MLB: New PBA Proposal would Eliminate 25% of Minor League Baseball in 2021

KevFu

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MLB's issue with the structure (which hasn't changed in like 60 years) is things like... the New Orleans Zephyrs owners are free to move to Wichita to get a new stadium and now the Miami Marlins prospects are 1,000 miles further away.

The 30 Triple A franchises have affiliation licenses and are guaranteed a Triple A team, which creates an offseason "Musical Chairs"

Minnesota switched the affiliation from AAA Edmonton to Rochester, NY and that meant someone in the East had to sign on with a PCL team instead of an IL team. (The Mets, Marlins and Nationals have all had to put their AAA teams in Las Vegas, now Washington is in Fresno).

Washington can't say "We're going to put our AAA team in Richmond, VA instead of in California, because DUH, that's smart and having our guys 3 time zones and 3727 miles away is not." Because Fresno is guaranteed a AAA team and Richmond has a AA license.


I think MLB totally bungled this, but the idea that minor leagues' natural evolution/mutation into their current configuration doesn't need to be radically reorganized and streamlined is totally crazy. Forget the 42-team affiliation thing for a second. Ask yourself two questions:

1. Should there be a radical realignment of the minor leagues with smaller geographically intelligent leagues to reduce travel for the players?

2. Should there be some kind of geo-restriction to the affiliation options for those franchises so we don't end up with Washington and Cincinnati minor leaguers in Fresno and Billings Montana, and Colorado minor leaguers in Hartford Connecticut?

The answer to each is an obvious Yes
 

PCSPounder

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MLB's issue with the structure (which hasn't changed in like 60 years) is things like... the New Orleans Zephyrs owners are free to move to Wichita to get a new stadium and now the Miami Marlins prospects are 1,000 miles further away.

The 30 Triple A franchises have affiliation licenses and are guaranteed a Triple A team, which creates an offseason "Musical Chairs"

Minnesota switched the affiliation from AAA Edmonton to Rochester, NY and that meant someone in the East had to sign on with a PCL team instead of an IL team. (The Mets, Marlins and Nationals have all had to put their AAA teams in Las Vegas, now Washington is in Fresno).

Washington can't say "We're going to put our AAA team in Richmond, VA instead of in California, because DUH, that's smart and having our guys 3 time zones and 3727 miles away is not." Because Fresno is guaranteed a AAA team and Richmond has a AA license.


I think MLB totally bungled this, but the idea that minor leagues' natural evolution/mutation into their current configuration doesn't need to be radically reorganized and streamlined is totally crazy. Forget the 42-team affiliation thing for a second. Ask yourself two questions:

1. Should there be a radical realignment of the minor leagues with smaller geographically intelligent leagues to reduce travel for the players?

2. Should there be some kind of geo-restriction to the affiliation options for those franchises so we don't end up with Washington and Cincinnati minor leaguers in Fresno and Billings Montana, and Colorado minor leaguers in Hartford Connecticut?

The answer to each is an obvious Yes

Food for thought... do AAA owners want to limit their moving options and therefore $$$?

Really not.

That doesn't mean you're wrong about the need, in this case, for tighter geography. It's just that MiLB wants to make sure MLB pays for this "outrage," and I'd tend to think part of the shortfall could be made up simply by charging admission to the negotiations. MLB is, of course, as greedy as usual.

But I wouldn't constrain this argument to AAA. Some 27 years ago, the Pioneer League had teams in Canadian cities not far from the Montana core and two "outliers" in Idaho Falls and Salt Lake City. Someone ends up in Ogden after SLC goes AAA, someone else lands in Orem (which at least would make for a decent travel pair if they scheduled that way), and more recently the league took a big jump to end up in Grand Junction... and now Colorado Springs. I'm also thinking of (I think) the South Atlantic and their Ohio team and whomever else they're stuck with of late.

Thing is, some common sense is required. You talked about Louisiana not suddenly hating baseball, but you're missing two important factors. (1) Cities are wiser to the stadium grift- or the value of using public money for the stadiums, and (2) the eye test does not lie in far too many cases. The new stadium honeymoon has shrunk to maybe months instead of years... and it doesn't matter what sport. There's a backlash to the whole sports experience. The attendance numbers are nothing to go by. There's problems here.
 

KevFu

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The issue isn't who moves where and where they move to (MLB has no problem with owners moving franchises for nicer stadiums because MLB wants the minor league teams to have new nice stadiums).

It's that there's no checks and balances for having league structures that make sense. They've just mutated for decades....
 

PCSPounder

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The issue isn't who moves where and where they move to (MLB has no problem with owners moving franchises for nicer stadiums because MLB wants the minor league teams to have new nice stadiums).

It's that there's no checks and balances for having league structures that make sense. They've just mutated for decades....

For all of the belief that one party has the overarching ability to create sensible structures, I'm saying the "checks and balances" will cost some $$$, whether directly or indirectly. Therefore it'll be damn hard to implement and enforce. Therefore, don't be surprised when we get the same old same old.

Also... don't be surprised if MLB ends up not expanding.
 

GindyDraws

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But if it's about "new, nice stadiums", why is it, for example, they want to eliminate Erie; who play in a 20 year old ballpark getting extensive renovations but not Richmond who play in a crappy 40 odd year old ballpark in a city that won't replace either of its aging sporting venues?
 
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garnetpalmetto

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The issue isn't who moves where and where they move to (MLB has no problem with owners moving franchises for nicer stadiums because MLB wants the minor league teams to have new nice stadiums).

It's that there's no checks and balances for having league structures that make sense. They've just mutated for decades....

I mean there are, though. Namely the travel restrictions - the current rules state that if a team has to travel a certain distance by bus (I think 500 miles or more), they have to have a rest day upon arrival. That tends to play havoc with scheduling so it encourages smaller geographic footprints in the bus leagues. That's precisely one of the reasons (and I keep using it because it's local) that the Carolina Mudcats moved from Double-A to High-A.
 

KevFu

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Sorry, I started writing and then had something come up, so my articulation was terrible.

Of course MLB wants to have the minor league teams be given new stadiums every 20 years by different cities, moving around for the best deal. And each MLB team wants to have free reign to pick a new affiliate when their old PDL expires.

But there is nothing that says "the 16 furthest west franchises have to be in the 16-team PCL" so the 14 eastern are in the IL" Of course, having a 16-14 split is stupid anyway (The leagues should be 8 teams or 6).

There's nothing in place to re-assess who's in what league and if that makes sense. It has just evolved for six decades unchecked.


I haven't seen their full plan, but there's A LOT of things I've heard which I find very stupid, and there are very valid points on "both sides." But I think the mistake is saying "Both sides."

It isn't "Leave the Minors Alone!" because that's really dumb. There's so many things about the structure that make zero sense.

But this is MLB, when there are plans of theirs leaked, the things they say they made the plan for simply don't line up (Like their radical realignment plan didn't achieve any of its stated goals, and it's biggest positives have been debunked).
 

KevFu

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I mean there are, though. Namely the travel restrictions - the current rules state that if a team has to travel a certain distance by bus (I think 500 miles or more), they have to have a rest day upon arrival. That tends to play havoc with scheduling so it encourages smaller geographic footprints in the bus leagues. That's precisely one of the reasons (and I keep using it because it's local) that the Carolina Mudcats moved from Double-A to High-A.

That day off thing is more scheduling than any type of configuration restrictions.
 

garnetpalmetto

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That day off thing is more scheduling than any type of configuration restrictions.

Right, but the scheduling affects the configuration. Again, look at Carolina. At the time they were in the SL, here was the distance table each market (using Google Maps from stadium to stadium)

BirminghamChattanoogaJacksonvilleMississippiMobileMontgomeryTennesseeWest Tenn
Carolina591 miles499 miles462 miles820 miles769 miles599 miles368 miles690 miles
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If there's only 2, maybe 3 places you can start a road swing without having to throw in a rest day, it make scheduling tough - to the extent that the Mudcats former owner specifically stated that MLB's insistence on following the 500 mile rule and reducing the number of waivers granted was the main contributing factor to his decision to step down from the Southern League to the Carolina League, lest he have to start flying the team on road trips:

The issues were financial, as the Mudcats have to travel to such faraway spots as Mobile, Ala., and Pearl, Miss., for road games. And the Southern League was making noises about requiring the Mudcats, the Northeasternmost club in the league, to fly the team to road games over 500 miles away. Only three Southern League teams — the (Sevierville) Tennessee Smokies, the Chattanooga Lookouts and the Jacksonville Suns — were within a 500-mile radius of Five County Stadium.
(source: Mudcats head for Class A Carolina League for 2012 season)

So in this case the 500 mile rule led to a far-flung team having to exit the League and be replaced by a more geographically appropriate market.
 

KevFu

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But if it's about "new, nice stadiums", why is it, for example, they want to eliminate Erie; who play in a 20 year old ballpark getting extensive renovations but not Richmond who play in a crappy 40 odd year old ballpark in a city that won't replace either of its aging sporting venues?

I'd assume the reason for that would be:
A. Teams nearby or lack there of.
B. The owner of the SeaWolves is a minority owner of the Reds (aka "one of them"), making for one less fight?

Just spitballing.

I think people are confusing my eagerness for MiLB realignment/progress as an endorsement of the MLB plan (the details of which have not been fully revealed).

I think the minors could be much more efficient and better aligned (MLB too), and also think the number of Minor League teams is more than MLB needs, as most teams are coming around to thinking.
Hockey basically has one level of the minors, AHL. ECHL has SOME NHL property players and of course, juniors. So if you want to say "Two" that's fine with me. Basketball has one. Soccer basically has none but loans, so say one. Football has none.
You can add +1 across the board if you want to call college sports a development league, but baseball has that, too.

46% of players drafted from 1965-2011 never made it as high as Double A.
Peaked at Rookie: 14.4%
Peaked at Low A: 13.9%
Peaked at High A: 17.7%
Peaked at AA: 13.5%
Peaked at AAA: 12.7%
Played in MLB: 11.2%

The arguments for wanting to shrink/realign the minors ARE there. I don't really "agree" with a lot of what I know of the plan, because it sounds pretty dumb, and I'm more than willing to critique what I do know about the plan and why it's another "MLB proposal that doesn't do what it says it does" but radical change for the minors IS necessary.
 

Centrum Hockey

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I'd assume the reason for that would be:
A. Teams nearby or lack there of.
B. The owner of the SeaWolves is a minority owner of the Reds (aka "one of them"), making for one less fight?

Just spitballing.

I think people are confusing my eagerness for MiLB realignment/progress as an endorsement of the MLB plan (the details of which have not been fully revealed).

I think the minors could be much more efficient and better aligned (MLB too), and also think the number of Minor League teams is more than MLB needs, as most teams are coming around to thinking.
Hockey basically has one level of the minors, AHL. ECHL has SOME NHL property players and of course, juniors. So if you want to say "Two" that's fine with me. Basketball has one. Soccer basically has none but loans, so say one. Football has none.
You can add +1 across the board if you want to call college sports a development league, but baseball has that, too.

46% of players drafted from 1965-2011 never made it as high as Double A.
Peaked at Rookie: 14.4%
Peaked at Low A: 13.9%
Peaked at High A: 17.7%
Peaked at AA: 13.5%
Peaked at AAA: 12.7%
Played in MLB: 11.2%

The arguments for wanting to shrink/realign the minors ARE there. I don't really "agree" with a lot of what I know of the plan, because it sounds pretty dumb, and I'm more than willing to critique what I do know about the plan and why it's another "MLB proposal that doesn't do what it says it does" but radical change for the minors IS necessary.
The NHL only really puts money into the ahl, the echl is on their own for the most part which is why multiple teams have folded outright. The people praising The NHL for its stable farm system and criticizing Manfred forgot about what happened to the markets the ahl left like Manchester NH and the Quad City's.
 
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KevFu

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Right, the NHL teams have an AHL affiliate to put their prospects in, and for the most part, ECHL is used only to make sure the minor league goalies in your system get to play.

But MLB has AAA, AA, A+, A, Rookie and Complex ball minor league levels. That's six times as many minor league levels. The idea that Trimming To Four is a calamity is silly.
 

PCSPounder

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Contraction by invitation.

MLB uses the nuclear option.

I'm calling this a 75% idle threat. Negotiating. Both sides know it.

The real threat would be to get with the rest of the world. Japan doesn't have a minor league system; they have reserve teams in the same manner as most of the world's football clubs. Basically one team of reserves and a youth program. (Arguably, the Rookie and Short Season leagues are the current "youth program" for MLB, but most of the world goes much younger than this.)
 

Centrum Hockey

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I'm calling this a 75% idle threat. Negotiating. Both sides know it.

The real threat would be to get with the rest of the world. Japan doesn't have a minor league system; they have reserve teams in the same manner as most of the world's football clubs. Basically one team of reserves and a youth program. (Arguably, the Rookie and Short Season leagues are the current "youth program" for MLB, but most of the world goes much younger than this.)
If the MLB does not reach an agreement with milb before 2021 you will probably see something like japan with the owned triple a teams for example Braves MLB and the reserve team will be in gwinnett.
 

KevFu

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Nah, the "nuclear option" isn't "not using the minor league teams" or ignoring all the teams that aren't owned by MLB owners.

Think of it like a flow chart...
MLB (league office) ---> 30 member teams below them.
MiLB (league office) --> 20 Leagues (league offices) ---> member teams.

Blowing it up would simply cut the MiLB league office and the 20 League offices out, and MLB would deal with teams directly. Each MLB team would be free to contact ANY club and say "We want a Player Development License with you to put our (AAA, AA, A+, A, Rookie) players in."

If they did that, they'd almost CERTAINLY coordinate so that the MLB teams only reached out to teams according the plan they want to impose.
So someone would reach out to the Independent St. Paul Saints and say "We want you to be our AAA team" and then once everyone had their teams, they'd organize into leagues and create a schedule. And the 42 teams on the "cut list" would never get phone calls because their facilities are bad.

It would make all the minor league teams (160 currently affiliated and all the independents) total free agents for PDLs. It's basically like union busting: MiLB is essentially "the union" for all the 160 teams.

That strategy wouldn't would with a MLB vs MLBPA impasse, because the MLBPA is too strong as the world's best players. But minor league franchises are totally replaceable and everyone knows it.
 

Centrum Hockey

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Nah, the "nuclear option" isn't "not using the minor league teams" or ignoring all the teams that aren't owned by MLB owners.

Think of it like a flow chart...
MLB (league office) ---> 30 member teams below them.
MiLB (league office) --> 20 Leagues (league offices) ---> member teams.

Blowing it up would simply cut the MiLB league office and the 20 League offices out, and MLB would deal with teams directly. Each MLB team would be free to contact ANY club and say "We want a Player Development License with you to put our (AAA, AA, A+, A, Rookie) players in."

If they did that, they'd almost CERTAINLY coordinate so that the MLB teams only reached out to teams according the plan they want to impose.
So someone would reach out to the Independent St. Paul Saints and say "We want you to be our AAA team" and then once everyone had their teams, they'd organize into leagues and create a schedule. And the 42 teams on the "cut list" would never get phone calls because their facilities are bad.

It would make all the minor league teams (160 currently affiliated and all the independents) total free agents for PDLs. It's basically like union busting: MiLB is essentially "the union" for all the 160 teams.

That strategy wouldn't would with a MLB vs MLBPA impasse, because the MLBPA is too strong as the world's best players. But minor league franchises are totally replaceable and everyone knows it.
Why Baseball's Antitrust Exemption Isn't A Strong Negotiating Tool For MiLB
Letters From MiLB And MLB’s Dan Halem Dig Into War Of Removing Affiliations Of Some Minor League Teams
milb really does not seem to have a lot of power to keep the status quo which seems like there preferred option.
 

PCSPounder

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That article arrived on the heels of MLB issuing another "they're not negotiating with us" comment with more back and forth following.

Interesting thing in that kerfluffle... MiLB acknowledged that MLB can pretty much do what they want with the Appalachian League, since all those teams are owned by their MLB clubs. Axing those teams was the main plan 15-20 years ago. I do wonder if all this leads to that.
 

LadyStanley

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Paywall. House resolution has 69+ sponsors from both sides of the aisle. More than 100 legislators have signed letter to MLB against eliminating 42 teams. But....

A key driving factor behind the proposed realignment is the growing use of sports science by major league teams, which potentially promises a cheaper way of improving players (or weeding them out) than paying minor league players’ salaries on as many minor league teams as there are now.

Cheaper is what owners want. But sometimes with political backlash ala Amazon or Walmart. One source believes cutting teams will turn fans away from baseball, while attendance fall around the country.
 

David Dennison

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Paywall. House resolution has 69+ sponsors from both sides of the aisle. More than 100 legislators have signed letter to MLB against eliminating 42 teams. But....



Cheaper is what owners want. But sometimes with political backlash ala Amazon or Walmart. One source believes cutting teams will turn fans away from baseball, while attendance fall around the country.

I don't like how the MLB is handling this, these teams are making more money than ever (and even cheaping out at the major league level, BoSox I'm looking at you), but will shutter the doors with the first whisper of paying minor Leaguers a decent wage. The municipalities that publicly funded these minor league stadiums will be the big losers, and honestly that should be an important point if the government steps in.

But what's the solution that the federal government has? Requiring x amount of minor league affiliates?
 

LadyStanley

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Paywall


I can see a number of lower level teams going bankrupt as a result of the delay/cancellation of baseball season.
 

Centrum Hockey

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Paywall


I can see a number of lower level teams going bankrupt as a result of the delay/cancellation of baseball season.


The MLB plan is going to be pretty easy to implement now.
The current player development contract's are still guaranteed until 2021. There is no incentive for any MILB owner to declare bankruptcy until they know what the next deal is. If 160 player development contract's are still guaranteed in the next deal they can sell the franchise licence to another city.
 
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