Salary Cap: Mitch Marner Contract Discussion Part VIII | We Waitin'

[Bomber0104]

We weren't comparing players in any way.

Are you honestly forgetting what you wrote.

Stick to the argument you made and defend it dont change the argument half way through it.

Sure we are. Why wouldn't we?

I asked which teams had three of the most expensive contracts in the league.

Apparently you had nothing to cite other than the Cup winning Pittsburgh Penguins...who had two of the top 3 players in the world on their team signed at a smaller percentage of the cap hit than the players you're comparing to on the Leafs: Matthews and Tavares.

It's a terrible example because the player comparisons are embarrassingly bad and they were signed for cheaper anyway!

 

[Warden of the North]

If someone wants to pay Mitch 13+, they can have him.

 

[DarkKnight]

So if Marner's point totals increase more than Tavares' next season? Lets say Marner goes from 94 to 110 points (+16) and Tavares goes from 88 to 91 points (+3). Does that mean Tavares is the better player, still?

Tavares points increased massively 5 v 5, he obliterated his career highs. The posters premise relies on a down year on the PP to skew the incredible output, and thank god or Marner would be getting even more.

JT scored 12 more even strength goals this year than his career high, that’s amazing really.

 

[Superstar]

So if Marner's point totals increase more than Tavares' next season? Lets say Marner goes from 94 to 110 points (+16) and Tavares goes from 88 to 91 points (+3). Does that mean Tavares is the better player, still?

Let's wait and see if that happens, I doubt it...plus I didn't use any hypothetical numbers...those are real numbers.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Sure we are. Why wouldn't we?

I asked which teams had three of the most expensive contracts in the league.

Apparently you had nothing to cite other than Pittsburgh...who had two of the top 3 players in the world on their team signed at a smaller percentage of the cap hit than the players you were comparing to on the Leafs: Matthews and Tavares.

It's a terrible example because the player comparisons are terrible and they were signed for cheaper anyway!

Go read your original post you clown.

This all stemmed from you saying no team has ever won with 3 players over 10 mil.

I explained cap goes up. Since you alre lost and dont understand that I gave you and example of what was being explained.

But huge surprise you dont understand again.

 

[Kiwi]

I understand where you're coming from, but the point he's making still has validity. He's not comparing players, he simply stating that Marner had a slow start to the season, and really picked it up over a very large sample size. When you expect a player to improve from October to April, it totally makes sense to omit the first portion of the season.

If you're worried about comparing these numbers... then the best way would probably be splitting the season in half, and compare the 2nd half outputs. Reason being, you'd expect the 2nd half would be the better representation of player becasue they're DEVELOPING. 41 games is still a large sample size to evaluate players.

He was calling the guy out (rightly or wrongly), but he wasn't calling him names....

You can't just cut a full 3rd of a season out and pretend it didn't happen, it also goes into the calculation just like how fantastic he was over the other 130 games, you take the full 2 seasons

Accusing somebody of that after they pointed out actual fact based reality is bloody rediculous, I don't expect that out of that particular poster, he's sane most of the time even if I don't always agree with him

Fruit boy? LOL

Poor Kiwi

I've been called worse

 

[MyBudJT]

Let's wait and see if that happens, I doubt it...plus I didn't use any hypothetical numbers...those are real numbers.

You missed my point. Your numbers aren't telling the story you want it to.

 

[MyBudJT]

You can't just cut a full 3rd of a season out and pretend it didn't happen, it also goes into the calculation just like how fantastic he was over the other 130 games, you take the full 2 seasons

Again, you certainly can cut out a full 3rd of a season, if that third of a season is irrelevant to the point you're trying to make. Context is important.

 

[CelticDruid]

Marner at 10×5
NTC?
Given up our first-round choice 2020
Hamper UFA signings?


Is it all worth it?

 

[Bomber0104]

Go read your original post you clown.

This all stemmed from you saying no team has ever won with 3 players over 10 mil.

I explained cap goes up. Since you alre lost and dont understand that I gave you and example of what was being explained.

But huge surprise you dont understand again.

No I asked for a team that's won with 3 of the most expensive contracts in the league.

You gave me Pittsburgh and I think even you (maybe ) realize how terrible of an example it is, considering their players were better than ours and signed for a smaller percentage of the cap.

Try again or move along, dear.

 

[Superstar]

You missed my point. Your numbers aren't telling the story you want it to.

Folks saying that Marner is the best player on the team because he led the team in scoring the last 2 years, thus should be paid just like Matthews aren't telling the whole story either.

 

[HolyCrap]

If someone wants to pay Mitch 13+, they can have him.

I honestly wonder if we’re better off with the four firsts and cap room. Maybe we can package the picks with players and get some solid help on defence and still be able to fill in a good top 6 winger (which is left by Marner). I dunno it would suck losing Mitch but I just can’t see us going far with this backend and if Zaitsev is moved. Or maybe Dubas can pull of a big trade.

 

[4StevieBlunder4]

I think things are too tense in here lol.

Any way you slice it, the Leafs win. Either we get Marner, or we get cap space and 4 unprotected 1sts, or we get a King’s ransom via trade.

I understand being bitter, especially after what happened with Nylander, but the simple reality is Marner owes us nothing, and we owe him nothing.

I take 4 1st round picks over 6 years of Marner at anything above 10.5 all day, everyday. It would be disappointing to lose a talent like that, but the flexibility and possibilities after that point will make it easier to stomach.

All that said, my prediction is 6 years at 10 mil...... then with our luck he won’t score for 25 games

 

[Man Bear Pig]

If someone wants to pay Mitch 13+, they can have him.

No kidding. That would be a $4 million dollar jump from last summer. I know opposing fans would laugh at us losing a great player, but this helps no team. This is what inflates contracts.

 

[Kiwi]

Again, you certainly can cut out a full 3rd of a season, if that third of a season is irrelevant to the point you're trying to make. Context is important.

Just think about that for a second, if I said Nylander is better than Marner if I cut his best 30 game stretch out of those two years would I be correct?

Context is the whole 2 years, not just the bits that back your argument whilst you dismiss the bits that don't

 

[MyBudJT]

Tavares points increased massively 5 v 5, he obliterated his career highs. The posters premise relies on a down year on the PP to skew the incredible output, and thank god or Marner would be getting even more.

JT scores 12 more even strength goals this year than his career high, that’s amazing really.

For sure. The exciting thing is you've got to expect our PP to improve now, too. I'm looking forward to seeing how we change our PP system.

Even if Marner's EV production stays about the same, but his PP production gets going... Marner could hit 110 points next season.

 

[MyBudJT]

Just think about that for a second, if I said Nylander is better than Marner if I cut his best 30 game stretch out of those two years would I be correct?

Context is the whole 2 years, not just the bits that back your argument whilst you dismiss the bits that don't

Well, it depends on the context you're using it in.

If you're cutting Marner's 30 best game stretch, you should cut out Nylander's 30 best game stretch. Not really sure what the point of that would be exactly.

DarkKnight wasn't cutting out a random stretch. It was a stretch where Marner had no confidence, and played a bunch on the 4th line. There is rational reasons to omit that sample if you're looking at the data contextually.

 

[MyBudJT]

Folks saying that Marner is the best player on the team because he led the team in scoring the last 2 years, thus should be paid just like Matthews aren't telling the whole story either.

Well, no numbers tell the whole story... But the numbers you're using has doesn't even have the slightest bit to do with the story you're trying to make of it.

 

[Kiwi]

Well, it depends on the context you're using it in.

If you're cutting Marner's 30 best game stretch, you should cut out Nylander's 30 best game stretch. Not really sure what the point of that would be exactly.

DarkKnight wasn't cutting out a random stretch. It was a stretch where Marner had no confidence, and played a bunch on the 4th line. There is rational reasons to omit that sample if you're looking at the data contextually.

No, he cut out the bit that hurt his argument to try making his point
If you have to do that your argument isn't very good

 

[MarnerElite]

If Marner doesn't sign, this will be the biggest disappointment(for me anyways) in the last 25 or so years...and quite a few know all the shit we've had to deal with over the years. To me, a good GM should have seen this coming and i think Dubas thought players were going to take less because they want to win and all. Why not get rid of worse players, cut the fat someplace else(Nylander, Kadri(literally not needed for ANYTHING), Brown(same as Naz)..a ton to save by getting rid of 2 of these 3)?. Instead he might lose one of the greatest players we've had for a long time(not to mention kid has such great work ethic which is rarity these days as most just care about using skill which is great for entertainment but gets you nowhere else). Do people realize the 5 picks we get back may not even become anywhere as good as Marner? 95 pts and he actually can do WAY BETTER(for example work on that wrist shot to get more goals..it's something you can definitely improve)...If Dubas ruins this i'm not watching this team at all next year(they literally have not 1 elite playmaker so good luck to people who believe somehow this team will be better without Mitch).

 

[18leafsfan18]

No I asked for a team that's won with 3 of the most expensive contracts in the league.

You gave me Pittsburgh and I think even you (maybe ) realize how terrible of an example it is, considering their players were better than ours and signed for a smaller percentage of the cap.

Try again or move along, dear.

And how did those teams do?

Do tell..

When I added the post about teams being the first to win with 3 8 million dollar players you replied with this.

Where in that post do you mention having 3 players on the highest contracts in the league ?

Remember what your wrote and move on.

 

[Bomber0104]

When I added the post about teams being the first to win with 3 8 million dollar players you replied with this.

Where in that post do you mention having 3 players on the highest contracts in the league ?

Remember what your wrote and move on.

After you refused to answer the question, the very next post

I'm not the one making the claim that having 3 of the most expensive contracts in the league is wise practice, you are.

And your defence in support of that strategy is "other teams must have done it before too, so we're alright"?

Sorry but that's not very convincing.

Again, all I want is an example of three of a Cup winning team with three of the most expensive contracts in the league.

And try not cite examples with Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin this time. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Tavares and Matthews are just not on that tier of player.

I'm giving you a chance to redeem yourself here. Please don't fail again!

 

[18leafsfan18]

After you refused to answer the question, the very next post



Again, all I want is an example of three of a Cup winning team with three of the most expensive contracts in the league.

And try not cite examples with Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin this time. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Tavares and Matthews are just not on that tier of player.

You change the question mid argument after I answer your original question, now you change the question again.

 

[Mess]

Agree completely. People are wasting their time with external comparable, they don’t apply here. The kid put up as many points per 60 even strength than Matthews, he was a top player in takeaways, played against other teams best line, evolved into a first line PKer and gave a 10 year pro a career year, by a mile 5 v 5! He’s looking at the club dynamics and the money is recognition. We aren’t here because of him, that I’m certain of...we botched the Big 3.

As an aside, I don’t believe he is worth what he’s asking, never have. But, I don’t believe the other two do either, especially on that term, so....In Dubie dollars his ask has merit.

I agree completely. Its Dubas that created all this, all on his own doing and all the Leafs top players are overpaid now as a result as you put it best in "Dubie dollars" which are not = NHL dollars when paying for production, so why would the players use externals when the internal Leaf only payscale is so much more favourable for them?

Dubas gives Tavares $11 mil to bring him to TO and he sent Leafs internal pay scale through the roof in terms on other teams comparables as a result. [pay for points/60]

JT put up 88 points last year for $11 mil cap and Kucherov just put up 128 points and signed for $9.5 mil X 8 years, while teammate Stamkos a regular 45-50 goal man took $8.5 mil X 8 and put up 98 points. Marner put up 94 points which is more than JT so in Dubie Toronto $$ his rate he is now worth $11 mil ask also.

None of Tavares, Matthews nor Marner on his new/next deal are worth their bang (production) for their cap buck in terms of NHL comparables, they're all out of wack, but they're getting paid in the Dubie Toronto $$ rate dollars of production and so points scored by Toronto players end up costing more $$ and cap hit internally as a result.

If Marner and Point switched teams magically, does anyone think Marner would be sitting here asking for $11 mil X 5 years compared to what his teammates Kuch and Stammer just resigned for and who out produced him. Of course not, but internal Dubie $$ he is more than inline with his overpaid teammates and point production comparable.

 

[BallardEra]

Does Toronto have any plans to meet with Rantanen, Point, Aho, Provorov and Werenski?

No but Paul does and will lay out some negotiating tips for them.