Confirmed Signing with Link: (Mod warning OP)[TBL] Brayden Point signs with the Lightning (3 years, $6.75M AAV)

AndreRoy

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From BriseBois’ press conference:

"I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm well aware that there's a narrative that our players have over the last few years, worked with the organization to come to terms on contracts that allow us to keep our players and keep our group going forward and allow us to have the best team possible on the ice. Brayden is the latest example of that and it all started with Steven Stamkos a few years back. By no means do we take that for granted, and we'd like to thank Brayden for working with us here and giving us the best chance of winning the Stanley Cup not only for this season, but for the coming years as well."
 

DownIsTheNewUp

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From BriseBois’ press conference:

"I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm well aware that there's a narrative that our players have over the last few years, worked with the organization to come to terms on contracts that allow us to keep our players and keep our group going forward and allow us to have the best team possible on the ice. Brayden is the latest example of that and it all started with Steven Stamkos a few years back. By no means do we take that for granted, and we'd like to thank Brayden for working with us here and giving us the best chance of winning the Stanley Cup not only for this season, but for the coming years as well."
And that's why all the tax advantage complaints get on my nerves. Is there a tax advantage in some places? Yes, there is some benefit, although it depends on a lot of factors and is largely overstated by many. But it's not enough to make up for how team friendly these deals have been.

The truth is the players in Tampa have bought into the idea of "If I leave some money on the table, I trust this organization will use it to build a better team around me and give me a better shot at winning the cup." We've seen this on other teams and in other sports (i.e. Crosby, Tom Brady, etc) and it seems Tampa has a large number of star players who have bought into it as well.

I'm already a Tampa fan, but it makes it easier to root for guys who really badly want to win and really makes me roll my eyes when people try to dismiss it all as "tax advantage".
 
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Kimota

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Not sure how good management is luck? Also players buying in and taking less to keep the core together to keep our window open longer isn’t luck either.

There are MANY other good teams with good cores and their players never take discounts. Not even Chicago at their peak. Is it because Tampa has "such a friendly group of guys" or it's that maybe the environment is a big plus?
 

CupsOverCash

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There are MANY other good teams with good cores and their players never take discounts. Not even Chicago at their peak. Is it because Tampa has "such a friendly group of guys" or it's that maybe the environment is a big plus?

Remember they didnt just "take discounts". They were also given a NMC/NTC so that we wouldnt trade them or if we did they had control over where they went. The only thing guaranteed is the contract. You dont know how good the player will be during it. So this ensures some job security at least where you are playing. When we have to move somebody its not easy to do because most of these players do not want to move or leave. So its not a bad trade off.
 

DFC

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There are MANY other good teams with good cores and their players never take discounts. Not even Chicago at their peak. Is it because Tampa has "such a friendly group of guys" or it's that maybe the environment is a big plus?
Bobrovsky must be the richest player in the NHL now. Crazy how those other state tax free teams get such huge discounts too. No wonder why they win do many cups.

TB players have been quoted saying they try to talk each other into taking a little less. Some teams have cultures where everybody gets all the money they can, other teams don't.

But somehow with this MASSIVE tax advantage, and a perennial contender, nobody can explain why TB strikes out on every big UFA they aim at.
 

These Are The Days

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Well Point's record for highest paid RFA for 3 years lasted for a few days, now it is Tkachuk at $7m

And probably soon to be surpassed by Laine or Rantanen.


And please let it sink in and quote me on this. I will echo the post directly above me. "Point didn't take a discount because of taxes. He took a discount because the Lightning players (and Killorn in particular) have gone on record saying they stay in touch with each other and outright encourage smaller deals."

The day Stamkos put pen to paper for his extension it started a ripple effect that we've seen ever since. And in 3 years Point will get his big payday and he will be telling the next Lightning hotshot RFA "This is how I did it and it'll happen for you the same way"
 

ThatsSoSlavin

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And that's why all the tax advantage complaints get on my nerves. Is there a tax advantage in some places? Yes, there is some benefit, although it depends on a lot of factors and is largely overstated by many. But it's not enough to make up for how team friendly these deals have been.

The truth is the players in Tampa have bought into the idea of "If I leave some money on the table, I trust this organization will use it to build a better team around me and give me a better shot at winning the cup." We've seen this on other teams and in other sports (i.e. Crosby, Tom Brady, etc) and it seems Tampa has a large number of star players who have bought into it as well.

I'm already a Tampa fan, but it makes it easier to root for guys who really badly want to win and really makes me roll my eyes when people try to dismiss it all as "tax advantage".


Don’t you think it’s an easier sell due to the tax situation? “Take less here and make the same as you would signing 3 million more anywhere else”

I’m sure the players hearts are in the right place but it’s an easier sell when you get to being home everything you signed for.
 

DownIsTheNewUp

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Don’t you think it’s an easier sell due to the tax situation? “Take less here and make the same as you would signing 3 million more anywhere else”

I’m sure the players hearts are in the right place but it’s an easier sell when you get to being home everything you signed for.
Nowhere is there a 3 million per year difference due to taxes. Not on any contract in any city. According the the CapFriendly tax calculator (which is pretty much calculating a worst case tax scenario for the players) Stamkos would be taxed 1.3mil more this year in Toronto than he would be in Tampa. If Hedman were in Toronto the tax difference would be less than a million per year. And like I said that's a worst case scenario, when in reality these guys are putting money in retirement accounts and things that are taxed way less.

So when these guys are signing contracts at 2-3mil per year less than market, they absolutely are leaving money on the table, taxes or not.
 

CupsOverCash

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Nowhere is there a 3 million per year difference due to taxes. Not on any contract in any city. According the the CapFriendly tax calculator (which is pretty much calculating a worst case tax scenario for the players) Stamkos would be taxed 1.3mil more this year in Toronto than he would be in Tampa. If Hedman were in Toronto the tax difference would be less than a million per year. And like I said that's a worst case scenario, when in reality these guys are putting money in retirement accounts and things that are taxed way less.

So when these guys are signing contracts at 2-3mil per year less than market, they absolutely are leaving money on the table, taxes or not.

And these guys dont have to buy into a structure that pays them less. They can ask for more. Nobody is putting a gun to these guys head and telling them to sign it. They buy into this structure and if they didnt tb wouldnt be able to do this. You might then argue that they cant really do that because these guys are RFAs. Well then the rules are the rules and you cant hate TB for taking advantage of the system in front of them. I know its hard for Toronto fans but maybe your gm should have dealt with his RFAs a little smarter in a cap world.
 

Kimota

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Bobrovsky must be the richest player in the NHL now. Crazy how those other state tax free teams get such huge discounts too. No wonder why they win do many cups.

TB players have been quoted saying they try to talk each other into taking a little less. Some teams have cultures where everybody gets all the money they can, other teams don't.

But somehow with this MASSIVE tax advantage, and a perennial contender, nobody can explain why TB strikes out on every big UFA they aim at.

Why go after UFAs when you have all the players you need.
 

AndreRoy

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Why go after UFAs when you have all the players you need.

And that’s what it ultimately comes down to. All of the Lightning’s star players and the vast majority of their supporting cast were homegrown, several of them gems found in later rounds or even undrafted. They haven’t even been a destination for notable UFAs until this season, and even then it’s a group of guys on the tail end of their careers who at best will likely play on our bottom pairing (Shattenkirk) and fourth line (Maroon). The Lightning have simply done an amazing job spotting and developing talent - THAT is their great advantage over other teams.
 

Tripod

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From BriseBois’ press conference:

"I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm well aware that there's a narrative that our players have over the last few years, worked with the organization to come to terms on contracts that allow us to keep our players and keep our group going forward and allow us to have the best team possible on the ice. Brayden is the latest example of that and it all started with Steven Stamkos a few years back. By no means do we take that for granted, and we'd like to thank Brayden for working with us here and giving us the best chance of winning the Stanley Cup not only for this season, but for the coming years as well."
So Brisebrois GOT, what Shanahan ASKED for....
 

jfhabs

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Nowhere is there a 3 million per year difference due to taxes. Not on any contract in any city. According the the CapFriendly tax calculator (which is pretty much calculating a worst case tax scenario for the players) Stamkos would be taxed 1.3mil more this year in Toronto than he would be in Tampa. If Hedman were in Toronto the tax difference would be less than a million per year. And like I said that's a worst case scenario, when in reality these guys are putting money in retirement accounts and things that are taxed way less.

So when these guys are signing contracts at 2-3mil per year less than market, they absolutely are leaving money on the table, taxes or not.
There's no denying some Tampa players are taking a pay cut to win, but to say tax aren't a significant advantage is wrong. Simple math, if there's a 10% difference, that means low income taxes states/provinces can afford an extra star player at 8.5M.
 

J T Money

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There's no denying some Tampa players are taking a pay cut to win, but to say tax aren't a significant advantage is wrong. Simple math, if there's a 10% difference, that means low income taxes states/provinces can afford an extra star player at 8.5M.

Problem HFB posters are having is they think it’s simply 10% difference or whatever number it is. They don’t factor the 9.5% sales tax, insane property tax (Hedman is currently paying 76k per year), insane insurance on your property due to flood and hurricane risk, and many more ticky tack taxes and fees that occur in Hillsborough/Pinellas county.

Obviously many other cities / countries have taxes and fees etc, but it’s not as simple to claim there’s a massive advantage without exploring every facet of such things.

Using a Matthews as a comparable to Point (Marner was in a far different situation and shouldn’t be used). I doubt taxes explain the 5mil/yr difference in their contracts, despite Points being 2 years less (bridge contract vs whatever you want to call Matthews’).

There is clearly some other factors in play and it sure isn’t taxes...my guess is actually Vinik.
 

jfhabs

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Problem HFB posters are having is they think it’s simply 10% difference or whatever number it is. They don’t factor the 9.5% sales tax, insane property tax (Hedman is currently paying 76k per year), insane insurance on your property due to flood and hurricane risk, and many more ticky tack taxes and fees that occur in Hillsborough/Pinellas county.

Obviously many other cities / countries have taxes and fees etc, but it’s not as simple to claim there’s a massive advantage without exploring every facet of such things.

Using a Matthews as a comparable to Point (Marner was in a far different situation and shouldn’t be used). I doubt taxes explain the 5mil/yr difference in their contracts, despite Points being 2 years less (bridge contract vs whatever you want to call Matthews’).

There is clearly some other factors in play and it sure isn’t taxes...my guess is actually Vinik.
I understand what you're saying and like I said earlier, there's absolutely no denying Tampa players are taking a paycut. But, Toronto, Montreal, New York, Boston all have much higher taxes all across the board. I know Montreal has income taxes close to 46% for anything over 80k, then 15% sales tax. I don't think there should be a debate, there are some taxes advantages in some states/provinces. However it's hard to pin point exactly how much it ends up being. I feel like I was pretty conservative with my 10%. Truth is, Tampa as it all. They have the team, low taxes, nice weather, interested fan base (but not crazy coverage). Why wouldn't you want to stay there!&?
 
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CupsOverCash

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I understand what you're saying and like I said earlier, there's absolutely no denying Tampa players are taking a paycut. But, Toronto, Montreal, New York, Boston all have much higher taxes all across the board. I know Montreal has income taxes close to 46% for anything over 80k, then 15% sales tax. I don't think there should be a debate, there are some taxes advantages in some states/provinces. However it's hard to pin point exactly how much it ends up being. I feel like I was pretty conservative with my 10%. Truth is, Tampa as it all. They have the team, low taxes, nice weather, interested fan base (but not crazy coverage). Why wouldn't you want to stay there!&?

Boston signed their guys to cheaper deals than Toronto and a lot of places. What was their deal?
 

jfhabs

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Boston signed their guys to cheaper deals than Toronto and a lot of places. What was their deal?
Their players also took a discount and signed their deal years before. For exemple, Bergeron signed for 10,69% of the cap hit which would be equivalent to 8,712M on today's cap. Bergeron signed older and you can see the final years real salaries are lower from age 34 to 36. Bergeron signed his deal at 28, like most other Bruins player other then Pastarnak he was older then the new wave of stars who signed he the last year.

The more recent wave of RFAs are getting 2-5 years deal. They will all be in their prime for the total duration of the contract and will also get to UFA quicker.
The playfield totally changed within 2-3 years.
 

DFC

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Why go after UFAs when you have all the players you need.

We go after UFAs nearly every year. And they always end up signing elsewhere. I mean, we're really good at signing the Chris Kunitzes and Brenden Morrows of the world. But with this MASSIVE TAX ADVANTAGE... Shouldn't UFAs be giving us huge bargains to come play here? Why sign for market value elsewhere when you could sign in TB for 2m less, yet MAKE MORE!!!!

And yet all the other teams in a similar situation are signing UFAs at market value, rather than at huge discounts.
 
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jfhabs

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We go after UFAs nearly every year. And they always end up signing elsewhere. I mean, we're really good at signing the Chris Kunitzes and Brenden Morrows of the world. But with this MASSIVE TAX ADVANTAGE... Shouldn't UFAs be giving us huge bargains to come play here? Why sign for market value elsewhere when you could sign in TB for 2m less, yet MAKE MORE!!!!

And yet all the other teams in a similar situation are signing UFAs at market value, rather than at huge discounts.
You're right, but I'm sure they go at UFAs without ruining their great Cap structure. If they signed Tavares to 11M, I'm sure Kucherov would've asked the same 9 days after. I think it's a good approach too. They want UFAs, but not at any cost. Getting player like Hayes for 7.1M might help you for a few years, but I don't believe that's a healthy way to build a good team.
 
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Kimota

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We go after UFAs nearly every year. And they always end up signing elsewhere. I mean, we're really good at signing the Chris Kunitzes and Brenden Morrows of the world. But with this MASSIVE TAX ADVANTAGE... Shouldn't UFAs be giving us huge bargains to come play here? Why sign for market value elsewhere when you could sign in TB for 2m less, yet MAKE MORE!!!!

And yet all the other teams in a similar situation are signing UFAs at market value, rather than at huge discounts.

But it remains to be seen if your GM go hard on them or not. Tampa has had a tremendous group of forwards for many years. These are the kind of players that the other teams try desperately aquire through UFA. But Tampa already has them so it's a different situation. There's no rush to go get a highly skilled forward. I mean what would they really need? A defenseman, maybe? The UFAs for Ds have been few and far between in recent years. It's non-existant.
 

DFC

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But it remains to be seen if your GM go hard on them or not. Tampa has had a tremendous group of forwards for many years. These are the kind of players that the other teams try desperately aquire through UFA. But Tampa already has them so it's a different situation. There's no rush to go get a highly skilled forward. I mean what would they really need? A defenseman, maybe? The UFAs for Ds have been few and far between in recent years. It's non-existant.
Why should we have to go hard? We have a huge tax advantage. Why pay tavares 11 when we can pay him 8.5? Why aren't UFAs league-wide fighting to get contracts in TB, where they can take up less cap and get the same money? shouldn't shattenkirk have come two years ago when we were reportedly offering him 6-7m? That's like 170 bajillion in Toronto.
 

Kimota

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Why should we have to go hard? We have a huge tax advantage. Why pay tavares 11 when we can pay him 8.5? Why aren't UFAs league-wide fighting to get contracts in TB, where they can take up less cap and get the same money? shouldn't shattenkirk have come two years ago when we were reportedly offering him 6-7m? That's like 170 bajillion in Toronto.

It's NYC.
 

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