Salary Cap: Mitch Marner Contract Discussion Part VII | The Saga Continues

[WTFMAN99]

Its not Dubas, it would be directed at the Leafs organization overall.

Marner feels he already cut the Leafs a break because Lou Lam doesn't believe in giving out rookie bonus easily, so now as a result Mitch doesn't feel obligated to give them another discount on his 2nd deal, as they got that on his 1st ELC.

I don't see that position as anything directed at Dubas personally for Lou Lam actions, its all about getting what he feels he is worth from the organization, the GM in the seat is just the one facilitating the transaction. IMO

It was Dubas that orchestrated that "We before Me" media blitz last summer, trying to convince players to take less, but none of the 3 Amigo's bought into that and Marner is not doing anything different that Willy and Auston didn't do also and that is look out for themselves first.

Its not personal, its business.

I think based on everything that has happened, Nylander probably landed about what you would think...but he failed to really show up afterwards. If Nylander showed up in the same way...Marner making 2-2.5M over Nylander seems about right.

Matthews contract wasn't good.

Marner is being offered market or slightly above market.

And the only winger on that list had 3 cups prior to signing.

Yep

 

[ACC1224]

Too many drinks and drama. Babs only knows the old school way to deal with these kinda things. and who knows maybe he was right. If Paul is bringing up all that stuff again I was hoping he'd be bigger than that for his sake. if negotiations are going backwards like that then it is bad. if it goes public then i'm afraid that's it for Mitch here.

yeah would be a shame for sure.
I think they'll get past it all and by camp all will be long forgotten.

 

[Drew311]

I'm sure this has been brought up, but I think the root of the entire problem we are facing is Dubas signing Tavares last summer. Because we are "Toronto" and he was available, there was this feeling like we HAD to sign him, but in reality, with out core being so young, it really didn't make any sense (at least to me), it was a luxury, not a necessity.

The main negative effect appears if you look at what happened cap-wise. Tavares' contract set a precedent in terms of comparable cap-hit number, specifically within the Toronto market. Players agents use other players as a measuring stick, but certain markets are different than other markets. Without Tavares and his 11M dollar contract, there would have not been a comparable in this market, so Matthews' agent would have had to use the Nylander contract as a measuring stick. This could have resulted in Matthews getting 10M - 10.5M and subsequently, Marner would have only been able to ask for 9M - 9.5M. Plus, we wouldn't have been up against it cap wise.

The McDavid contract changed everything. Tavares had little to do with it.

 

[thewave]

Open letter to Mitch and Paul Marner

Take the money Mitch, you earned it and aren't supposed give your slice to pay for the AZcat. I get it if you need traded, it may be for the best as this team is looking to be going Muskoka 5 country club style again. The D here is weak and all the timings with development are out of sync for contending. When the D core gets paid it will be cannibalism 2.0. Get paid.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

The McDavid contract changed everything. Tavares had little to do with it.

The Oilers and Sabres pretty much blew up the RFA market.

 

[ACC1224]

There were DM leaks from Paul Marner bashing Mike Babcock. Apparently Leaf management had to speak with Paul about them.

Paul Marner took Mitch Marner playing on the 4th line at times in his rookie year personally.

There were a bunch of things I remember hearing about, ice time certainly being one of them and Babcock being more of an issue than Lou Lam.
Think the first issue was right after they drafted Marner he was told to take down a website they had just put up to start cashing in.

 

[Mess]

Marner is being offered market or slightly above market.

You made an interesting point previously about grudges in that it would be interesting to know had Marner ELC included all rookie performance Schedule A bonuses in his 1st deal and if Marner feels he missed out on, that he is now trying to recover on his new deal.

Entry Level Performance Bonuses

Entry Level Contracts are eligible for Performance Bonuses. There are two categories of Performance Bonuses:
"A" Level Bonuses
"A" Bonuses are worth $212,500 each, to a maximum of $850,000 (maximum 4 achieved). They are achieved by each of:
-20 goals
-35 assists
-60 points
-Top six in Time on Ice among forwards on team (minimum 42 games)
-Top six in +/- among forwards on team (minimum 42 games)
-0.73 points per game (minimum 42 games)

All 3 seasons Marner hit those thresholds, so he would have lost $850k X 3 [$2.55 mil total] as a result.

Are his current demands including reimbursement for lost wages? ie $2.55 mil over 5 years term = $ .510k per season.

Marner's $11 mil X 5 year ask might actually be $10.5 mil X 5 years + .500K [lost wages] on ELC contract. As that is the only way he would really be holding a grudge over past issues that impacted him financially.

 

[Subway Schenn]

Open letter to Mitch and Paul Marner

Take the money Mitch, you earned it and aren't supposed give your slice to pay for the AZcat. I get it if you need traded, it may be for the best as this team is looking to be going Muskoka 5 country club style again. The D here is weak and all the timings with development are out of sync for contending. When the D core gets paid it will be cannibalism 2.0. Get paid.

Alright Paul

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'm sure this has been brought up, but I think the root of the entire problem we are facing is Dubas signing Tavares last summer. Because we are "Toronto" and he was available, there was this feeling like we HAD to sign him, but in reality, with out core being so young, it really didn't make any sense (at least to me), it was a luxury, not a necessity.

The main negative effect appears if you look at what happened cap-wise. Tavares' contract set a precedent in terms of comparable cap-hit number, specifically within the Toronto market. Players agents use other players as a measuring stick, but certain markets are different than other markets. Without Tavares and his 11M dollar contract, there would have not been a comparable in this market, so Matthews' agent would have had to use the Nylander contract as a measuring stick. This could have resulted in Matthews getting 10M - 10.5M and subsequently, Marner would have only been able to ask for 9M - 9.5M. Plus, we wouldn't have been up against it cap wise.

He met with the big 3, they were all onboard apparently oblivious to how that meant things would be tight

 

[The CyNick]

Or perhaps the average person here knows there's more to building a winner than signing one player whereas your average "hockey fan" has a myopic zomg!-he's-the-greatest-they-need-to-give-him-anything-he-asks-for worldview.

Just give him what his teammate got paid. Simple.

 

[Walshy7]

Open letter to Mitch and Paul Marner

Take the money Mitch, you earned it and aren't supposed give your slice to pay for the AZcat. I get it if you need traded, it may be for the best as this team is looking to be going Muskoka 5 country club style again. The D here is weak and all the timings with development are out of sync for contending. When the D core gets paid it will be cannibalism 2.0. Get paid.

I look forward to you leaving to go follow your boys new team. May be the best return in the trade.

Will you move to that city or coo over him from afar?

 

[The CyNick]

"You just cited an example of a disagreement that was publicized. Cite the source of this disagreement.
The decision isn't between Tavares and Marleau. If the GM negotiated properly with the big three, we could have kept both"

wont multi msg for whatever reason, this is a direct quote from you yesterday, demanding Mezinger cite the source and ignoring him essentially because he didn't have the source. Now you want keep spouting this $9M crap about marner with no source. This was looking back to yesterday only there are many more examples of your agenda pushing and ignoring others.

I look forward to your reply but im not going to keep arguing with you, you are a meme on this site and have a opinion of yourself way above you actual level of knowledge

It was reported by several sources who are considered credible by this site. Kypper mentioned it on HNIC if memory serves me. I've heard it from other places, but not getting into that.

 

[Mess]

Just give him what his teammate got paid. Simple.

That certainly seems to be Marner's position.

You gave Tavares his $11 mil and Matthews his $11.6 mil with open arms, so where is my $11 mil as the teams leading scorer?

"I drive the offense, I drive the PP and I'm driving the Bus here".

SO

"Show me the money".

** Paraphrasing the Marner negotiating position not his actual words.

If the Leafs aren't prepared to do that, than it appears he is willing to listen to other teams that might through an offer sheet.

 

[Kamiccolo]

That certainly seems to be Marner's position.

You gave Tavares his $11 mil and Matthews his $11.6 mil with open arms, so where is my $11 mil as the teams leading scorer?

"I drive the offense, I drive the PP and I'm driving the Bus here".

SO

"Show me the money".

If the Leafs aren't prepared to do that, than it appears he is willing to listen to other teams that might through an offer sheet.

And if he can't see that he is a winger, and not a goal scorer, and he wants more than his comparables by a considerable amount without earning anything, AND that the team doesn't have the space to accommodate him, and STILL wants to do it he can f*** off elsewhere.

Just trade him Dubas. Tired of this BS. Just get a top 4 RD ++ for him and re-sign Gardiner.

 

[thewave]

Alright Paul

We are all Paul Marner, search your heart, you know Mitch deserves this.

 

[Alerion]

Does anyone have a source on Paul Marner skipping the Dad trip?

 

[The Magic Man]

I think Marner is all but guaranteeing himself to not be here over the long haul. I think he gets signed. I think he gets what he wants, 10.5+ for 5 years, but I think he gets traded before Rielly gets resigned. Rielly will be more important by then and Marner, Art Ross or not, will be highly moveable at that time.

By then the team will be built around 2 top 10 Cs and highly mobile and intelligent D. Oh well. Would've been cool to have him throughout his career and see him hold all the leaf records for offense. Not likely now.

 

[The CyNick]

That certainly seems to be Marner's position.

You gave Tavares his $11 mil and Matthews his $11.6 mil with open arms, so where is my $11 mil as the teams leading scorer?

"I drive the offense, I drive the PP and I'm driving the Bus here".

SO

"Show me the money".

If the Leafs aren't prepared to do that, than it appears he is willing to listen to other teams that might through an offer sheet.

And kills penalties to boot. And makes every game. Should be worth something.

More than the dollars is the term. Even if they come to the conclusion that matthews is worth slightly more per year, why should he get five years and marner have to take eight?

 

[The CyNick]

And if he can't see that he is a winger, and not a goal scorer, and he wants more than his comparables by a considerable amount without earning anything, AND that the team doesn't have the space to accommodate him, and STILL wants to do it he can **** off elsewhere.

Just trade him Dubas. Tired of this BS. Just get a top 4 RD ++ for him and re-sign Gardiner.

Did Kane think he was worth as much ad Toews?

 

[Menzinger]

Did Kane think he was worth as much ad Toews?

Kane is a considerably better offensive player than Toews. Which is why their salaries are balanced. If Toews put up similar offensive numbers hed be making a lot more than Kane.

I dont know why folks think this is a similar situation as to Marner-Matthews.

 

[Menzinger]

Lol even other guys in the media are calling Dreger out for his shilling during this Marner negotiation

 

[Walshy7]

I think Marner is all but guaranteeing himself to not be here over the long haul. I think he gets signed. I think he gets what he wants, 10.5+ for 5 years, but I think he gets traded before Rielly gets resigned. Rielly will be more important by then and Marner, Art Ross or not, will be highly moveable at that time.

By then the team will be built around 2 top 10 Cs and highly mobile and intelligent D. Oh well. Would've been cool to have him throughout his career and see him hold all the leaf records for offense. Not likely now.

Marner will not get an art ross, that's part of the problem with his demands. There are far more players between him and an art ross, including wingers which is the point he isn't worth being the highest paid winger. Matthews at least is very possibly a chance to win a rocket at some point

 

[Walshy7]

Lol even other guys in the media are calling Dreger out for his shilling during this Marner negotiation

as he should, he very clearly is doing the public negotiations for the marner camp. I think paul and co thought mitch was more loved by leaf fans than he is, and tey thought the outrage would be putting so much pressure on dubas. From what I see it doesn't appear to be working

 

[Legendary]

Maybe he’s mad we chose Dubas over Hunter.

 

[WTFMAN99]

You made an interesting point previously about grudges in that it would be interesting to know had Marner ELC included all rookie performance Schedule A bonuses in his 1st deal and if Marner feels he missed out on, that he is now trying to recover on his new deal.

Entry Level Performance Bonuses

Entry Level Contracts are eligible for Performance Bonuses. There are two categories of Performance Bonuses:
"A" Level Bonuses
"A" Bonuses are worth $212,500 each, to a maximum of $850,000 (maximum 4 achieved). They are achieved by each of:
-20 goals
-35 assists
-60 points
-Top six in Time on Ice among forwards on team (minimum 42 games)
-Top six in +/- among forwards on team (minimum 42 games)
-0.73 points per game (minimum 42 games)

All 3 seasons Marner hit those thresholds, so he would have lost $850k X 3 [$2.55 mil total] as a result.

Are his current demands including reimbursement for lost wages? ie $2.55 mil over 5 years term = $ .510k per season.

Marner's $11 mil X 5 year ask might actually be $10.5 mil X 5 years + .500K [lost wages] on ELC contract. As that is the only way he would really be holding a grudge over past issues that impacted him financially.

10M x 8 years

If his projected value on an 8 year deal is approx 9.6ishM that is 400k overpayment per year, he gets 3.2M so he got his money back + interest.