Shaman464
No u
1997 was an entirely different league. I wouldn't use an example prior to the cap to make this point.
Speculation: Mission Impossible: The search for a #1
- Thread starter The Zermanator
- Start date
Shaman464
No u
Boston also had a goalie go into beast mode, and their defense aren't made of the Lebda's that Detroit's is.
Shaman464
No u
Ok so you tell me then, if not drafting and developing for the next few years higher and more often than we have in 30 years, what would you do and then compare that to the rosters of the leagues top teams and recent cup champs?
Hammettf2b
oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg
Don't you know you can only rebuild through the draft with only lottery picks!!!
We didn't draft high
We didn't draft often
We didn't develop for the future
Dont be cute with semantics. If you dont see any difference between those years and today you're clueless
Lol, so the DRW are forever doomed to draft poorly?
Why have scouts, why even attend the draft
Give me a break
Hammettf2b
oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg
So they weren't even trying when it came to the draft from 2000-2016? Why even have scouts, whey even attend the draft
Give me a break
I answered your question of where the Flames got their defensive talent. I even broke it down to impact players and non impact players. I find it funny that all of their impact players were acquired through trades or free agent signings.
Do you expect me to say "drafting and developing isn't important"? Because if you do, you're barking up the wrong tree. Obviously it's important, but some of us like proactive solutions and don't want the team to sit with their thumb up their ass for the next 10 years waiting for something to work out the way you are suggesting.
Hamilton was acquired with Calgary's 15th OA pick and two picks they acquired from Washington after drafting four 1st round picks in the previous two drafts. Timing was right and price was low, something I support emulating.
Stone was acquired for a 3rd and a cond. 5th when Calgary was finally ready to compete for a playoff spot
Hamonic was of course an off season move, the price was steep
I am not suggesting doing noting for 10 years other than drafting.
I am simply suggesting trading away multiple high picks, top prospects or good young roster players right now isn't the right time. If we can get a trouba for a late 1st that we acquired at the deadline plus a depth dman than have at it, I would champion that. In fact if we can trade all 3 of our 2nd this draft for the 22nd OA and then pckg that with Bowey for Trouba then Bobs your uncle.
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
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Yeah, i've been advocating this approach for years now. There's no "rule" you need an Erik Karlsson type #1 defender - plenty of teams are successful with a bunch of "just" good defenders.
The only trade I sign off on is someone who is controllable and fits in the age range. Someone like Trouba fits that category. Werenski, should he ever be available, fits that category. Hanifin fit that category when he was traded. Those are the scenarios when moving a quality prospect or draft selection
The only caveat is how many Cup winners haven't had that sort of D? Parity is going to force some of these things to change, but until we start seeing teams win it all with some less conventional make-ups, it's going to be hard to really embrace some things like a blueline by committee. Boston was close to this idea...but they lost.
Penguins without Letang is the recent example. But, you know, Crosby/Malkin.The only caveat is how many Cup winners haven't had that sort of D? Parity is going to force some of these things to change, but until we start seeing teams win it all with some less conventional make-ups, it's going to be hard to really embrace some things like a blueline by committee. Boston was close to this idea...but they lost.
WingedWheel1987
Registered User
It’s funny. When this team was on the down swing but still mildly competitive many were calling for a rebuild. The narrative was Illitch and Holland’s commitment to “The Streak” was foolhardy and we needed to focus on drafting and developing the next generation.
Now that we are finally committed to that path the narrative seems to be shifting towards something along the lines of we cannot and/or will not draft/develop a 1D.
Granted not all posters were behind both viewpoints but many definitely were. I guess the truth is the majority, no matter the issue, just doesn’t have the patience to let things ride out for a few years.
We will find our 1D via the draft or UFA/RFA or trade in due time folks. The fact that we didn’t land Karlsson/Trouba/Byram(unlikely) isn’t the end of the world. I am confident that Yzerman will pull the trigger to land our 1D when the best opportunity for our team actually presents its self. Patience is a virtue and that was Yzerman’s message from day 1. We’re lucky to have him.
Now that we are finally committed to that path the narrative seems to be shifting towards something along the lines of we cannot and/or will not draft/develop a 1D.
Granted not all posters were behind both viewpoints but many definitely were. I guess the truth is the majority, no matter the issue, just doesn’t have the patience to let things ride out for a few years.
We will find our 1D via the draft or UFA/RFA or trade in due time folks. The fact that we didn’t land Karlsson/Trouba/Byram(unlikely) isn’t the end of the world. I am confident that Yzerman will pull the trigger to land our 1D when the best opportunity for our team actually presents its self. Patience is a virtue and that was Yzerman’s message from day 1. We’re lucky to have him.
The Zermanator
In Yzerman We Trust
- Jan 21, 2013
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It's not that they cannot or will not, it's that they have not.
Those two positions are not contradictory at all. I wanted Holland to start the rebuild in earnest sooner because the writing was on the wall and forcing things would only slow the decline. I also want the front office to be more open to and aggressive with exploring trade and FA to address the hole. Like I said, it's not that they can't/won't, it's that they haven't and the draft has proven a very unreliable avenue for acquiring the thing we need.
We just saw a #1D get moved for the price you'd expect for a #3. We haven't heard any indication whatsoever of any kind of significant offer Yzerman made, not from the Detroit beat writers or the national press so we're left to speculate but it sure doesn't seem like the effort was all that aggressive. Very disappointed at missing out on what appeared to be a perfect golden opportunity.
Lets say we hear SY never made an offer .
If you had go speculate, why didnt he?
- he dosent and his staff don't think JT is all that good?
- the ask from Detroit was somehow much more than NY(tin foil hat level stuff)
-SY and his staff don't think we're anywhere close to competing and solely wanna stickpile assets?
- he heard or found out JT and his agent are hard to deal with?
- he heard or found out JT dosent want to play here?
The Zermanator
In Yzerman We Trust
- Jan 21, 2013
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- If they don't think Trouba is all that good, well then they're just plain wrong. And that's very concerning moving forward from a talent evaluation perspective.
- Don't see why NYR would shoot themselves in the foot by heading off a bidding war by pricing out one of the potential bidders.
- Trouba is a 25 yr old top pairing D. He is an asset to stockpile.
- Teams were not allowed to speak to the agent beforehand, don't know how he would have found that out. And given the context of why Trouba wanted out of Winnipeg, I don't think the situation can necessarily be attributed to being 'hard to deal with'.
- Not all players want to play in their hometown, but you rarely hear of players who specifically don't want to play in their hometown. I can't think of a single one. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but weren't you one of the posters who didn't want to spend assets because you were so sure he'd want to come here for free as a UFA next year anyway?
I did not want to spend assets correct
I do not think he is all that good
I said if he comes here for free then fine but if he signs elsewhere its cause he never wanted to come here in the first place so who cares
I have been very consistent
I also said he wasnt worth alot nor would he return alot(and was mightily ridiculed by countless Jets fans for it).
So do you think SY made a legit offer? If not, why not?
You answered why I think he didnt but just by asking other questions.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Trouba's agent is the same as Larkin so I hope he wraps his head around that in the next five years....
I think by return one thing we have to probably point out is that the Winnipeg Jets feel a heck of a lot differently about Pionk than most of the casual hockey fans that saw massive regression in him this year.
I think for us to acquire him likely involved us pulling off an additional deal that couldn't be put together fast enough. But I am not sure we had a Pionk level player in Winnipeg eyes.
Our best likely available roster players are AA and Mantha for a big return. While yes both are better than Pionk in terms of asset evaluation they also have a similar problem to what the Jets just encountered with Trouba. They are arbitration eligible and can force their way to UFA by gambling and accepting a one year arbitration settlement. While already dealing with it I doubt it was something Chevy was excited to relive especially with AA actually having the worst agent in the business in my opinion, far worse than Overhardt for me. Bad news for us Ferris is also Zadina's agent...
I think Trouba would extend here I don't think that was the issue. Now would Yzerman not give him a certain amount, possibly I guess. Personally I would pay him the 9 X 8 and call it a day, but I understand those that have pauses and aren't using cap percentages still and haven't quite acknowledged what these guys are heading towards making. I hope we are ready with 9 X 7 or possibly even a little more if Trouba doesn't sign in New York long-term. I doubt that, but that is our hope now.
Ken Holland wasn't lying when he talks about the reality of the other team wanting to talk to you. It sounded like our talks consisted of Hronek which was a firm no and I think we all agree with that and then not a whole lot more happening.
I don't think you can be angry, it is just most of us feel this was a beatable offer, absent knowing what the pro scouts and Chevy think of Pionk. Also what was likely to be around with their old first round pick. We are going to need this piece eventually though as he is a legit #1 D-man and we had the hope of collecting the hometown boy in terms of not worrying big on the extension front. Oh well, we will have to see what the next opportunity is. But as I have said before by mid-July of next year evaluation time better be over, we are deeper into the rebuild than this or we are firing out a bunch more pieces and doing a total rebuild, while dealing AA and Mantha more than likely.
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My point is that rebuilding, ie. high drafts pick was the method people like you called for. Now that we are here we should stick to the plan. The fact that we haven’t drafted a #1 dman doesn’t prevent us from doing so in the future. In fact the rebuild crowd tirelessly beat the drum that high draft picks is the most surefire way to acquire elite talent. And now that we are here we are just going to panic over the first dman to hit the trade market and retreat from that strategy?That’s crazy
Again, it’s about timing. Is this team ready to compete? I’m not sure. But giving up prospects like Cholowski/hronek and a 1st round pick isn’t a wise move for a rebuilding team lacking talent. Which again, is the situation we collectively called for. You can suggest Trouba was traded for a moderately low price but we still have to beat that price. Is Cholowski + 36 a better deal for Winnipeg than Pionk + 24? Doubt they would see it as such.
I also remember the “purgatory” term being thrown around anytime some suggested anything that didn’t involve rebuilding through the draft. And now we’ve gone full circle on that?
And to be clear, I was all for adding Trouba at the right price but patience needs to be the strategy.
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Gniwder
Registered User
It takes longer with the salary cap because you can't go out and buy an All Star roster like the WIngs did back in the 90's.
It took Ovechkin 13 seasons in the NHL before winning the Cup if you want a salary cap era example.
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