the true leaders of those Avs teams.

Personally, in a post Gio world I would have the letters doled out as;

C) Bennett
A) Tkachuk
A) Backlund
Messier, Iginla, Benn, Gilmour, Chara and Ovechkin are not pests, though. Not even remotely comparable to what I'm talking about with Tkachuk.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
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You also cannot have a bottom six player as your captain, he's simply not on the ice enough to be effective in a leadership role. Your Bennett love is too much, if he becomes half the player you think he is I'm betting most flames fans will be pleased.

Bennett is not a bottom six talent. You can be delusional about him but he will have elite seasons in the NHL. The question is if those will come as a Flame or for another team leading another team to deep playoff runs.

Messier, Iginla, Benn, Gilmour, Chara and Ovechkin are not pests, though. Not even remotely comparable to what I'm talking about with Tkachuk.

Tkachuk's no more a pest than Gilmour or Messier. He's an elite power forward just like Benn, Ovechkin, and Iginla. And he's no less guilty of dangerous, physical plays than Chara. He shares plenty in common with all those guys. Talk of his antics is overblown, he's a very driven, serious hockey player with legitimate leadership qualities.
 

Anglesmith

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Bennett is not a bottom six talent. You can be delusional about him but he will have elite seasons in the NHL. The question is if those will come as a Flame or for another team leading another team to deep playoff runs.



Tkachuk's no more a pest than Gilmour or Messier. He's an elite power forward just like Benn, Ovechkin, and Iginla. And he's no less guilty of dangerous, physical plays than Chara. He shares plenty in common with all those guys. Talk of his antics is overblown, he's a very driven, serious hockey player with legitimate leadership qualities.

No, I think you're wrong on that. Tkachuk plays hard nosed like those guys do. He also does some silly stuff between the whistles to troll and agitate the other team, well above and beyond the normal stuff that every hockey player does. Just watch for it next year. There isn't really a single opportunity he turns down to get a rise out of the other team. The Witkowski incident and his spearing-from-the-bench incident this year were two examples where he crossed the line, but it's just a continuation of the kind of stuff he does after every whistle, always having to take the extra poke.

I don't want to give the impression that I don't like it. I'm happy that he's on my team. I just don't think you necessarily want that guy as your captain.
 
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OvermanKingGainer

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No, I think you're wrong on that. Tkachuk plays hard nosed like those guys do. He also does some silly stuff between the whistles to troll and agitate the other team, well above and beyond the normal stuff that every hockey player does. Just watch for it next year. There isn't really a single opportunity he turns down to get a rise out of the other team. The Witkowski incident and his spearing-from-the-bench incident this year were two examples where he crossed the line, but it's just a continuation of the kind of stuff he does after every whistle, always having to take the extra poke.

I don't want to give the impression that I don't like it. I'm happy that he's on my team. I just don't think you necessarily want that guy as your captain.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Tkachuk is absolutely the kind of guy I want as my captain. To me a captain is a high-end player who does small things in a consistent manner that lesser players can emulate. Tkachuk's absolutely the kind of player I want my lesser players to emulate. A team with Tkachuk as a captain has an identity. Know what our problem was last year? NO identity. Not because of Giordano, but because the other two letter wearers were Troy Brouwer and Sean Monahan, two players with no identity. Of course, with that last part I'm about to get bashed for having an opinion in three... two... one...
 
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viper0220

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Oct 10, 2008
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The sling has vanished.

The spirits are up.

The timetable is bang-on schedule.

"Everything," reports Sean Monahan, "is going just as planned.

"The hip area, I'd say, is 100 percent cleared and now it's a matter of being back on the ice and getting used to shooting and stuff again.

"I've been working out and haven't been limited in doing anything."

Post-season, when news broke of the full extent of the injuries Johnny Gaudreau's partner in crime and fulcrum of the Flames' top line had been dealing with, it seemed mind-boggling.


Four surgeries: Wrist, groin, and two for hernias."

"But the wrist … it's just more annoying than anything. In a cast for six weeks, you get it off and your arm feels a little weird for a while.

"Getting that motion back in your hand, because it's been stabilized for a long time - that one you've gotta work through.

"My wrist had been bothering for me for a long time. Probably the last 30, 40 games of the season I literally could barely hold my stick.

"Which is tough being a centreman when you've got to take faceoffs."


If Sean Monahan remains healthy for the 82 games, I see him hitting 40 goals. It is amazing that he scored 31 goals with all the those injuries.

MAKING PROGRESS

 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Messier, Iginla, Benn, Gilmour, Chara and Ovechkin are not pests, though. Not even remotely comparable to what I'm talking about with Tkachuk.

No, I think you're wrong on that. Tkachuk plays hard nosed like those guys do. He also does some silly stuff between the whistles to troll and agitate the other team, well above and beyond the normal stuff that every hockey player does. Just watch for it next year. There isn't really a single opportunity he turns down to get a rise out of the other team. The Witkowski incident and his spearing-from-the-bench incident this year were two examples where he crossed the line, but it's just a continuation of the kind of stuff he does after every whistle, always having to take the extra poke.

I don't want to give the impression that I don't like it. I'm happy that he's on my team. I just don't think you necessarily want that guy as your captain.

Exactly AS.

It's like these guys are ignoring the most important part of wearing a letter, they're the ones who interact with the officials. The "C" and "A" a player may wear is more or less ceremonial, it doesn't limit who is a leader. All it does is dictate who will be dealing with the officials. Guys like Benn and Getzlaf might cross the line and lay a questionable hit on occasion, but they aren't involved in the antics like tapping a guy with your stick as he's headed off the ice. The guys that interact with officials don't need to be Lady Byng candidates, but they need to have the respect of the officials.
 

Anglesmith

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We'll just have to agree to disagree. Tkachuk is absolutely the kind of guy I want as my captain. To me a captain is a high-end player who does small things in a consistent manner that lesser players can emulate.

I agree 100% that a captain needs to be this, and I fully support that Tkachuk himself is this.

Tkachuk's absolutely the kind of player I want my lesser players to emulate.

If all of the players on the team emulated the full scope of Tkachuk's game, we would be the most penalized team in the league by far, and I don't think that's a recipe for success. But that is beside the point, because it's not as though putting a C on a guy's chest and the rest of the rank-and-file just flip a switch and suddenly blindly follow him. Captains generally emerge organically. Like with Giordano, usually a guy is already "the guy" before they announce that he's the guy. Tkachuk has been on this roster for two years, and in that time, have his antics started to rub off into other guy's games?

My concern isn't that Tkachuk's game isn't something I'd want other guys following, necessarily, but rather I don't think it's something that a lot of other players are willing to follow and would be proud to follow. I think Tkachuk does some things during the game that his teammates aren't necessarily proud of. They're definitely happy to have him on the team and appreciate what he does both with his talent and his pest act, and I also think they're willing to stand up for him and support him when he crosses the line. But I would bet there have been multiple incidents over the last two seasons where he's been talked to by the leaders on this squad. And therein is the problem. How does that work if he's captain?

As I say, the captain and the leadership group usually develops organically for a team that is at the stage that the Flames are at. The reason to give a guy the C and place him in an official sense at the top of the locker-room hierarchy is because he's already there in a de facto sense. If I had to determine a quantitative approach to picking your captain, I'd say you take the number of times he talks to other guys to help them and subtract the number of times he gets talked to by other players. The guy with the best difference is probably your captain. A guy like Giordano has a great difference because what is anyone ever going to have to talk to him about? His play on the ice and his habits off the ice are above reproach. So no one reproaches him. To mix sports, if Tkachuk was going to ever be a captain, he'll have to be a Roy Keane kind of captain. He crossed the line plenty of times to his teammates' chagrin, but pulled on the rope so hard with his leadership abilities that it tipped the balance far enough the other way. I don't know if Tkachuk will ever be able to tip the balance far enough to outweigh the other strong leaders on the team.

A team with Tkachuk as a captain has an identity. Know what our problem was last year? NO identity. Not because of Giordano, but because the other two letter wearers were Troy Brouwer and Sean Monahan, two players with no identity. Of course, with that last part I'm about to get bashed for having an opinion in three... two... one...

Identity (like personality) is one of those buzzwords that gets tossed around with no one paying attention to what it actually means. The first lesson in a crash course on how to use these words properly is this: everyone has a personality, and everyone has an identity. By definition. In this case, OKG, it isn't having an opinion that I'm going to bash you for. It's the fact that you're saying something that is objectively false.

The fault in being unable to describe a player's identity isn't the player's. It's whoever is incapable of figuring it out. In hockey, there are a few popular identity types that everyone is happy to see and acknowledge. Everything else is ignored. Same happens with teams, as everyone loves to point out the "big and tough," "hard-working and tenacious," "trapping" or "speedy" teams. And of course, those terms are only used to describe winners. Think of Washington. One game away from the Stanley Cup. Now if I asked you to tell me what their team identity is, I bet you'd be more than happy to come up with something, because to not do so would contradict your narrative. But roll it back to the start of the playoffs, and no one was picking Washington, with many of them claiming that it was because they lacked an identity. It's just yet another narrative that gets int he way of honest analysis.

Anyway, to get back from that tangent, Monahan and Brouwer both definitely have identities. To describe Brouwer's identity at this point of his career would... not be very flattering. Monahan, though, is a guy who pretty reliably goes out and does the same things game in and game out. Explaining his identity is easy, not difficult.

I still am not sure if Monahan is the next captain, myself. I, too, would prefer a more physical player with a higher motor. Maybe he can become that by the time Giordano retires.
 

Johnny Hoxville

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If Tkachuk were to ever be named captain, I think it’s a given that some of his antics would need to be toned down. The fact is though, I can’t think of another forward we have that sacrifices himself in game and does all the little things it takes to win the way Chucky does.

Monahan playing hurt the way he did is absolutely commendable and you love to have a player that is committed to his team. But I don’t feel that his play inspires others or pulls his teammates into a game the way Tkachuk does.

The only real argument I can hear for Tkachuk not being the guy is because of his antics in between whistles. Well that’s pretty simple, all he needs to do is stop that and he will as he matures. Guys like Getzlaf, Benn and Ovechkin are not Boy Scouts and they have played on the line for years. I’d love having Tkachuk as our captain because he’s a winner and understand what it takes to win better than anyone else on our team.
 

Lunatik

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If Tkachuk were to ever be named captain, I think it’s a given that some of his antics would need to be toned down. The fact is though, I can’t think of another forward we have that sacrifices himself in game and does all the little things it takes to win the way Chucky does.

Monahan playing hurt the way he did is absolutely commendable and you love to have a player that is committed to his team. But I don’t feel that his play inspires others or pulls his teammates into a game the way Tkachuk does.

The only real argument I can hear for Tkachuk not being the guy is because of his antics in between whistles. Well that’s pretty simple, all he needs to do is stop that and he will as he matures. Guys like Getzlaf, Benn and Ovechkin are not Boy Scouts and they have played on the line for years. I’d love having Tkachuk as our captain because he’s a winner and understand what it takes to win better than anyone else on our team.
Once you remove that pest element from his game, he won't be as effective as a player IMO. Plus, drawing penalties can be massive if we have a decent PP.
 
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Johnny Hoxville

The Return of a Legend
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Once you remove that pest element from his game, he won't be as effective as a player IMO. Plus, drawing penalties can be massive if we have a decent PP.

Tkachuk will always be a pest. I’m talking about removing all the unnecessary crap from his game. Going at guys, crashing the crease, earning his space on the ice, all while showing up when it matters is how I’d expect him to play.

Also people talk about Gio like he’s a role model player. There’s a lot of teams in the NHL that can’t stand him and think he’s a dirty player for making hits with intent to injure. We know that’s bs and he’s a stand up guy, but the point is it matters what the guys in the room think.

I love Monahan and think he would be a terrific captain. But seeing what we lacked this past season, if I had to pick between the 2 guys, I’d go with Chucky.

Right now my choices would be: Tkachuk, Monahan, Backlund
 

SmellOfVictory

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Jun 3, 2011
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Yep. Guys like Messier, Iginla, Benn, Gilmour, Chara, Ovechkin have made some excellent captains over the years.
Nobody has a problem with Tkachuk being a "power forward" from a capitancy perspective; they have a problem with him toeing/crossing the line in terms of acceptable play. Iginla, Chara, and Ovechkin don't belong on that list. Aside from the very unfortunate Pacioretty incident Chara is a remarkably safe player for such a big dude, Ovechkin is physical without being "dirty", and Iginla is a gosh damned saint.
 
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Anglesmith

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Nobody has a problem with Tkachuk being a "power forward" from a capitancy perspective; they have a problem with him toeing/crossing the line in terms of acceptable play. Iginla, Chara, and Ovechkin don't belong on that list. Aside from the very unfortunate Pacioretty incident Chara is a remarkably safe player for such a big dude, Ovechkin is physical without being "dirty", and Iginla is a gosh damned saint.
For my part, I don't have a problem with anything about Tkachuk. I think you have to take the occasional bad moment as part of having a player playing on that line, and I don't personally want him to stop playing on that line, because I think it is very valuable to this team. I just don't think you want that guy to be the captain.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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Personally I like someone with a bit of Swagger.

I could see Juuso making a good captain. Tkachuk, no way should he be a captain ever. Assistant all day. But I think you need your caotaun to be calm. Not someone who goes ape shit at times.
 

Ace Rimmer

Stoke me a clipper.
Meh, look around the NHL. Guys like Getzlaf, Landeskog, and Benn are all captains that walk that line just like Tkachuk. Hell, look at who the NHL leadership award is named after.

Nothing wrong with making guys like Tkachuk captain. The precedent is there too.
I don't want Tkachuk walking the line though, I want him crossing it every now and then.
 
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SmellOfVictory

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Personally I like someone with a bit of Swagger.

I could see Juuso making a good captain. Tkachuk, no way should he be a captain ever. Assistant all day. But I think you need your caotaun to be calm. Not someone who goes ape **** at times.
I find this a little weird simply because Tkachuk is outrageously unflappable. He never goes apeshit, and he emotionally reacts less to confrontation/agitation than basically anyone I've ever seen on the Flames (including captains Iginla and Giordano).
 

SmellOfVictory

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Jun 3, 2011
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I don't want Tkachuk walking the line though, I want him crossing it every now and then.
We certainly differ there. I'd much rather have a high end player who pees off opponents constantly, draws tons of penalties, and competes hard, while avoiding penalties (or dangerous plays) on his part. I find Tkachuk post-public apology to have been more palatable than the slewfooting line crosser we saw prior.
 

Rangediddy

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Oct 28, 2011
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Personally I like someone with a bit of Swagger.

I could see Juuso making a good captain. Tkachuk, no way should he be a captain ever. Assistant all day. But I think you need your caotaun to be calm. Not someone who goes ape **** at times.
I've literally never seen him go ape **** at any time.
 

Lunatik

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I find this a little weird simply because Tkachuk is outrageously unflappable. He never goes ape****, and he emotionally reacts less to confrontation/agitation than basically anyone I've ever seen on the Flames (including captains Iginla and Giordano).
Yeah, I don't get that post either. He's made questionable decisions, but never gone ape shit.
 

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