Mizral's Organizational Rankings (#1 through #10)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
Mizral said:
The Messenger,

For someone who proclaims he sees every prospect that ever played, you'd think you know that most young goaltenders take much, much longer than skaters to break into the NHL.

Also, if you've read any reports of the Caps training camps, you'd know that Caps management wants to keep him in the AHL as to groom him as a starter and have him play lots of games, rather than perhaps blow away his confidence as a backup playing behind Olaf Kolzig.

To say Ouelette is close to 'bust' status is absolutely inept. Marty Turco wasn't a starter in the NHL 'till he was 27 for christs sakes.

EDIT: MacIssac brings up a good point. It might be a concern if he was falling on his face in the AHL. But his stats in the American league are very impressive.

I never said that he was a bust ....but he has not proved anything at the NHL level yet... and only a fortune teller can tells us how he can turn out.. He could never make the jump, get injured or get traded to a deep team.. Fleury is proving it , Oulette my point has not PROVED anything yet, and while talented still needs to prove it.... His team not wanting to ruin his confidence is not a strong aurgument...If he was so talented on par to Fleury he would now be in the NHL, even if it was for just a game or two like they have with his Teammate Rastislav Stana (G)..yet he has never played in a NHL game with Washington EVER in his 3 years in the organization..

Just like your Turco example he did not make it until he was 27 and until then he still needed to prove it, and for every Turco there numerous others that went the other way, So are you 100% sure Qulette is a guaranteed success in the NHL until he proves it..

Tell me this would Pitts traded Fleury straight up for him, Would Florida trade Luongo, would the Isles trade Rick DiPietro (G), David Aebischer etc.. I would find it hard to believe that Buffalo would trade Ryan Miller also a AHL farmhand for him straight up or NYR Dan Blackburn ??.... So that is my point I am making he is a star goalie in the making by your accounts yet other teams would not trade their goalie NHL goalie for him..

So what are you grading him against???
 

Kevin Forbes

Registered User
Jul 29, 2002
9,199
10
Nova Scotia
www.kforbesy.ca
The Messenger said:
Lets talk about Oulette for a moment... He has been a career minor leaguer playing a total of 2 NHL games 3 years ago... It not like he is in a DEEP organization where even though Washington is in the bottom of the standings all the while Kolzig struggles among trade rumours passed on the depth chart by not only Sebastien Charpentier (G), but his Portland teammate Rastislav Stana (G) has played NHL games ahead of Him... Philly traded him as a throw in with a ton of picks just for a Playoff rental 39 year old rent-a-player in Adam Oates...

Oulette now 22 going on 23 having spent parts of 4 years in the NHL ,and although many will say that it takes young goalies longer, players like 19 year old MA Fleury and others are already regular NHL players... If he would be a skater playing 4 years in the AHL with hardly a sniff at the NHL people would start wondering if he is ever going to make it..

There is a Fine line between STAR PROSPECT and BUST and Oulette while talented might be getting dangerously close to the Later.. maybe he is headed the way of other top drafted goalies that where drafted 1st rounders, high and now are considered lesser prospects, like Brian Finley 1999, Patrick DesRochers 1998, Mathieu Chouinard 1998,Brent Krahn 2000 etc...many who where considered FUTURE STARS as well..

But for your analysis you are using him as a trump card against other top prospects..

The same argument could be thrown back in your face in regards to Ilya Bryzgalov
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
forbesy said:
The same argument could be thrown back in your face in regards to Ilya Bryzgalov

Right see my post above ...

Yet if you want to compare Apples to Apples

Look at both stats in the Same League the AHL

Ilya Bryzgalov (G)

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=51169

Maxime Ouellet (G)

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=35723

Bryzgalov leads Ouellet in just about every goalie stat .. GA,Saves, Shutouts, Goals Against Average, Wins etc..

So Why is Ouellet the next league Superstar the propells his team to #1 in the rankings yet Bryzgalov can post better stats and not even get his team into the top 10 according to Mizral list?????

Same question as above.. What are you comparing these players to??..

Now look at

Ryan Miller (G)

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=45065

or look at the Whole AHL as a whole..

http://www.theahl.com/AHLStatistics0304/goaltendingleaders.html

Its not like Ouelette is tearing the league up, he's not even dominating in the AHL never mind the NHL..

He is tied 20th in wins and ranked 22nd by stats in the rankings, where Bryzgalov is 4th...
 
Last edited:

Seachd

Registered User
Mar 16, 2002
24,937
8,946
I don't know if I agree with having Washington at number one, but I know for sure I would take Eminger and Semin over any Anaheim prospect. Gordon doesn't impress me much, but in my opinion those two will be better than any of Getzlaf, Perry, or Brent.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
Seachd said:
I don't know if I agree with having Washington at number one, but I know for sure I would take Eminger and Semin over any Anaheim prospect. Gordon doesn't impress me much, but in my opinion those two will be better than any of Getzlaf, Perry, or Brent.

Eminger no doubt is special...but I would take Lupul or Semin...

and you would take Getzlaf, Perry, or Brent over any other Caps not mentioned above..
 

st_roland

Guest
Habs4ever said:
Eminger = Hainsey
Kostitsyn > Semin
Perezhogin > Gordon
Higgins > Johansson
Komisarek > Fehr
Plekanec < Brian Suthurby
I'm not saying Washington is bad but Montreal has just as good prospect depth chart, now if you want to root for washington then go ahead I won't stop you.


Only Ouelette is someone not comparable now but we might already have him in Halak.


How do you judge Kostitsyn to be better than Semin. I thought he wasn't playing in the RSL, but the next level down? I don't really know. I'm a WSH fan, so I don't suppose to judge which stable is better, but I would have to think Semin is at least equal to Kostitsyn. He has 8 points in 18 games and is even on a pretty crappy caps team.
 

elphy101

Registered User
Nov 8, 2002
1,568
0
City of Champions
Visit site
Seachd said:
I don't know if I agree with having Washington at number one, but I know for sure I would take Eminger and Semin over any Anaheim prospect. Gordon doesn't impress me much, but in my opinion those two will be better than any of Getzlaf, Perry, or Brent.

I would take Eminger first but that might be my bias towards defensemen. Lupul and Chistov are studs.

I think Lupul+Chistov=Eminger+Semin.

Those are 4 quality potential franchise players. After that that I think Anaheim wins depth wise. I feel Ouelette is way too overrated. Let's wait and see if he succeeds in the NHL.


Overall though. Good job Mizral. It's a good read and I agree with most of the rankings. I think the biggest difference is you really like Ouelette. In a few years, we'll get to see if you right. Thanks for taking the time to do it though.
 

Hossa

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
9,649
274
Abroad
Visit site
The Messenger said:
I never said that he was a bust ....but he has not proved anything at the NHL level yet... and only a fortune teller can tells us how he can turn out.. He could never make the jump, get injured or get traded to a deep team.. Fleury is proving it , Oulette my point has not PROVED anything yet, and while talented still needs to prove it.... His team not wanting to ruin his confidence is not a strong aurgument...If he was so talented on par to Fleury he would now be in the NHL, even if it was for just a game or two like they have with his Teammate Rastislav Stana (G)..yet he has never played in a NHL game with Washington EVER in his 3 years in the organization..

Just like your Turco example he did not make it until he was 27 and until then he still needed to prove it, and for every Turco there numerous others that went the other way, So are you 100% sure Qulette is a guaranteed success in the NHL until he proves it..

Tell me this would Pitts traded Fleury straight up for him, Would Florida trade Luongo, would the Isles trade Rick DiPietro (G), David Aebischer etc.. I would find it hard to believe that Buffalo would trade Ryan Miller also a AHL farmhand for him straight up or NYR Dan Blackburn ??.... So that is my point I am making he is a star goalie in the making by your accounts yet other teams would not trade their goalie NHL goalie for him..

So what are you grading him against???

I have both Oullette and Bryzgalov in a long-term fantasy hockey league. Oullette is a superior prospect. According to Caps fans, the reason Stana is in the NHL and not Oullette is financial. Oullette could earn about three times as much as Stana in the NHL, and they aren't going to call up Oullette until they know he can be the starter or at least play half of the time. I don't agree with it, but that's a large part of the reasoning. It's not that Stana has surpassed him, but more that it makes more sense developmentally and financially, for him to stay in the AHL right now.
 

elphy101

Registered User
Nov 8, 2002
1,568
0
City of Champions
Visit site
Mizral said:
Elphy,

Chistov isn't a prospect! If he was, you can be assured, the Ducks would be up a ranking or 5.

Okay, my mistake. I was thinking that both Chistov and Eminger had played most of last year in the NHL. For some reason I forgot that Eminger didn't. I guess going by that, the ducks do fall quite a bit farther.
 

Volchenkov

Registered User
Feb 1, 2003
2,940
0
elibenporat.blogspot.com
Plekanec said:
I will come back with this comment about Hossa... You will swallow your own words!

Hossa has great second line winger written all over him.... His lack of points production does'nt reflect really what he was doing on the ice... He was creating several nice scoring chances in his few last games, involved in the game, great along the board and puck protection, great speed, nice work ethic..... Hossa is definitively NHL caliber and we will see him back soon! Dagenais wont last longer with us, Hossa is an alot better hockey player in every area except for the shot!

players who have "great first liner" written all over them are lucky if they become average 2nd liners. PLayers with "great second liner" written all over them are lucky if they make the NHL as a regular.
 

Team_Spirit

95% Elliotte
Jul 3, 2002
37,187
16,275
Thanks for the read Miz , that's the kind of thread i like !

Good work overall and i have only 2 little things to say :

Delete Jiri Novotny name out of Buffalo .

Add Josef Balej in Montreal :D .
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
Hossa said:
I have both Oullette and Bryzgalov in a long-term fantasy hockey league. Oullette is a superior prospect. According to Caps fans, the reason Stana is in the NHL and not Oullette is financial. Oullette could earn about three times as much as Stana in the NHL, and they aren't going to call up Oullette until they know he can be the starter or at least play half of the time. I don't agree with it, but that's a large part of the reasoning. It's not that Stana has surpassed him, but more that it makes more sense developmentally and financially, for him to stay in the AHL right now.

What in your opinion makes Ouellet a superior prospect.. In McKeen's last top 100 prospects list ...The have both goalies just a few positions apart and neither in the top 25 prospects, in their last report dated October 2003..unlike other top goalie prospects like Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen that are rated very high...

Bryzgalov leads Ouellet in nearly every AHL goalie stat and other than hype that have always followed Ouellet around since he was drafted,
both are similar ages, weight, height etc.

So what what makes Ouellet SUPERIOR???

There a hundreds of examples of over hyped prospects with can't miss labels like say Pavel Brendl from Max draft year that never came close to expectations....and there will be many more to come in the future..
 
Last edited:

Volchenkov

Registered User
Feb 1, 2003
2,940
0
elibenporat.blogspot.com
I enjoyed the list a lot, Mizral, though I think that NJ is way too high. The have at most 3 legitimate prospects and in no way should be ranked ahead of the likes of Nashville, Columbus and Atlanta.

Most likely I'm just biased against NJ :) but I don't think a team with at most one unquestioned top 50 prospect and maybe 4 in the top 120 should be ranked 9th. I mean if you have 4 players in the top 120 with an average ranking of at most 60, you are an under average team when it comes to prospects. I'd probably put NJ 12-13.

Glad to see no sens fans complaining that Ottawa's not in the top 10. Now that Spezza's no longer a prospect, the Sens should be in the 10-15 range depending on how much stock you put into Mirnov's performance this year.
 

Ruckus007

where to?
May 27, 2003
8,023
23
Huntington, WV
The interesting thing is that I don't think Ouellet has been spelled correcting in this entire thread. I normally don't really care about these sorts of things but I couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer.


Mizral, I guess I have the standard complaint of Washington too high, Nashville too low. Personally I'm not particularly high on Gordon as anything other than a spare part, but I guess time will tell.

Homer portion of the post: Novotny could develop into a nice checking center but he's probably a long way off due to injuries and being rushed over. A darkhorse could be Artem Kriukov, if Buffalo can ever get him out of Russia he had a very strong camp this year and might still turn into the player Buffalo thought they drafted.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
Ruckus007 said:
The interesting thing is that I don't think Ouellet has been spelled correcting in this entire thread. I normally don't really care about these sorts of things but I couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer.


Mizral, I guess I have the standard complaint of Washington too high, Nashville too low. Personally I'm not particularly high on Gordon as anything other than a spare part, but I guess time will tell.

Homer portion of the post: Novotny could develop into a nice checking center but he's probably a long way off due to injuries and being rushed over. A darkhorse could be Artem Kriukov, if Buffalo can ever get him out of Russia he had a very strong camp this year and might still turn into the player Buffalo thought they drafted.

I wonder how many more people will come on here and say Washington too high, Nashville too low, before he starts realizing that and goes back and makes adjustments or does further research to see what every one is saying???

Doesn't / Didn't Kriukov suffer from serious concussions in his young career already that could affect his NHL future???
 

Mizral

Registered User
Sep 20, 2002
18,187
2
Earth, MW
Visit site
The Messenger said:
I wonder how many more people will come on here and say Washington too high, Nashville too low, before he starts realizing that and goes back and makes adjustments or does further research to see what every one is saying???[/B]

Where did it say, 'Hockey's Future Organization Rankings'? These are my rankings. If you don't like it, that's fine, but I'm not about to change them based on a few people overrating Dan Hamhuis & Brian Finley.
 

st_roland

Guest
The Messenger said:
What in your opinion makes Ouellet a superior prospect.. In McKeen's last top 100 prospects list ...The have both goalies just a few positions apart and neither in the top 25 prospects, in their last report dated October 2003..unlike other top goalie prospects like Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen that are rated very high...

Bryzgalov leads Ouellet in nearly every AHL goalie stat and other than hype that have always followed Ouellet around since he was drafted,
both are similar ages, weight, height etc.

So what what makes Ouellet SUPERIOR???

There a hundreds of examples of over hyped prospects with can't miss labels like say Pavel Brendl from Max draft year that never came close to expectations....and there will be many more to come in the future..


Briefly, Ouellet has been playing like a god in the AHL for awhile now. Do you think its any coincidence that a bunch of Portland Pirates are on the Caps(Esp. Defensemen) and Ouellet stats have suffered? And if you have any confidence in mcKeens top 100, you really need to start spreading your attention around a bit. Right after that top 100 was released, there was a thread on this forum with virtually everyone bashing it as pure horse-crap.
 

ICX*

Guest
Great job Miz - only quibble is that Nashville is behind the Devils and that you mentioned DeMarchi over Suglobov, who is currently second on the River Rats in scoring in his first year playing American hockey. He was a real boom-or-bust pick who may see some time in the bigs this year. DeMarchi has been steady in Albany, but he's well off the NHL radar for the time being.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
st_roland said:
Briefly, Ouellet has been playing like a god in the AHL for awhile now. Do you think its any coincidence that a bunch of Portland Pirates are on the Caps(Esp. Defensemen) and Ouellet stats have suffered? And if you have any confidence in mcKeens top 100, you really need to start spreading your attention around a bit. Right after that top 100 was released, there was a thread on this forum with virtually everyone bashing it as pure horse-crap.

That's my exact point..McKeen's is a professional organization.. There rankings are compiled by qualified people.. Who speak directly to the NHL organizations for the info, interview the players and take in hundreds of games a year, and base those rankings on a combined analysis of many people. McKeen's also releases a magazine, the same one lots of posters here use to play in Hockey pools..

Hockey futures while a good source for info, have message boards made up of over 90% enthusiastic fans.. So if they are the ones questioning McKeens work,

....then couldn't you say that adds more credibility to Mckeen's and discredits HF as a result if Non-professionals are criticizing professionals work.. Who would know more.????. If you wrote an article on a NHL teams prospects or The GM of that team wrote the report.. Who is likely to know more on the subject and be a better source for information..

Also some of the Writers on here that post reports and interviews of prospects are in fact employed by McKeen's as writers...
 
Last edited:

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
Mizral said:
Where did it say, 'Hockey's Future Organization Rankings'? These are my rankings. If you don't like it, that's fine, but I'm not about to change them based on a few people overrating Dan Hamhuis & Brian Finley.

Here's a good article so you can familiarize yourself with Hamhuis..

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article.php?sid=6446&mode=threaded&order=0

Its that kind of response that will take credibility away from your rankings...

I for instance can give you at least 3 Professional References that have Hamhuis as a Top 20 prospect, so are you saying that these Organizations that make money grading/ranking prospects know little and you know more then they do?

Could they all be wrong???
 

Ruckus007

where to?
May 27, 2003
8,023
23
Huntington, WV
The Messenger said:
Doesn't / Didn't Kriukov suffer from serious concussions in his young career already that could affect his NHL future???


He's had a pretty wide array of injuries in his short career, concussions being one of them. He had a pretty strong showing in camp and he spent about a month practicing in Rochester while the Sabres tried to hammer out an agreement with Yaroslavl to bring him over... to no avail. There's a bit of a glimmer of hope with now that wasn't there a year ago. Like I said, just a darkhorse to keep in the back of your mind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->