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theYman

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Feb 28, 2008
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Yes! Vancouver wins in OT no less. Daniel Sedin you beautiful bastard!! Key is that Yotes get a point.
 

theYman

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Feb 28, 2008
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Shutting out Ottawa has now turned out to be the most meaningless win of the the season. I'm still not over that one. We could be down there in 2nd.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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Shutting out Ottawa has now turned out to be the most meaningless win of the the season. I'm still not over that one. We could be down there in 2nd.
Ottawa looked like an ECHL team in that one. Short of actually shooting the puck into our own net I’m not sure how we could have lost.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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Based on 17 Middlestat- Rass, 16 Nylander Sergachev, 15 Werenski Meier, 14 Nylander Ehlers, 13 Ristolain Horvath, 12 Trouba Pouliot, 11 Hamilton Coutarier those are 8 and 9 picks going back to 11 I'm sorry I don't see the pick as the huge shot in the ass the team needs. Will it help yes is it gonna change things? Nope not for a bit Add anyone of those players to our roster no change at all.
Anyone of those players would be a massive addition. 70+ point Selke caliber Coutorier wouldn’t change anything? Werenski is pretty much exactly what we’re missing.

It’s also disingenious to talk only 8/9 picks when you say anything but top 3 picks doesn’t do anything for us. We could draft 6-7 pretty realistically, and still a small chance to drop and have a chance at 4-5. All that is beside the lottery chance, spend enough time in the bottom 10 and we will win a top 3 pick or two eventually. It’s a process and I wouldn’t say picks in the 3-10 range don’t matter when we have literally zero of those picks on our roster.
 

Lampedampe

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Feb 26, 2015
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Yes! Vancouver wins in OT no less. Daniel Sedin you beautiful bastard!! Key is that Yotes get a point.

Yotes can't pass the Wings I'm afraid (if I got it right that is). They'll tie in ROW's if they win next game and wings lose, but the tie breaker will go to wings because they've won both games against the yotes.

Best we can hope for is a loss against Islanders and a win for Habs vs leafs.
 
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jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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Yotes can't pass the Wings I'm afraid (if I got it right that is). They'll tie in ROW's if they win next game and wings lose, but the tie breaker will go to wings because they've won both games against the yotes.

Best we can hope for is a loss against Islanders and a win for Habs vs leafs.
Nope, Arizona has a ROW of 27, while Detroit has a ROW of 25. We still have the tie breaker against the Coyotes, so the Wings still could finish 29th in the standings.
 

Lampedampe

Registered User
Feb 26, 2015
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Nope, Arizona has a ROW of 27, while Detroit has a ROW of 25. We still have the tie breaker against the Coyotes, so the Wings still could finish 29th in the standings.

Oh yeah, you're correct. I could've sworn I was looking at ROW's but I guess I'm abit tired since it seems like I was just looking at wins, my bad.

There's a solid chance of finishing 29th then.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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Based on 17 Middlestat- Rass, 16 Nylander Sergachev, 15 Werenski Meier, 14 Nylander Ehlers, 13 Ristolain Horvath, 12 Trouba Pouliot, 11 Hamilton Coutarier those are 8 and 9 picks going back to 11 I'm sorry I don't see the pick as the huge shot in the ass the team needs. Will it help yes is it gonna change things? Nope not for a bit Add anyone of those players to our roster no change at all.

17 - too early
16 - Don't know about this Nylander, but Sergachev is a stud. Montreal gave him up for Drouin and that looks like a steal for Tampa.
15 - Didn't Werenski look like a top pairing guy? Don't know about Meier.
14- William Nylander... doesn't he have multiple 60 point seasons? Isn't Ehlers a 60-70 point winger?
13- Ristolainen is a top pairing D. If he were on a team other than Buffalo, you wouldn't poo poo him. Horvat was another guy who's a solid #1/2C with huge potential.
12- Trouba, again top pairing potential. Pouliot kinda sucks for being drafted that high
11- Hamilton and Couturier. One is another decent top pairing guy/exceptional middle pairing guy in the making and the other is basically Kris Draper but with a scoring touch.

I seriously don't understand how some people here think.

How in the hell are 5 D who would pretty easily be the top guy on our team and who are in line to be on the top pairing on their teams if they're not already and 6 Cs/Ws who are better than anything we have and are legit top 6 and many top line guys not the shot in the ass the team needs?

God damn, do you know how much further this team would be along if they had a legit top pairing D? If they added another legit young top 6C?

This is ridiculous. You listed a bunch of guys who, while they wouldn't 100% cure all of our ills, are fantastic players who would step in and be an upgrade on damn near every guy on this roster.

I mean, what the hell do you want out of the draft? You don't just magically fix everything in one go. Nashville has an awesome defense, right? They got it from a 2nd round pick (Weber --> Subban), a late 1st (Josi), a late 1st (Ellis), and maybe another late first (Ekholm). They have Fabbro that they got with 18 OA. You take the best player you can with the pick you have and you don't get pissed that you didn't land the #1 OA pick.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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Read the thread.
It's right here. In this forum topic.

Stats in junior leagues mean **** all to me.

- Teemu Pulkkinen was PPG+ in the AHL and he was garbage in the NHL.
-Jurco was PPG+ in the AHL, he was garbage in the NHL.
-Kirk Maltby scored 50+ goals in a season in the OHL, he's lucky if he touched that in a 5 year period in the NHL.

Using junior league or minor league stats to support one player > another player as an NHL prospect as if it's fact is ludicrous.

If Rasmussen was ****ing on himself and had like 5 points in 35 games or something... then by all means, whine about the pick. He's performing very well in that league with skills that look like they will translate. Focus on what you (or the team) have (has), not what you don't.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
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Stats in junior leagues mean **** all to me.

- Teemu Pulkkinen was PPG+ in the AHL and he was garbage in the NHL.
-Jurco was PPG+ in the AHL, he was garbage in the NHL.
-Kirk Maltby scored 50+ goals in a season in the OHL, he's lucky if he touched that in a 5 year period in the NHL.

Using junior league or minor league stats to support one player > another player as an NHL prospect as if it's fact is ludicrous.

If Rasmussen was ****ing on himself and had like 5 points in 35 games or something... then by all means, whine about the pick. He's performing very well in that league with skills that look like they will translate. Focus on what you (or the team) have (has), not what you don't.

Those examples are different. Those guys had flaws that made them fall out of the 1st round. So there were known issues other than production.

With guys who are good enough to be top 10-15 picks, I do think stats matter. Draft season and +1 season benchmark pretty well with CHL players. Not all guys who are top producers in Juniors become top producers in pros, but virtually no one who is a top producing pro was not a top producer in Juniors.

Hard to know how healthy Rasmussen was, but 1.25 PPG in his +1 season for a top 15 pick does not put him in the greatest of company. I would not call that "performing very well", although he has been on a different level in the playoffs so far. So it's possible his numbers would have been better without battling injuries during the regular season.
 
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Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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Rasmussen's development is overrated.
He went from
50 games 32-23-55
to
47 games 31-28-59

for a draft to D+1 year, that's a pretty insignificant increase.
He had a nice season, though injury prone. But it's tough to get real excited about it.

End of the day, Rasmussen was 24th in WHL point per game scoring.
Not exactly a world beater for a top 10 pick in his D+1 season.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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The list of guys who don't produce in Juniors but are productive pros? I mean, you will struggle to find examples I can tell you that.

Hard to know how healthy Rasmussen was, but 1.25 PPG in his +1 season for a top 15 pick does not put him in the greatest of company. I would not call that "performing very well", although he has been on a different level in the playoffs so far. So it's possible his numbers would have been better without battling injuries.
Pierre Luc Dubois was 1.15PPG in his d+1 in a weaker league than the WHL and now has had a strong rookie season with a great 2nd half. Half-decent comparable in terms of player type too.

Ras also outproduced Getzlaf's d+2 season, scored more goals than Getzlaf did in his d+1, and has more playoff points this year than Getzlaf had in his d-1, d+0 and d+1 combined.

He didn't have the kind of junior season that make people (foolishly) think of him as a lock to be a superstar, but he had better ES/PP splits, he had a great pre-season, he had a pretty long stretch of high PPG play, seemed to be slowed down by injuries a bit, and is currently having a terrific playoff run where he could go pointless in the next 8 games and still be PPG. If people weren't so down on him from the get-go I think opinion of his season would be more positive.
 
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Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
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Pierre Luc Dubois was 1.15PPG in his d+1 in a weaker league than the WHL and now has had a strong rookie season with a great 2nd half. Half-decent comparable in terms of player type too.

Ras also outproduced Getzlaf's d+2 season, scored more goals than Getzlaf did in his d+1, and has more playoff points this year than Getzlaf had in his d-2, d-1 and d+1 combined.

Yeah, PLD is the best example of a guy with a so-so +1 still becoming a good player. It is certainly possible. Getzlaf was at 1.5 PPG in his +1 and at an Assist/Game in his +1 year, not sure why his numbers fell off so hard in his +2, but yeah, they definitely did.

On the other side, guys like Crouse (1.26 PPG), Connolly (1.23 PPG), and Zacha (1.25 PPG) are other examples of top 15 picks around that 1.25 PPG mark in their +1 in recent years.

So while it is not a kiss of death, again, just saying it isn't the best company to be in. These playoffs for him are good though, because they suggest maybe he was hurt and his numbers would have been higher in the regular season like we have seen in the playoffs. So that's something to consider for sure.
 
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Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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Cleveland
My issue with Rasmussen is if he doesn't translate to center in the NHL. If he can become a Bobby Holik type player for us, that's not a bad thing to have. I keep seeing he's been moved to wing, though? If he's going to wing, I'm less thrilled - especially since the major knock on Vilardi was that he was unlikely to translate his game to center in the NHL.
 

BinCookin

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Feb 15, 2012
6,160
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London, ON
My issue with Rasmussen is if he doesn't translate to center in the NHL. If he can become a Bobby Holik type player for us, that's not a bad thing to have. I keep seeing he's been moved to wing, though? If he's going to wing, I'm less thrilled - especially since the major knock on Vilardi was that he was unlikely to translate his game to center in the NHL.

He was 60% on The faceoff dot this season 301FOW/575FOA(attempts)
If appears as though he is playing wing in the playoffs so far as he isn't taking a lot of draws.

But clearly he knows how to win draws.

I cant say if he will be a winger / center, but he definitely has been playing Center a lot this year, only recently playing wing.
 

Goalie guy

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Jul 8, 2011
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17 - too early
16 - Don't know about this Nylander, but Sergachev is a stud. Montreal gave him up for Drouin and that looks like a steal for Tampa.
15 - Didn't Werenski look like a top pairing guy? Don't know about Meier.
14- William Nylander... doesn't he have multiple 60 point seasons? Isn't Ehlers a 60-70 point winger?
13- Ristolainen is a top pairing D. If he were on a team other than Buffalo, you wouldn't poo poo him. Horvat was another guy who's a solid #1/2C with huge potential.
12- Trouba, again top pairing potential. Pouliot kinda sucks for being drafted that high
11- Hamilton and Couturier. One is another decent top pairing guy/exceptional middle pairing guy in the making and the other is basically Kris Draper but with a scoring touch.

I seriously don't understand how some people here think.

How in the hell are 5 D who would pretty easily be the top guy on our team and who are in line to be on the top pairing on their teams if they're not already and 6 Cs/Ws who are better than anything we have and are legit top 6 and many top line guys not the shot in the ass the team needs?

God damn, do you know how much further this team would be along if they had a legit top pairing D? If they added another legit young top 6C?

This is ridiculous. You listed a bunch of guys who, while they wouldn't 100% cure all of our ills, are fantastic players who would step in and be an upgrade on damn near every guy on this roster.

I mean, what the hell do you want out of the draft? You don't just magically fix everything in one go. Nashville has an awesome defense, right? They got it from a 2nd round pick (Weber --> Subban), a late 1st (Josi), a late 1st (Ellis), and maybe another late first (Ekholm). They have Fabbro that they got with 18 OA. You take the best player you can with the pick you have and you don't get pissed that you didn't land the #1 OA pick.
And thank you for both proving my point for me. We have a number 9 pick who is not on the team. And yes there are some good players I would ask again if adding just one because that is all we have for picks that high would change the team at all? I say no you add a young top pair D and what does it really do in the long run? It may get us back to a bubble team and more lower picks, more middle aged filler contracts and we float along in this perpetual state of not good enough and not bad enough to improve.
 

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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We have not seen the worst of this team yet. we will have a few more years of getting worse before we get better.

I'm not so sure about that. Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi and AA are young and improving. The old guys already suck. I would say at worst theyre likely to stay around where they are right now for a couple years but with quite a few young guys in the line up and improving I doubt they get way worse. I doubt theyre much better next year, but after that I could see some noticeable iprovement.

Me?
Try every serious published prospect evaluator on the Internet.
Even though Vilardi didn't play a god damned game before Christmas, he rushed up everyone's prospect lists.

Corey Pronman's top 50 drafted prospects
Pronman: 2017-18 midseason Top 50 NHL prospects
#8 Vilardi
Honorable Mention Rasmussen (Didn't crack the top 50)

You know who is even more serious than every published prospect evaluator on the internet.. NHL scouting departments. Vilardi is passed by 10 teams in his draft year, doesnt play the first half of the season but is bumped up to 8th best prospect? And thats excluding another 3 or 4 drafts included on that list. You dont see how screwed up that is? Pronman has always had a particular skill set he values and a guy like Rasmussen is not close to it.
 

Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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He was 60% on The faceoff dot this season 301FOW/575FOA(attempts)
If appears as though he is playing wing in the playoffs so far as he isn't taking a lot of draws.

But clearly he knows how to win draws.

I cant say if he will be a winger / center, but he definitely has been playing Center a lot this year, only recently playing wing.

And he seemed to be doing very well at center. I've found it a bit odd that Tri-City has shifted him over for the playoffs, but if they win with it, they win with it. At the very least, it his production since being moved bodes well for next year when he's likely lining up on the wing for Detroit.
 

Goalie guy

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Jul 8, 2011
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I'm not so sure about that. Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi and AA are young and improving. The old guys already suck. I would say at worst theyre likely to stay around where they are right now for a couple years but with quite a few young guys in the line up and improving I doubt they get way worse. I doubt theyre much better next year, but after that I could see some noticeable iprovement.




Right but Z E and Kroner are not going any where but getting older and slower. When Z bottoms we are gonna be hurting. Larks is a good young player but not on Z's level yet. And the back end well it's a huge mess. We need the best young D we can get in the drat I have thought and thought about it but the next couple of years our highest pick should be used on the best D at that available pick. We have some good young players up front lets fill the back end out first.
 
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Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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And thank you for both proving my point for me. We have a number 9 pick who is not on the team. And yes there are some good players I would ask again if adding just one because that is all we have for picks that high would change the team at all? I say no you add a young top pair D and what does it really do in the long run? It may get us back to a bubble team and more lower picks, more middle aged filler contracts and we float along in this perpetual state of not good enough and not bad enough to improve.

What point?

You're proposing NOT adding a top pairing D or top 6 C with a draft pick which as evidenced is something you can pretty ****ing easily find with a 5-10 draft pick for what? Taking an awful player so we'll be bad enough next time to have a 10% higher chance at getting a good player?

Or to put it more succinctly... You want a mystery box instead of a top pairing defenseman... because the mystery box could anything... even a top pairing defenseman!

If you add a young top pairing D, you start playing a more entertaining brand of hockey. You start playing a more entertaining brand of hockey, more guys want to play for you. You add a young top pairing D, you can slide DeKeyser down to a middle pairing and instead of being a turnstile, he turns back into the plus player he was when he was signed and we had a good Nik Kronwall. You add a young top line C, Mantha starts breaking out and dominating games. Larkin and Z get pushed down a line and instead of Z playing twenty minutes carrying the team on his creaky ass old man back, he's playing 15 minutes against other team's garbage.

Stop droning on about a mantra of being stuck in the mud. You're stuck in the mud with team building if you allow yourself to be. Winnipeg is fantastic now due in large part to guys from picks 5-15. Laine is huge, but Ehlers, Schiefele, Trouba, et al are just as big a part. If Laine was all alone, that team would suck.
 
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Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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I'm not so sure about that. Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi and AA are young and improving. The old guys already suck. I would say at worst theyre likely to stay around where they are right now for a couple years but with quite a few young guys in the line up and improving I doubt they get way worse. I doubt theyre much better next year, but after that I could see some noticeable iprovement.



You know who is even more serious than every published prospect evaluator on the internet.. NHL scouting departments. Vilardi is passed by 10 teams in his draft year, doesnt play the first half of the season but is bumped up to 8th best prospect? And thats excluding another 3 or 4 drafts included on that list. You dont see how screwed up that is? Pronman has always had a particular skill set he values and a guy like Rasmussen is not close to it.

Your point about Pronman's bias is one I'd agree with, except Vilardi doesn't fit Pronman's bias.
 

drwings40

Registered User
Dec 27, 2015
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He was 60% on The faceoff dot this season 301FOW/575FOA(attempts)
If appears as though he is playing wing in the playoffs so far as he isn't taking a lot of draws.

But clearly he knows how to win draws.

I cant say if he will be a winger / center, but he definitely has been playing Center a lot this year, only recently playing wing.

In an article 2 weeks back or so was mentioned that actually the Wings management suggested to Amerks coach to use him at wing:

Playing left wing early in his NHL career will free him from some defensive responsibility.
"If you want to play center in the National Hockey League, unless you're putting up 80-plus points, you got to play defense," Horcoff said. "That's not an easy thing to do against the best players in the world night in and night out. That can be a lot for a young guy to handle.

"You want to build yourself into the best all-around player you can be because the more options you can give a coach to play -- whether it's wing, center, penalty killing, power play -- the more ice time there's going to be for you," Horcoff said.


Red Wings' recent top picks Michael Rasmussen, Dennis Cholowski progress

If I remember correctly he is playing wing mainly since he has returned from his injury in January. Since then he took less and less FOs.
 
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Goalie guy

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What point?

You're proposing NOT adding a top pairing D or top 6 C with a draft pick which as evidenced is something you can pretty ****ing easily find with a 5-10 draft pick for what? Taking an awful player so we'll be bad enough next time to have a 10% higher chance at getting a good player?

Or to put it more succinctly... You want a mystery box instead of a top pairing defenseman... because the mystery box could anything... even a top pairing defenseman!

If you add a young top pairing D, you start playing a more entertaining brand of hockey. You start playing a more entertaining brand of hockey, more guys want to play for you. You add a young top pairing D, you can slide DeKeyser down to a middle pairing and instead of being a turnstile, he turns back into the plus player he was when he was signed and we had a good Nik Kronwall. You add a young top line C, Mantha starts breaking out and dominating games. Larkin and Z get pushed down a line and instead of Z playing twenty minutes carrying the team on his creaky ass old man back, he's playing 15 minutes against other team's garbage.

Stop droning on about a mantra of being stuck in the mud. You're stuck in the mud with team building if you allow yourself to be. Winnipeg is fantastic now due in large part to guys from picks 5-15. Laine is huge, but Ehlers, Schiefele, Trouba, et al are just as big a part. If Laine was all alone, that team would suck.
Reading comprehension is not one your strong points I take it? See my post right above yours that you just made there big guy saying we need to take D with our hi picks for the next couple of years. We have good young kids up front we have no back end at all. Good talk bud.
 

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