Mitch Marner vs Johnny Hockey

[authentic]

Marner is younger and plays on a really good offensive team. That’s his only advantage here. JG is the better player. Just a more dynamic player who drives a line by himself. One of the best small players I’ve seen in a while. I don’t count MSL as small as he had tree trunk legs.

I always find it funny when people use St. Louis as an example of small players who dominate. His lower body strength is Crosby/Jagr like. He was vastly stronger than Gaudreau.

 

[Tkachuky]

Nobody is saying Gaudreau sucks, he is a phenomenal player.

That’s fair. And likewise for flames and Marner. I still think Gaudreau is underrated and can get to another level 90-100 points.

Anyways, I just saw the Marner vs Pettersson thread... yikes. How are people picking pettersson over Marner is beyond me....

 

[BAM]

Marner put up more points than Martin St.louis at the same age, is he going to be a 4x Art Ross winner because he's better at the same age?

Yeah, no? That's what I thought.

No, but JG isn't a 4 time Art Ross winner, I definitely think Marner has the potential to be as good if not better than Geaudreau

 

[thunder16]

Marner is younger and plays on a really good offensive team. That’s his only advantage here. JG is the better player. Just a more dynamic player who drives a line by himself. One of the best small players I’ve seen in a while. I don’t count MSL as small as he had tree trunk legs.

Glad you said a line.......Marner drives a TEAM

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Glad you said a line.......Marner drives a TEAM

Of course he does. Until there’s a Matthews, Tavares, Nylander or Rielly thread.
That 69 points by Marner clearly ‘drove’ the team last year.
Hyperbole at its finest.

 

[93LEAFS]

Of course he does. Until there’s a Matthews, Tavares, Nylander or Rielly thread.
That 69 points by Marner clearly ‘drove’ the team last year.
Hyperbole at its finest.

Marner has been the best player on his line both years prior to this. This is the first time he's had a superior player. So, don't act like Marner isn't a key catalyst. He's been the most important player on the Leafs PP for the past 2 years and is the main reason they have been a top 3 unit in the league since he entered the league.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Marner has been the best player on his line both years prior to this. This is the first time he's had a superior player. So, don't act like Marner isn't a key catalyst. He's been the most important player on the Leafs PP for the past 2 years and is the main reason they have been a top 3 unit in the league since he entered the league.

He didn’t drive the team last year. Full stop.
We all know what Matthews and others did.
If you want to come up with an argument to support Marner fine. But to say Gaudreau drove his line and Marner ‘drove the team’ is hyperbole.
I doubt there has been a more important player to his team than Gaudreau.

 

[93LEAFS]

He didn’t drive the team last year. Full stop.
We all know what Matthews and others did.
If you want to come up with an argument to support Marner fine. But to say Gaudreau drove his line and Marner ‘drove the team’ is hyperbole.
I doubt there has been a more important player to his team than Gaudreau.

Umm, Connor McDavid? MacKinnon last year? Taylor Hall last year?

I said he drove his line, because you originally said because Gaudreau drove his line, a leafs fan responded with hyperbole, which you just did to my response. All I said he was the best player on his line the last 2 years (either with JVR-Bozak or Marleau-Kadri), and that he was the most important player in our elite PP which has only been worse than the Pens since the start of the 2016/17 season.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Umm, Connor McDavid? MacKinnon last year? Taylor Hall last year?

I said he drove his line, because you originally said because Gaudreau drove his line, a leafs fan responded with hyperbole, which you just did to my response. All I said he was the best player on his line the last 2 years (either with JVR-Bozak or Marleau-Kadri), and that he was the most important player in our elite PP which has only been worse than the Pens since the start of the 2016/17 season.

Nope. A Leaf fan said Marner drove the team while Gaudreau drove his line. You’re not even responding to the post by arguing Marner is one of the Leafs important players. Of course he is. But he didn’t drive his team and there’s absolutely no hyperbole in saying that.
It’s also not hyperbole to suggest that Gaudreau has been one of the most important players to his team.

 

[Romkey]

Honestly I really don't see a difference in terms of skill. JG has more raw skill and speed, but IMO Marner has a high hockey IQ and is a better passer. JG has him beat on his shot and straight speed, but I think Marner has better shot selection (those slap passes are dirty) and is a better skater on his edges.

Both are superstars, but if I had to pick one it'd be Marner for two reasons: 1) Age/junior pedigree, 2) Because i'm a shameless Leafs homer

But seriously, this was one of the harder polls to me. I have both on my fantasy team

 

[Mugzy97]

He didn’t use points per game as stats. And how is it irrelevant? Smaller sample sizes are less accurate than larger ones. Common sense.

I don’t know who’s stats you’re talking about but I used ppg stats. And the fact that both players never played less than 70 games is the reason I said it’s irrelevant.

That’s fair. And likewise for flames and Marner. I still think Gaudreau is underrated and can get to another level 90-100 points.

Anyways, I just saw the Marner vs Pettersson thread... yikes. How are people picking pettersson over Marner is beyond me....

When the question is who will be better in the future, it makes it an opinion, not a fact. Some people are very high on Petterson’s potential, so they choose him. Doesn’t make anybody wrong or right, so I’m not worried about it.

 

[93LEAFS]

He didn’t drive the team last year. Full stop.
We all know what Matthews and others did.
If you want to come up with an argument to support Marner fine. But to say Gaudreau drove his line and Marner ‘drove the team’ is hyperbole.
I doubt there has been a more important player to his team than Gaudreau.

Marner is younger and plays on a really good offensive team. That’s his only advantage here. JG is the better player. Just a more dynamic player who drives a line by himself. One of the best small players I’ve seen in a while. I don’t count MSL as small as he had tree trunk legs.

I was responding to the thread that devolved from this. You implied that the big factor here is Gaudreau drives a line by himself and Marner can't by saying that is the difference.

Nope. A Leaf fan said Marner drove the team while Gaudreau drove his line. You’re not even responding to the post by arguing Marner is one of the Leafs important players. Of course he is. But he didn’t drive his team and there’s absolutely no hyperbole in saying that.

It’s also not hyperbole to suggest that Gaudreau has been one of the most important players to his team.

Again, you said there is no more important player to his team than Gaudreau. Now, do you mean league-wide or just on the Flames? Because if its the former its a hyperbole. Again, though, Marner was the 2nd best player on a team that finished with 105 points and the best on whatever line he was on (because he never plays with Matthews outside of a game and a half stretch in basically), that's a pretty big accomplishment when you are a 20-year-old player. Gaudreau was still at BC at that age, and this question isn't just about right now, but projecting longterm. Gaudreau was the most valuable player last year on a team that massively disappointed considering expectations entering the year. Just because someone was more valuable to a bad team doesn't mean they are better.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I was responding to the thread that devolved from this. You implied that the big factor here is Gaudreau drives a line by himself and Marner can't by saying that is the difference.



Again, you said there is no more important player to his team than Gaudreau. Now, do you mean league-wide or just on the Flames? Because if its the former its a hyperbole. Again, though, Marner was the 2nd best player on a team that finished with 105 points and the best on whatever line he was on (because he never plays with Matthews outside of a game and a half stretch in basically), that's a pretty big accomplishment when you are a 20-year-old player. Gaudreau was still at BC at that age, and this question isn't just about right now, but projecting longterm. Gaudreau was the most valuable player last year on a team that massively disappointed considering expectations entering the year. Just because someone was more valuable to a bad team doesn't mean they are better.

Marner doesn’t drive a line by himself. He has Tavares. He also has other lines to step in if his line falters.
This is what I mean by hyperbole. He’s a good player but the Leafs are a much deeper team than the Flames. If Gaudreau doesn’t produce the Flames don’t win. Doesn’t make one better than the other but it debunks the argument that Marner drives his team and Gaudreau only drives his line which is the post I responded to and the one you quoted.
Anyways we’re largely going around in circles at this point and sidetracking the discussion. I stand by my comments that Marner does not drive the team.

 

[93LEAFS]

Marner doesn’t drive a line by himself. He has Tavares. He also has other lines to step in if his line falters.
This is what I mean by hyperbole. He’s a good player but the Leafs are a much deeper team than the Flames.
Anyways we’re largely going around in circles at this point and sidetracking the discussion. I stand by my comments that Marner does not drive the team.

You said he doesn't drive his line. He's played 4 NHL games with Tavares. The other 2 years with other players. To say the difference is Marner can't drive a line offensively is ridiculous. Gaudreau has played pretty much most of his career with Monahan, who is probably better than any linemate Marner has had for a consistent basis until he got JT.

I know what a hyperbole is, but you are attacking someone who didn't say it. I'm attacking what you originally said, so don't group me in with other peoples statements, when I've directly confronted your original one, which drew the reply you keep on referencing.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

You said he doesn't drive his line. He's played 4 NHL games with Tavares. The other 2 years with other players. To say the difference is Marner can't drive a line offensively is ridiculous. Gaudreau has played pretty much most of his career with Monahan, who is probably better than any linemate Marner has had for a consistent basis until he got JT.

Again I disagree. How many points did Marner get ‘driving his line’? He had 61 points and 69 points. Exclude the PP points which were not with his line.
You and I have different definitions of what driving a line means. And Marner has had some very good offensive linemates. Just because they are no longer Leafs they were still good offensive players.
Look no one is saying he isn’t a good player who someday could be as good as JG. He just isn’t there yet. Could get there as early as this year. We’ll see.

 

[HOPE]

Gaudreau is fancier but i think Marner is a much more effective all around player than Gaudreau, he does alot of little detail better than Gaudreau does right now even at the age of 21.

Habs fan speaking, Suppose to be hating on him, but always been a fan of his since day 1, Can't help from being an objective guy for the love of hockey!

Hockey fan > Organisation fan

 

[93LEAFS]

Again I disagree. How many points did Marner get ‘driving his line’? He had 61 points and 69 points. Exclude the PP points which were not with his line.
You and I have different definitions of what driving a line means. And Marner has had some very good offensive linemates. Just because they are no longer Leafs they were still good offensive players.

He excelled best with Kadri. He's been a fine 5v5 producer. He was the best player on his line, so who was driving his line in 2016/17? JVR? Bozak?

Monahan is better offensive center than anyone Marner played with full time until this year. Your statement was ridiculous. Don't try to deflect by saying I'm trying to trash former Leafs, I include Kadri in this discussion, who is still on our team.

Again, you are also ignoring the difference in ages. Marner is 4 years younger. Gaudreau was just entering the league with a 64 point season, Marner has a 61 point season in 77 games and a 69 in 82.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

He excelled best with Kadri. He's been a fine 5v5 producer. He was the best player on his line, so who was driving his line in 2016/17? JVR? Bozak?

Monahan is better offensive center than anyone Marner played with full time until this year. Your statement was ridiculous. Don't try to deflect by saying I'm trying to trash former Leafs, I include Kadri in this discussion, who is still on our team.

Again, you are also ignoring the difference in ages. Marner is 4 years younger. Gaudreau was just entering the league with a 64 point season, Marner has a 61 point season in 77 games and a 69 in 82.

He was not the best offensive player on his line. He had 69 points last year, many on the PP. Kadri is a fine center and JVR and Bozak are also good players. All three players on the line were important. And for the record I’m not saying being great on the PP is not important. It’s an incredibly important skill and I see him as the guy who runs their PP.

And I’m not ignoring his age. I specifically said he’s not as good as JG but may get there as soon as this year. It’s right there at the end of my post. Maybe you should have read it?
I’ve also said given their ages it’s an unfair poll.

I think you’ve interpreted my posts to say that Marner is not a good player. Which I’ve never said. Both are great players. I just think JG is the more dynamic of the two. No wrong choice here.

 

[93LEAFS]

He was not the best offensive player on his line. He had 69 points last year, many on the PP. Kadri is a fine center and JVR and Bozak are also good players. All three players on the line were important. And for the record I’m not saying being great on the PP is not important. It’s an incredibly important skill and I see him as the guy who runs their PP.

And I’m not ignoring his age. I specifically said he’s not as good as JG but may get there as soon as this year. It’s right there at the end of my post. Maybe you should have read it?

Who is better than Marner offensively on those lines? Because none of those players are or were.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Who is better than Marner offensively on those lines? Because none of those players are or were.

Ok. We’ve reached an impasse then. You think Marner at 69 points minus his PP points was the best offensive player at ES on his line.
We’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[93LEAFS]

Ok. We’ve reached an impasse then. You think Marner at 69 points minus his PP points was the best offensive player at ES on his line.
We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Yes, who was JVR or Bozak?

You are dramatically underselling a Toronto player again.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Yes, who was JVR or Bozak?

You are dramatically underselling a Toronto player again.

Seems to me you’re ‘underselling’ former Toronto players ‘again.’
JVR was the best offensive player on that line pretty clearly and all three were good offensive players without one clearly being head and shoulders above the others. Marner will likely end up as the best. In contrast JG was head and shoulders above his linemates and still went over a PPG.
Nothing I’ve said has undersold Marner. In fact I’ve said many positive things about him. Some people just prefer JG right now.
Nothing wrong with that.

 

[93LEAFS]

Seems to me you’re ‘underselling’ former Toronto players ‘again.’
JVR was the best offensive player on that line pretty clearly. Marner will end up as the best.
Nothing I’ve said has undersold Marner. In fact I’ve said many positive things about him. Some people just prefer JG right now.
Nothing wrong with that.

JVR was not the best player on that line. The play ran through Marner. That isn't underselling former Leafs, this is what I would have said two years ago. JVR has never driven a line or been able to in his career. He's very good at what he specifically does, but he doesn't drive play.

If you want to say Kadri was key possession wise and defensively at 5v5 fine, there's at least an argument there.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

JVR was not the best player on that line. The play ran through Marner. That isn't underselling former Leafs, this is what I would have said two years ago. JVR has never driven a line or been able to in his career. He's very good at what he specifically does, but he doesn't drive play.

If you want to say Kadri was key possession wise and defensively at 5v5 fine, there's at least an argument there.

Ok now we’re just arguing semantics. I’m talking about the importance of a player to a line. To argue that Marner with 69 points (many on thePP)was driving his line to the point that JG was is just ridiculous. Marner and JVR and to a lesser extent Bozak were equally important. JG was a PPG player who clearly was head and shoulders the best player on his line and the best forward on his team.
I’m not sure how I can make this any clearer to be honest. So at this point I’ll move on.

 

[Ronald Ocean]

Gaudreau is the driver behind the Flames offense, Marner has the luxury of being a passenger on the Leafs offense, a skilled contributing passenger but a passenger nonetheless.

Voted Gaudreau.

Know how I know you've never seen Marner play?