MLB: New PBA Proposal would Eliminate 25% of Minor League Baseball in 2021
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Centrum Hockey
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Baseball America: Inside MLBs Proposal To Dramatically Change Minor League Baseball on Apple Podcasts
a podcast from the person who wrote the article.
KevFu
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It's about time to re-organize.
They want to pay players more, and they want facilities to improve. And they want to do it without additional spending. Easiest thing to cut is travel costs. Tacoma and Memphis are in the same league, that's dumb. Just make more, smaller leagues, reorganize to something that makes sense logistically and there's more money to get stuff done.
They want to pay players more, and they want facilities to improve. And they want to do it without additional spending. Easiest thing to cut is travel costs. Tacoma and Memphis are in the same league, that's dumb. Just make more, smaller leagues, reorganize to something that makes sense logistically and there's more money to get stuff done.
AdmiralsFan24
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Boeser Fan
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- Jun 23, 2018
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Yes they do the fact that the low minor players without a signing bonus make less than minimum wage is out too lunch and shouldn't be allowed.
AdmiralsFan24
Registered User
No, they don't. The only reason it's even on the table is because it's been brought to the attention of everyone. If the average fan didn't know that minor leaguers were making below minimum wage do you think the owners would have any desire to pay them more?
Hell, MLB managed to sneak an amendment into a congressional bill to continue the allowance of paying minor leaguers under minimum wage.
Congress' 'Save America's Pastime Act' would allow teams to pay minor-leaguers less than minimum wage
KevFu
Registered User
They don't WANT TO, but they know they need to and are going to to avoid litigation. Better?
This is an interesting development. The thing with baseball, unlike some of the other sports, is the fact there are far more levels to development. Hockey, basketball, you dominate at a pro level, you're pretty much ready for the big show. Not saying it will translate, but you don't learn any more staying down. Baseball, on the other hand, with the varying levels of pitchers, and hitting being the hardest thing to do in sports, needs work at the different levels.
I had a nephew go through the draft process. He had the misfortune of being in the draft the first year the signing bonus restrictions came in. He wasn't a huge prospect, but he was offered the $100k to sign. But in researching the options(he was pretty solid on going to school before the draft, and that's what he ultimately did), my BIL found the crux of life in the minor leagues: there are two types of players. 1)Those the team sees getting to the majors and helping the big club, and 2)guys who are there so the players in category 1 have people to play against as they learn their craft. When it became obvious that he wasn't really going to be considered a group 1 guy, the decision, at the money being offered was a pretty easy one.
But knowing this, if they chop the number of teams, how will that impact development? You don't want a guy who would have gotten reps in A lose his confidence because he had to straight to AA before he was ready, and end up burning out, but if there are far fewer teams.... how else does this work?
I had a nephew go through the draft process. He had the misfortune of being in the draft the first year the signing bonus restrictions came in. He wasn't a huge prospect, but he was offered the $100k to sign. But in researching the options(he was pretty solid on going to school before the draft, and that's what he ultimately did), my BIL found the crux of life in the minor leagues: there are two types of players. 1)Those the team sees getting to the majors and helping the big club, and 2)guys who are there so the players in category 1 have people to play against as they learn their craft. When it became obvious that he wasn't really going to be considered a group 1 guy, the decision, at the money being offered was a pretty easy one.
But knowing this, if they chop the number of teams, how will that impact development? You don't want a guy who would have gotten reps in A lose his confidence because he had to straight to AA before he was ready, and end up burning out, but if there are far fewer teams.... how else does this work?
David Dennison
I'm a tariff, man.
Completely wrong. They wrote the law two years ago explicitly to protect their right to pay below minimum wage.
Independent leagues exist. It will probably piss off some smaller cities (or often small suburban/exurban municipalities) that doled out subsidies for single use stadiums. But teams do move around in those leagues a fair amount, too.
Influx of foreign players impacting the number of draft picks. They took 'er jobs?
KevFu
Registered User
You guys love arguing the argument and not the topic. WHO CARES WHY THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO PAY MILB PLAYERS MORE, THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO.
This is about a) if we're going to have to spend more for player compensation we need to cut costs and b) have control over facility standards.
This is about a) if we're going to have to spend more for player compensation we need to cut costs and b) have control over facility standards.
KevFu
Registered User
I think ultimately, there will be less opportunity for that "Group 2" you describe. I was a college SID for a long time, and I had one guy in particular that was taken in the draft out of high school and choose to go to college (and it was the right call for him, he was a naive kid who needed to grow up). But he played at really nice college facilities in the Pac-12, WCC and Big West. And we played San Jose State, who splits time between their on campus field and the San Jose Giants minor league park. And he said "I'm glad I came to college and can practice at my nice WCC facility instead of coming to work every day at this POS professional park." Then he got drafted by the Giants and was assigned to San Jose and got to go to work at the POS SJ Giants stadium.
The San Jose Giants stadium was built in 1942 for $80,000. That's LESS than $1.4 million in today's money.
Santa Clara has a college stadium that costs $8.6 million ($11.4 million in today's money). A good scoreboard costs more than the San Jose Giants stadium.
LadyStanley
Registered User
KevFu
Registered User
PCSPounder
Stadium Groupie
Some years ago, there was a proposal to end the Appalachian League and merge the Pioneer League with the Northwest League under the "Short A" classification. Obviously, that never happened. People can propose pretty much anything, but that doesn't mean it'll get through the weeds and see the light of day.
I could argue that this proposal is another timely attempt to thwart the unionization of minor league players. There might be legislation allowing sub-minimum wage, but that doesn't mean baseball can get away with murder while soccer teams are proliferating and basketball is threatening minor league expansion and the slight potential exists to expand independent pro baseball due to the anti-trust-exempted gorilla acting ham-handed like it often does. Maybe even hockey will get its act together. Maybe the Mexican pro league will hit some big bucks someday. OK, rant over... need to breathe.
Sigh.
Really... don't get hyped up about this. It might happen, but negotiation (which is what this takes) never comes out quite the way you expect, and it is SO hard to make fundamental changes to large industries and even sports organizations. Accidents can happen, but it's not the way to bet.
I could argue that this proposal is another timely attempt to thwart the unionization of minor league players. There might be legislation allowing sub-minimum wage, but that doesn't mean baseball can get away with murder while soccer teams are proliferating and basketball is threatening minor league expansion and the slight potential exists to expand independent pro baseball due to the anti-trust-exempted gorilla acting ham-handed like it often does. Maybe even hockey will get its act together. Maybe the Mexican pro league will hit some big bucks someday. OK, rant over... need to breathe.
Sigh.
Really... don't get hyped up about this. It might happen, but negotiation (which is what this takes) never comes out quite the way you expect, and it is SO hard to make fundamental changes to large industries and even sports organizations. Accidents can happen, but it's not the way to bet.
KevFu
Registered User
NY Times leaked the 42 teams on the chopping block per the proposal. Mostly App/Pioneer/NYP teams, with some others with terrible facilities mixed in.
KevFu
Registered User
I think the most misunderstood aspect of this is that these teams would be "eliminated"
There are 358 "minor league" teams right now:
160 are "Affiliated" with an MLB team, developing their prospects.
198 are "unaffiliated" with players just competing for a tiny paycheck and the chance to show an MLB organization that they have skills.
The MLB plan to reorganize would have:
120 "Affiliated" with an MLB team,
238 “Unaffiliated”
You can make the case that Unaffiliated means those towns are wasting less money making MLB teams happy than before, allowing them to focus more on fan experience than MLB-mandated facility improvements.
There are 358 "minor league" teams right now:
160 are "Affiliated" with an MLB team, developing their prospects.
198 are "unaffiliated" with players just competing for a tiny paycheck and the chance to show an MLB organization that they have skills.
The MLB plan to reorganize would have:
120 "Affiliated" with an MLB team,
238 “Unaffiliated”
You can make the case that Unaffiliated means those towns are wasting less money making MLB teams happy than before, allowing them to focus more on fan experience than MLB-mandated facility improvements.
cutchemist42
Registered User
My former city had a team that was an unaffiliated that was a fun time. Would have gone more if I didnt hate the owner who was our shady scuzzy mayor.
Most people couldnt tell the difference anyway.
LadyStanley
Registered User
The Minor League Teams That Could Lose M.L.B. Ties
(May require creation of free account to read)
For those who want to read the full list
I had a huge explanation typed up, and then lost it. Damn it.
Essentially, what this proposal would do is eliminate the domestic short season leagues: the Appalachian, Pioneer, Northwest, and New York-Penn Leagues. Officially, the Appy and Pioneer Leagues are Rookie level, while the Northwest and NY-Penn are Class-A Short Season, but in practice there's no difference. These leagues start their seasons in mid-June so that newly drafted rookies and second year players who weren't ready for a full season (and got stuck in extended spring training) can start playing meaningful games right away. Unlike full-season leagues, there is no one-and-only-one requirement here, and subsequently some teams have two affiliates (though none have two in the same league), resulting in 40 teams across the 4 leagues. (For reference, there are 120 full season affiliates, 30 at each of AAA, AA, High-A, and Low-A. That's where the "160 minor league teams" number seen in stories comes from, the sum of short season teams and full season teams. )
Draftees that aren't ready for competitive ball go to the parent club's spring training complex and play in what are essentially summer instructional leagues. While those "complex leagues" do keep records, they don't charge admission, are usually played on side fields, and are only seen by scouts and family members. Some teams also have multiple squads if they have enough players, meaning that there's some 40 teams at this level – the number actually varies year-to-year, as teams decide whether to field one squad or two somewhat ad hoc. (Add in the academy teams in the Dominican Republic for young guys from Latin America, which every club has at least one and many have multiple, and the total number of affiliated teams is actually around 240, though only the 160 teams that charge admission really play competitive baseball.)
The proposal would move the draft to August from early June, and cut the length in half. Without the time or the players to staff them, the short season leagues would go away. That they're usually played in tiny, often rundown ballparks in small towns is part of the reasons given as well. Draftees would essentially do little more that scouting exercises for a few weeks and not playbill actual competitive games until the following season.
Beyond that, there's also some reorganization proposed to reduce travel, reduce distances between MLB clubs and their affiliates, and do away with some of the poorest ballparks at higher levels by replacing them with teams from the short season leagues that do have good ballparks. Strangely enough, the plan calls for taking over two independent league teams (St Paul Saints and Sugar Land Skeeters), despite the fact that they have zero power over them.
It will be interesting to see how much of the proposal survives intact. Supposedly the MLB side had a very "take it or leave it" attitude in the initial discussions. But the backlash has been swift. There was letter signed by over a hundred members of congress criticizing the plan. No one really wants to lose their local team, and 42 teams is a lot to drop.
That said, I can see the independent leagues jumping into some of the abandoned markets. Despite the erroneous info above, there is nowhere near that many independent league teams. There's actually only 62 in 7 leagues, and the quality and format varies hugely depending on the league, with an informal hierarchy that's widely recognized among players and scouts. The nicest independent league ballparks are better than many of the affiliated ones, and the quality of play in the top leagues approaches AAA levels. One can see why affiliated ball might want to poach some of those.
Essentially, what this proposal would do is eliminate the domestic short season leagues: the Appalachian, Pioneer, Northwest, and New York-Penn Leagues. Officially, the Appy and Pioneer Leagues are Rookie level, while the Northwest and NY-Penn are Class-A Short Season, but in practice there's no difference. These leagues start their seasons in mid-June so that newly drafted rookies and second year players who weren't ready for a full season (and got stuck in extended spring training) can start playing meaningful games right away. Unlike full-season leagues, there is no one-and-only-one requirement here, and subsequently some teams have two affiliates (though none have two in the same league), resulting in 40 teams across the 4 leagues. (For reference, there are 120 full season affiliates, 30 at each of AAA, AA, High-A, and Low-A. That's where the "160 minor league teams" number seen in stories comes from, the sum of short season teams and full season teams. )
Draftees that aren't ready for competitive ball go to the parent club's spring training complex and play in what are essentially summer instructional leagues. While those "complex leagues" do keep records, they don't charge admission, are usually played on side fields, and are only seen by scouts and family members. Some teams also have multiple squads if they have enough players, meaning that there's some 40 teams at this level – the number actually varies year-to-year, as teams decide whether to field one squad or two somewhat ad hoc. (Add in the academy teams in the Dominican Republic for young guys from Latin America, which every club has at least one and many have multiple, and the total number of affiliated teams is actually around 240, though only the 160 teams that charge admission really play competitive baseball.)
The proposal would move the draft to August from early June, and cut the length in half. Without the time or the players to staff them, the short season leagues would go away. That they're usually played in tiny, often rundown ballparks in small towns is part of the reasons given as well. Draftees would essentially do little more that scouting exercises for a few weeks and not playbill actual competitive games until the following season.
Beyond that, there's also some reorganization proposed to reduce travel, reduce distances between MLB clubs and their affiliates, and do away with some of the poorest ballparks at higher levels by replacing them with teams from the short season leagues that do have good ballparks. Strangely enough, the plan calls for taking over two independent league teams (St Paul Saints and Sugar Land Skeeters), despite the fact that they have zero power over them.
It will be interesting to see how much of the proposal survives intact. Supposedly the MLB side had a very "take it or leave it" attitude in the initial discussions. But the backlash has been swift. There was letter signed by over a hundred members of congress criticizing the plan. No one really wants to lose their local team, and 42 teams is a lot to drop.
That said, I can see the independent leagues jumping into some of the abandoned markets. Despite the erroneous info above, there is nowhere near that many independent league teams. There's actually only 62 in 7 leagues, and the quality and format varies hugely depending on the league, with an informal hierarchy that's widely recognized among players and scouts. The nicest independent league ballparks are better than many of the affiliated ones, and the quality of play in the top leagues approaches AAA levels. One can see why affiliated ball might want to poach some of those.
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The Yankees have said they will fight for Staten Island - the Red Sox haven't said a word about Lowell.
When I was living just north of Chicago I went to a few games in Kenosha and the owner was a real nice guy.
I am becoming more convinced that Rob Manfred does NOT love the game of baseball.
When I was living just north of Chicago I went to a few games in Kenosha and the owner was a real nice guy.
I am becoming more convinced that Rob Manfred does NOT love the game of baseball.
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Centrum Hockey
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There are some teams that don't really seem to get the hint that there parent team wants them gone. Binghamton for example the mets have all but come out and said they would rather have Brooklyn at that level.
The Mets OWN the Brooklyn franchise
Centrum Hockey
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They did own bingo at one point i believe. The wilpons have said nothing publicly.
Owner Hughes, politicians slam proposal that could end pro baseball in Binghamton
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That's been one of the criticisms of the proposal: that the list of surviving teams seems to favor parent-club owned teams at the expense of independently owned affiliates.
Binghamton's ballpark is a dump. Though they're working on getting it renovated, supposedly.
I think the Mets also hate the "Rumble Ponies" name. (Actually, I don't think anyone likes that terrible name.) But that's less of an issue.
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